Well the holidays are gone, gave a nice bonus to the guys, took them out for dinner, one guy (call him Tom) in particular, loaned him my car for a month while his was getting fixed, paid for a weeks worth of bereavement when his dad died. Now, here we go. Been trying to grow my business, thought I could trust Tom to run several jobs and handle several contractors. Boy was I wrong. He has 7 years experience and has been with me for a year. I noticed that all his jobs were taking too long to complete. When I approached him on this issue he always pointed the finger at the contractor, homeowner etc. never at himself. Some of the contractors were screwed up so I passed it off as a loss and tried to implement different approaches to deal with these problems. Nothing worked... Jobs were still coming in late. One day one of my employees came to me and said that he can't work with Tom any more because when he is on the job he never lifts a finger to help out he just sits in a chair and barks out instructions. He is on the phone all the time and will not put his tools on. After hearing this I started to get angry. I decided to call one of the contractors and ask him what was going on. After prodding him for a while he finally opened up. The contractor told me that Tom did no more than 2 hours of work a day. He took 2 to 3 hour lunches. No wonder the guys are mad. So I decided to go to the jobs and check in. Remember I trusted Tom and was trying to leave it up to him to do the right thing. The first day that I checked in I saw him wandering aimlessly with no tools on. I confronted him and told him that I am not making any money on his jobs and that he must put his tools on and work hard to get this job done fast, I said the same thing to a couple of other guys as well. I was pretty angry at this point and it showed. I came back the next day and stood in the hallway as they took a 1 hour and 50 minute lunch. Jimmy was lying on some sheetrock sleeping and Tom was sitting in the same chair for that time. I could not go inside because my anger was too great and I didn't want to loose control. I fired Jimmy that day and confronted Tom. He did not deny or confess. The problem is Tom knows the ins and outs of some of these jobs which are in various stages of completion, if I let him go it would be difficult to complete. I called other contractors and got similar stories one of which fired us. It's been a rough few weeks. Paid enemies I tell you!!!

[This message has been edited by tsolanto (edited 02-11-2003).]

An infuriating situation to be sure. It's bad enough if anyone working for you is slacking off, but it hits that much harder if it's someone you've gone out of your way to help out.

Having a 'trusted' subordinate drag my hard earned good name down would be hard for me to contain.....

tsolanto, i feel your pain. I have always been a hands on boss. Just in the last six months we have grown to having three crews working in different places. I basically play fireman and put out the flames on my crew. I have the same problem going on right now.

One crew leader is good as gold and he puts his heart into his work, i have never caught him loafing on a job. He gets his materials together every morning and heads straight to the job. If he has the smallest problem that he isn't 100% sure of he will call and get my input. He runs the job right and on time. We worked together for another company years ago when i was getting my training and have always had a good relationship. I take care of the guy and he takes care of me.

I hired a guy about 7 months ago from another company and it has been a nightmare for the most part. He drags out the jobs, rubs my help the wrong way, loves to point at say "get your @ss over there and do it". I have always been one to hop in the trench first and get my hands dirty. My help is about fed up with the guy and the tension is growing. He does real neat work but it's not done the way I have taught my guys. That will be the first change I shall require which will likely end in a arguement.

The other issue is he never has his crap together. It shows on the supply tickets, one sealtight connector here, one 5/8" plaster ring there. This guy has a trailer and a truck and never keeps em stocked. Hits the supply house six times a day...worthless!

He also loves to talk on the phone and run his personal errands on my clock.

This will probably end this week though since I have written a two page employee memo addressing these issues. If it doesnt then he will be terminated.

So don't feel like the lone ranger tsolanto, it happens to all of us i guess!

tsolanto,
You have to end it now! Don't let the fact that he knows the job(s) let you talk yourself into keeping him. That just prolongs the problem and wastes more of your money. If you have now one to finish the jobs then you may have to reorganize your schedule and do it yourself until you can find a replacement.
I have one question about the guy you fired. Did you fire him because he was taking a long lunch? Wasn't he taking a long lunch because his boss was and his boss set the precedent for the job? I don't know the whole story but if the Forman didn't set the pace of the job like that would he have been a good worker? (I guess that’s more than one
Question ) What I am getting at is something a Superintendent used to tell us. "It's easier to replace one Forman than it is to replace a whole crew." The Forman sets the pace and if he is screwing off then the crew probably will too.

Nick, I didn't mention all the problems that I had with Jimmy, including drug abuse, not showing up to work etc. it was more than one issue but if I had to explain his situation that post would have gone on for days.

This is one of the big reasons that our little business has stayed a 2 or 3 person operation. Most of the time, around here,if you can find someone who has a good knowledge and work ethic,they are well on the road to becoming licensed and working for themselves.Most all business owners here must be hands on wire-yankers and box nailers or your business will quickly fail for lack of decent help. I know that we could generate a lot more cash flow if we had 3 or 4 good crews but I hear these headache stories from the 2 biggest companies here all the time. And the turnover they have will make your head spin.

[This message has been edited by ga.sparky56 (edited 02-09-2003).]

It is very hard to fire someone, at least for me it is. But I'm getting better at it. I've tried being friends with the guys, but they will take advantage of your good nature in a heart beat. I don't want to be a jerk, but I guess you have to if you want your compnay to prosper. Although it's getting harder and harder to do, I try to show up on job sites unannounced to see whats going on.

Speaking of not having supplies on the truck, one of my guys called me the other day to tell me he didn't have any 14/2 romex on the truck. I told him to wire the job in 12/2, but he didn't have enough of that either. How can you leave the shop without WIRE!

I think Jimmy must be 'code' for 'slacker'... the so-called electrician who was recommended by my realtor when I bought this house was named Jimmy. He had to schedule time for my residential work around his day job and his community service or jail time for his DWI's....

I'm really lucky to have such a great helper.

Wow.

(BTW, my helper's name is Jimmy, so there goes that theory!)

[This message has been edited by sparky66wv (edited 02-09-2003).]

Virgil,
How is Jimmy? I remember he completed some milestone a few weeks back. Is he turning into foreman material??? Maybe you could loan him to Tsolanto

Interesting topic. I am printing copies of your comments to share with my electrical class. They really think that the world owes them something.

Pros
1. You get some work done.

Cons
1. Damage your reputation as a contractor.

2. Your other employees will quickly get an attitude because others are getting away with a poor work ethic.

PearlFish, youu made me laugh. First time in awile. Thanks...

Tsolanto,

Man, when I first read the thread, just thinking about what is going on made me P@!#ED OFF!!! Too many situations of similar baloney under my belt!

I too am a "Tool Sportin', Ladder Jockey'en" Supervisor / designer / Engineer / Contractor / Broom Pusher / Document Preparer / etc.
Not the fastest worker around - and have the same "bad days" as anyone else does.
Just can't understand how some people can enjoy going to work and doing as little as possible!!! Don't even want to go into my personal dislike of excessive phone useage! Worst case scenario on the phones is when the person is walking around acting VIP, and demanding the trades people be quiet!!!


My least favorite time on projects (the turn-key projects) is that time just prior to final walk through. This is when a few spec contractors and vendors come in and do what ever is left on their part. I normally get the job of supervision and contractor consultant / rep. Gets so boring ,some times, I have come close to breaking things, just to have something to do!!!

Phone calls (for me) just go to voice mail, unless I am sitting on a job like the situations above (boring closeouts!), then I'll happily greet the incoming call!
At last, something to do!!!

I agree with Nick - dump the wandering, chair warming clown and finish the projects yourself. Something needs to be done about boneheads in the field, and non tolerance is the first step!
At least wait until the crucial projects are near end, then hand Senior Bozo a Pink Termination check!

Have my own "Wishues" regarding field personnel, but that's another story!

BTW, where are you located? Wondering if this problem is widespread or regional

Also, the "Jimmy Theory" is null and void on my end. Had a guy named Jimmy working with us at my old company (G.C.) that knew alot, ran jobs perfectly, worked while running jobs, and had a great personality / sense of humor!!!
The "Target Image" for design / Engineering of the model worker
(actually, what I would consider the best qualified to run jobs).

Virgil,

Glad to hear your Helper is doing good!!!
Even happier to know you have taken the time and trained this person well!!!
Give yourself $1,000.00 out of Petty Cash!

Dturner,

That's a great idea for classes!!! Making it known that people D**KING OFF at work will not be tolerated.

I personally would like to incorporate this into my own training plans - and use scenarios with technical lessons!

Making fun of "Job Nazis" and "Chair Warmers" will make an extreme impact!

Must stop before keyboard catches fire!

Scott35 S.E.T.

Tsolanto, Is there any way you can pay these guys on a percentage basis, and then maybe a bonus if the job if finished by a certain date that you specify? I know when I worked for a company that did this just about everyone was taking a quick lunch and working harder. It seems when the jobs I was on were paying hourly everyone just did the bare minimum. With the percentage program you dont even keep track of the hours an employee works, just give them a percentage of the final job costs.

Scott35, I will as soon as "petty cash" has $1000 in it!

lol

Wildturkey101
I have thought about incentives but it is difficult to keep the same people on the jobs all the time. If we move people around how do they get their bonus. Who gets the bonus, helpers, mechanics, juniors everyone? If everyone how do you divide it up. I was thinking 10% of the profit if we made 20% or more. How much for helpers juniors and lead men?

Sounds like this would make a good topic for another post...

[This message has been edited by tsolanto (edited 02-11-2003).]

[This message has been edited by tsolanto (edited 02-11-2003).]

Slightly off-topic aside…accuracy unknown — The fifties/sixties were the “Us” generation. Seventies/eighties brought the “Me” generation. Nineties and on it’s the “You Owe Me” generation.

I guess that I work for a small enough, yet large enough company that (with a few exceptions) bad/lazy foreman get s**t canned ASAP, and someone running another job is pulled to due double duty and get the job finished, or a very good mid level person is given a chance to finish it. That’s how I got my chance with the company. A guy made a bunch of big mistakes and was let go, and I got the chance to jump in and try to finish (with great backup on another job that I could call up) Assuming that something is not seriously messed up a good foreman can figure out what has been done and finish the work.

tsolanto: Get that guy out of there! You’ll lose a lot more money due to bad work than you will by paying someone overtime to get the job done on time! Had a helper who said something to the effect of “Well, I was looking for a job when I got this one”. That kind of attitude does not fly!

As for the tools on person subject I have spent months at a time putting my tools on and never pulling them out since I was too busy making sure that the guys were working (it actually sucks, but hey… it’s my job to run a bunch of guys), but every damn time I needed a damn pair on Kleins, I had them on me. A foreman without tools is just a sad sad site. I hate seeing guys from other trades walk on site without a tool of any type. You don’t even know what the hell they do until they talk to someone from their company. Anyways, enough from my big mouth. This is a subject that people could talk about for years over coffee.

tsolanto
You must have a good heart to take that grief as long as you have. If an employee of mine pulled that junk, he/she would have been fired long ago. I found out that I cannot afford them, and it costs three to four times as much to get back the reputation you had before the slackers ruined it.
You have had one GC fire you already, get rid of the problem before more of your customers do the same.
Good luck in the future

Elec_VA,
There comes a point, usually about 6 men, that it becomes counter productive for a Forman to try and work with the tools. And a Forman shouldn’t be expected to run more than 10 men. Of course every job is different depending on the complexity but if the Forman is trying to work with the tools instead of doing layout, ordering material and getting it staged as-builting and all the other things expected of a Forman, the end result is a crew without the tools material and layout to do the work. That is financially devastating to a job!

I totally understand, there are a lot of deadbeats out there, thats why I keep it simple and run a one man shop.

Nick, Tom had 2 men under him maybe 3 on any one of these jobs. That is why he must be a working foreman.

Good point Nick.

My current project is a 70,000sq.ft. nursing home. We have been running 8 or 9 men most of the time. This is my first experience with a larger crew after years of doing projects with 2 or 3 men.

It is a whole new ballgame. 80% of my time is spent ordering materials, coordinating work with other trades, attending progress meetings, layout, QC, and general supervision.

On the rare day when I can just run some pipe and wire it is a real joy and the day goes by much faster.

GJ

tsolanto
I know the betral you feel after trusting in someone the way you did.

I had what I thought was a friend that I hired as a apprentance. Trained him for 6 years. When he got his journeymans I gave him his own jobs to run.
Then he took his masters test and passed. I was very proud of him, even bought him a engraved watch.
Less then 6 months later he tells me he is starting his own company and is taking my only journyman with him as his partner, no notice given. The next thing he does is to contact all my customers and tells them that he is now in business and can give them a better price. Loss 2 big jobs to him right away.

Less then 3 years later he and his partner go bankrupt.

I guess that what you call karma!

NICK AND THE GOLF GUY,

THANK YOU!!!!

Forman for years have goten a bad rep for not straping on the old tool belt.
Speicaly If they are runing two or three jobs.

First off, I dont consider a REAL job two guys for a few days...thats more of a Add/Mod. my min. is two leads for every laborer.
BUT.. if the job needs a forman, then it has to be a LARGE job. 6 to 9 guys for over two weeks or more!!!! I would never dedicate a forman type guy to just one of these jobs.

The guys I call Leads need to be able to get the job done or they are just the hired help!!!

First off, I beleive that you should never bite off more than you can chew!!! That said...

It sound like this guy Mr. T is right at that point! It is the most fustrating and difficult part of a business.

My only advice would be...
If the Pricipals cant manage..get more!!!
in other words get a partner or two...

I firmly beleve that in most trades you have to be a working partner. you cant stay in the office or play golf..

best of luck guy... growing pains are hell



[This message has been edited by RandyO (edited 02-14-2003).]

RandyO
I don't play golf, I work 7 days a week. I bust my but to make a better life for myself and my family.

All I did was trust someone for a short while.

Someone which I knew for a couple of years at that point.

I got screwed...

Why is it that I can pick up a laborer off the street and pay him for the day, feed him lunch. He will never see me again and shares no responsibility.

But he works harder than anyone... Why?

Well, I dont have an answer for that, maybe, your right ontop of him and he gets paid at the end of the day... I know it was a retorical question.

But the truth is, that it is very hard to find management style help that is not finacialy motivated!!!!


Best of luck !


[This message has been edited by RandyO (edited 02-17-2003).]