ECN Forum
Posted By: kinetic Handyman or Home Owner - 02/08/03 10:04 AM
Which scares you more when you hear about them taking on electrical work? I seem to be fixing and replacing alot more handyman work then homeowner projects.
Posted By: Electricmanscott Re: Handyman or Home Owner - 02/08/03 01:14 PM
This tends to be a hot topic but i'll give my 2 cents. I would say handyman simply becuase they are more inclined to feel comfortable about what they are doing. Some homeowners tend to be nervous about electricity and are a little more careful and will ask for the correct way of doing a job. I find handymen types know just enough to be dangerous. In reality stick with a licensed electrician for your electrical work. Not that this is a gurantee for the best possible job!
Posted By: Electric Eagle Re: Handyman or Home Owner - 02/08/03 02:57 PM
The "handy"man, by far scares me more. They keep a roll of 12/2 on the truck and use it for everything. They don't seem to care for romex connectors or staples and an orange wire nut should be good enough for up to 8 wires. 15 amp breaker trips, just replace it with a 20 or 30. [Linked Image] I wish the homeowners would quit letting these guys do electrical work, but they seem more concerned with saving a few dollars than their own personal safety.
Posted By: sparky Re: Handyman or Home Owner - 02/08/03 03:57 PM
Thru many DIY threads here i sense there is a grey area concerning handymen.
DIYers constitute a growing lifestyle in our economy which is the drive behind the big orange plcae, Bob Vila style shows, etc.
It is a commercialized concept that is here to stay.

'Handymen' are those whom seek to make a living by peddaling a trade they know to varing degrees. Obviously they are solicited by those whom seek the economic difference bettween DIY and a bona-fide tradesperson.

Unfortunatley, the punishment in many locale's justifies the crime, so the saga continues with little to no voice from the trade orginizations as to soliciting the 'qualified' ( note i did not say license) that we as tradespersons support.

This, because it is politically incorrect to confront the HD's, Bob V's and other exponetially growing DIY havens that handymen hide behind.

Cowards, the lot of them!

Sadly,DIYers & Handymen continue to be a completely different animal, yet not viewed as such.



[This message has been edited by sparky (edited 02-08-2003).]
Posted By: rowdyrudy Re: Handyman or Home Owner - 02/08/03 06:45 PM
There is a "handyman" in this area. His charge is $35.00 per hour and he does plumbing, HVAC, electrical, carpentry, roofing, etc, and from what I have seen and heard does nothing well. He appeals to the elderly homeowners in the area due to his pricing. He was one of those opposed to a code. That one we will be watching!
Rowdy
Posted By: George Re: Handyman or Home Owner - 02/08/03 07:55 PM
Many homeowners, handymen, and licensed professionals do good work.

Many do poor work.

You will not make a person do good work by simply requiring him to be licensed, insured and inspected.
Posted By: sparky Re: Handyman or Home Owner - 02/08/03 08:11 PM
Allow me to quote myself here George,
Quote
'qualified' ( note i did not say license)

~you either have an NEC and know to use it or don't*
~you are a continuous student of study in this trade or you don't*
~you have an understanding of the hazrds & liabilities, or you don't*

* key wordage....
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Handyman or Home Owner - 02/09/03 03:24 AM
I am working on one now.... needed another circuit from one of two subpanels installed by handyman....found both subpanels with 3 wire feeds from meter (spliced #6 with big blues in a gutted motor d/c up in the attic). Second sub was bonded to washing machine cold water pipe. What would you do? I had to tell them I couldn't add the circuit without correcting the subs first.
Posted By: kinetic Re: Handyman or Home Owner - 02/09/03 03:48 AM
I am a liscensed electrical contractor and have much to learn but common sense tells you when something just isn't right and I do have the sense to seek a higher source e.i. NEC or fellow electrician . I think to many handyman assume to much because it worked before and seem to rely on HD or Lowe's to answer their questions. I dread walking through the aisle overhearing them explain something to a handyman or even a homeowner. I also wish a homeowner would think it through when it comes to dollar signs. A true electrician might charge more per hour but almost gauranteed to get out their hair much faster and with a safer and better looking job. I will admit a handyman has his place but most don't know when to say, "you need to call a pro."
Posted By: tsolanto Re: Handyman or Home Owner - 02/09/03 01:38 PM
I work with an apartment complex that allows carpenters to do electrical upgardes in apartments. Keeps me very busy repairing all their screwups.
Posted By: sparky Re: Handyman or Home Owner - 02/09/03 04:13 PM
yes they constitute a good part of my biz also, no i do not nor will i ever advocate these sorts doing electrical work for a living.

however, the powers that be sadly thru complacency do, after all what are 300+- electrical deaths compared to 50,000 anual roadway deaths right?

OSHA is the only orginization that i know of that addresses 'qualified' (see art 100)having it's base rationale be PPE knowledge.

This is about the only 'benchmark' that comes to mind, allbeit under the same dictation i would be 'qualified' to do brain surgery having knowledge of the PPE involved.

perhaps i should get a biz card??

~S (CUT rate prices)

[This message has been edited by sparky (edited 02-09-2003).]
Posted By: txsparky Re: Handyman or Home Owner - 02/09/03 08:59 PM
The homeowners need to know that.. When you pay peanuts....You get monkeys! [Linked Image]
Posted By: ga.sparky56 Re: Handyman or Home Owner - 02/10/03 01:40 AM
Built a 200a overhead service recently. The homeowner had tried to tackle it(with hd advice) after 2 days of no power, his wife beat him into submission and called someone(I was the 5th call made so he had called just about everyone in the immediate area.I was just the one that returned his call)I took down everything and started again, using some of his mat. and some of mine. He watched every move we made,which was ok, but he would say occaisionally, "the hd guy didn't tell me that". After a few of these,I quietly asked him what the hd guys qualifactions were. His reply was"they all have to have electrical training don't they?" I wonder if this is a commonly held belief?
Posted By: frenchelectrican Re: Handyman or Home Owner - 02/10/03 05:57 AM
yeah i went thru the same headache with diy that kinda of dirty word to me and some how some handyman think they are smart aleck ( i rather not say A word you know what i mean [Linked Image] ) i have one handy man he concat me alot when he feel it is too big for him to deal with it like add new plug or put fan up etc he call me in and i told him that i am more than happy to do it right and i can get it right in the first time fast he say super ( he speak french with me )
merci marc
Posted By: old Appy Re: Handyman or Home Owner - 02/10/03 07:47 AM
Personally if i have come across work that has been done by a home owner and i have to fix it, They have to pay thru the nose to get it done or i walk away.

CW
Posted By: Big A Re: Handyman or Home Owner - 02/10/03 04:59 PM
Hey ga.sparky56

I do believe that the average Hairy Homeowner thinks that Zippy at the big box stores is the all knowing. I've even had homeowners tell me that I was wiring a receptacle wrong because that's not the way Zippy told him to do it. I finally had to tell the guy that I was doing it my way. He said "But Zippy is a licensed electrician!" I said, "Do you honestly think that if he was a licensed electrician he would be working there?" He shut up about it.

I think people put way too much stock in the "Zippy's" at the big box stores everywhere.
Posted By: lighthouse Re: Handyman or Home Owner - 02/10/03 07:29 PM
ga.sparky56

"the hd guy didn't tell me that".

thats funny... [Linked Image]
Posted By: Electric Eagle Re: Handyman or Home Owner - 02/11/03 12:02 AM
Amen Big A!
Posted By: ga.sparky56 Re: Handyman or Home Owner - 02/11/03 12:22 AM
The funny thing about this adventure was his wife kept threatening to "Tie his ears in a knot" and other things that I won't repeat. My helper says this job was worth it just on entertainment value. [Linked Image]
Posted By: harold endean Re: Handyman or Home Owner - 02/11/03 04:01 AM
As someone said, I know that this is a painful subject. My 2 cents would be the handyman is more dangerous. A homeowner is working on his own house. He is going to live there and for the most part, they get inspections. Once they call for an inspection, then I get some control over the job. I can fail it if it is not right and I can make them fix it. They are grateful for the fact that I don't get mad at them, and I am willing to help them get the job right. A handyman is doing the work for money, and on someone elses house. If he calls for an inspection, he might get in trouble. So for the most part, they will not call for an inspection. They will just do the work, take the money and leave. There is (most times) no insurence in case something goes wrong. At least a homeowner policy might cover damage if the homeowner does his own work.
Posted By: LearJet9 Re: Handyman or Home Owner - 10/30/05 01:03 PM
Our electricians, like most, do work on the side. One of them went to a house to give and estimate to install a new counter top range and seperate wall unit. (Kitchen remodel) A week later the woman called him back to have him do the job. She told him she priced it with 3 people, the other 2 being handyman services, they were more money than the licensed electrician so he got the job. I asked "how did that make you feel Bud?" He just walked away shaking his head!!
Posted By: frank Re: Handyman or Home Owner - 10/30/05 01:38 PM
In Ontario to work on residential other than your own you must be licensed.The home owner bares the responsibility to hire a licensed,insured person.If the handyman fries himself the homeowner pays the price.If it's a licensed sparky he must insure himself and the home owner does not pay.If a roofer takes a dive and is uninsured again the homeowner pays.So when an accident happens you can lose everything if you hire the wrong people.
Posted By: DougW Re: Handyman or Home Owner - 10/30/05 03:59 PM
I remember responding to a thread like this when I first visited here...

Handymen are more dangerous, because they HO's who pay them think that they know what they're doing... and they can be left with a worse situation that if they'd bought one of these:

[Linked Image from images.amazon.com]

and just followed the advice inside.

That said... I started out as a "pirate" electrician - $25-30/hr, a little knowledge, but an understanding of the Code and basic (for us) safety considerations. I lost several jobs because I wouldn't simply run more lamp cord through the hole in the wall.

Quote
Well, it's not like you're lcensed or anything...(Joe Homeowner)

To which I had the following response(s):

A) Try and get a licensed electrician in here for what I'm charging you... I'll wait.

B) Even though I'm not licensed, by following the Code the only thing they can get me for is operating w/o a license... not the additional charges of endangerment by doing blatantly unsafe work. If you want tyo run lamp cord, that's your business. I'll pack up my tools and wait at the firehouse for the call back here when you do.

I even had out (then) AHJ tell me he felt more comfortable with me "assisting" the homeowners [Linked Image] because he'd seen my work, and felt it was safer than some of the guys who were licensed but were "still working off the '58 Code".

[This message has been edited by DougW (edited 10-30-2005).]

[This message has been edited by DougW (edited 10-30-2005).]
Posted By: Tiger Re: Handyman or Home Owner - 10/31/05 02:04 AM
Several years ago a couple had their son (the handyman) add an addition to their home. He moved the POCO lines to the other side of the house (I have no idea how) & tied them to the soffit. Then he taped them to his new service lines.

He got some instructions from who-knows & didn't quite understand that the support is the neutral. When he threw the main he noticed the insulation bubbling & turned it off. Unfortunately it powered up the 120 at 240 & fried a few things.

When I was doing the repair he said something to me & I looked him in the eye & said "You're lucky to be alive".

Dave
Posted By: mbhydro Re: Handyman or Home Owner - 10/31/05 02:46 AM
Regarding the big box store staff it all depends on what store you go in to.

The store near me has 3 qualified electricians working as sales associates. Two are retired contractors trying to supplement their pension income and the other is a hydro plant operator (industrial electrician) who fell off a ladder and fractured his ankle and can't climb anymore. He was placed there by workplace compensation to get him off their payroll.

Unfortunately they also have the girl working in the gardening center working in that department part time as well.
Posted By: sponge Re: Handyman or Home Owner - 10/31/05 02:06 PM
Everytime time I'm waiting at the local HD checkout line, I have to look at the face of that Black and Decker wiring book cover and chuckle (Ground wire wrapped counter clockwise.) They probly painted the outlet and wires blue because no one could say for sure where the black wire went! - J
Posted By: SvenNYC Re: Handyman or Home Owner - 10/31/05 03:42 PM
Wow. You're right!! Good eye, Sponge!!

And I think the neutral wire is back-stabbed.

There doesn't appear to be anything wrapped around the screw. LOL
Posted By: winnie Re: Handyman or Home Owner - 10/31/05 04:06 PM
Sponge, if you look closely, you will see that the ground wire on that particular receptacle should be wrapped counter-clockwise. The receptacle on the cover is one of the little known 'mirror' patterns, NEMA 5-15MR. These are usually found on the front of ambulances and other emergency vehicles. If you look at a conventional NEMA 5-15R receptacle, then with the ground slot 'up', then the smaller slot (the ungrounded conductor connection) is on the _left_ side, and the larger slot (the grounded conductor connection) is on the right side. These concept is similar to subway car lightbulbs with left handed screw-shell threads.

While most screws that we use are 'right handed', and tighten by turning clockwise, the mirror pattern receptacles use only left handed screws. This is a safety measure required by UL so that if an untrained individual manages to grab a mirror pattern receptacle by mistake, none of the screws will work properly and they will quickly notice their error.

I have no idea why Black and Decker would place a picture of such an esoteric item on the front cover of a home wiring book. Maybe someone who worked on the book wires amublances.

( *grin* )

-Jon
Posted By: Texas_Ranger Re: Handyman or Home Owner - 10/31/05 05:07 PM
Quote
I think people put way too much stock in the "Zippy's" at the big box stores everywhere.
Yup... all around the world!
I won't _ever_ forget the Austrian box store guy trying to tell my dad the 1+N breakers (that actually fuse the hot and only switch the neutral) are safer than single poles because they work like GFIs...
Posted By: John Crighton Re: Handyman or Home Owner - 10/31/05 06:14 PM
Jon, the toughest part about installing those "MR" series devices is finding the face plates with the left-hand screws. They sometimes have them at topeD emoH.

:-)
Posted By: Attic Rat Re: Handyman or Home Owner - 10/31/05 07:47 PM
... Yeah, but then you have to go and find appliances and cord caps that accomodate the mirror NEMA/AMEN configuration,..could be quite costly,..re-acquiring a houseful of cord and plug appliances.. I would rather lop the cord ends off,and solder the cord to the receptacle conductors directly..sort of a hard/soft wire compromise..I have a box of single pole toggle switches that I'm returning to my supply house because the dern'd things say "off" when the toggle is up,..confuses alot of customers..and the terminal screws are on the wrong side of the switch...or could they too be a mirrored version of our old,trusty standard?? [Linked Image] [Linked Image]

PS,... actually had a hoot driving my counter guy crazy,..I asked for a 2-gang combination toggle and duplex receptacle plate,and after he'd brought it out along with the other stuff I'd ordered,..I yelled,.."NO,..THIS IS WRONG"..he looked at me real puzzled-like,and said "ain't that what you asked for"?? I said "No,..I asked for a combo plate with the duplex receptacle on the LEFT side,now go and get me the right one,okay??"...had him goin' for a good 12 minutes...then he threw it at me... [Linked Image] [Linked Image]
[Linked Image from images.google.com]
Russ



[This message has been edited by Attic Rat (edited 10-31-2005).]
Posted By: SvenNYC Re: Handyman or Home Owner - 10/31/05 07:52 PM
OK, either this is a joke that dense me didn't catch....or....is this for real? Hey, excuse my newb-ness (even though I've been here for...three or four years now?) [Linked Image] [Linked Image]

BTW, those left-hand threaded lampholders and bulbs are also commonly used for festoon lighting in construction sites in New York City. I guess they don't want the construction-workers stealing the lightbulbs. [Linked Image]

[This message has been edited by SvenNYC (edited 10-31-2005).]
Posted By: mxslick Re: Handyman or Home Owner - 10/31/05 09:35 PM
Quote
PS,... actually had a hoot driving my counter guy crazy,..I asked for a 2-gang combination toggle and duplex receptacle plate,and after he'd brought it out along with the other stuff I'd ordered,..I yelled,.."NO,..THIS IS WRONG"..he looked at me real puzzled-like,and said "ain't that what you asked for"?? I said "No,..I asked for a combo plate with the duplex receptacle on the LEFT side,now go and get me the right one,okay??"...had him goin' for a good 12 minutes...then he threw it at me...

Good one, Russ!! Reminds me of my Air Force days when we'd send the new guy out to the flightline to get a bucket of jetwash...... [Linked Image]

edited to add:

What scares me the most is seeing how one local AHJ does his own electrical work.... [Linked Image]

[This message has been edited by mxslick (edited 10-31-2005).]
Posted By: electure Re: Handyman or Home Owner - 10/31/05 11:55 PM
[Linked Image]

The reason the recp is blue is so the homeowner will know that it is on the CØ of his single phase service
Posted By: vlad_tepish Re: Handyman or Home Owner - 11/01/05 02:46 AM
who told hd it was ok to give elec advice in the first place?are they liable if there advice gets someone killed?and who is monitoring the advice the 18 year kid in the lighting section is giving?
Posted By: sponge Re: Handyman or Home Owner - 11/01/05 01:58 PM
Winnie: You had me going for a second there. I was actually trying to visualize this special ambulance outlet untill I reached the left handed screw-shell threaded subway lightbulb!. (1st year apprentice here...) I find it hard to beleive that they can get past all of the liability issues with books like these. They must have one hell of a disclaimer. They should have just shown the reversed image of an open service panel... with everything painted blue.

[This message has been edited by sponge (edited 11-01-2005).]
Posted By: winnie Re: Handyman or Home Owner - 11/01/05 03:33 PM
Just to clarify a bit: the NEMA 5-15MR was a joke. But the left handed lightbulbs are reality.

Scroll about 3/4 of the way down this page: http://www.nycsubway.org/articles/historyindependentsubway.html

-Jon
Posted By: pauluk Re: Handyman or Home Owner - 11/01/05 04:06 PM
Thanks guys -- Best laugh I've had for days! [Linked Image]

I can't get a Johnny Cash song out of my head now:

The one on the right was, on the left,
And the one in the middle was on the right....



Quote
I have a box of single pole toggle switches that I'm returning to my supply house because the dern'd things say "off" when the toggle is up,..

Hey, you got a batch intended for Britain by mistake! [Linked Image]
Posted By: John Crighton Re: Handyman or Home Owner - 11/01/05 06:13 PM
Jon, you and I seem to read a lot of the same stuff... I'll bet you even have a copy of "NY's Forgotten Substations - The Power Behind the Subway."

For anybody who has an interest in historical electrical work, the web site Jon posted above is a treasure trove of technical information and photos. How did they convert 11,000 volt 25 Hz power to 600 volt DC before the invention of high-power rectifiers? You gotta see it to believe it.
Posted By: JJM Re: Handyman or Home Owner - 11/01/05 09:21 PM
As a DIY homeowner who takes electical work very seriously, I enjoy reading and learning from this forum. I'm awestruck by the collective knowledge of the members here.

I can certainly understand the apprehension by the pros here of DIY'ers doing their own electrical work. Hopefully you'll find this DIY'ers work at least decent, so I humbly submit my standby generator installation (I can just hear the gasps now) for all to see:

Generator itself:

[Linked Image from mysite.verizon.net]

Note: The LB and galvanized pipe on the left side coming out of the house is the grounding conductor. Our code requires the GEC protected in piping and bonded at both ends. This was the same for the cold water pipe ground inside too! PITA.

Pipe work:

[Linked Image from mysite.verizon.net]

Left to right:

- 1" for current carrying conductors (#6) and ground (#10)
- ½" for control wires (#12)
- ¾" galvanized gas line

Here's the whole setup:

[Linked Image from mysite.verizon.net]

I know, those walls need a fresh coat of paint! The BX is admittedly a little sloppy, since this was a panel changeout - it WILL get cleaned up. In any event, left to right: 200A 40 panel, 200A ATS, 60A disco for genny, 200A main disco, 200A meter pan. Below the main panel is a J-box for the X-10 amplifier, and next to it is a Leviton whole house surge suppressor. (Structured media center is on the other end of the house.)

By the way, that big J-box next to the water meter (circa 1952) that the electric meter is connected to... that feeds <b>four</b> of my neighbors! I get the power first from the street.

Closeup of the ATS guts:

[Linked Image from mysite.verizon.net]

Yeah, I know the red in black phase are reversed (came into the meter pan that way) but does it really make a difference on single phase? That little black box mounted on the inside lower left, that's the trickle charger for the genset starting battery.

Another closeup of the ATS (low voltage side):

[Linked Image from mysite.verizon.net]

Note the neutral is switched -- a "separately derived" system.

Closeup of the 60A disco:

[Linked Image from mysite.verizon.net]

Since this is a separately derived system, notice the neutral bonding is the disco.

... fire away folks!

Joe

[This message has been edited by JJM (edited 11-01-2005).]
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