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Posted By: renosteinke Generator Success - 01/22/16 01:37 PM
It worked!

Naturally, I had to find this out at 3AM in a freezing ice / rain storm.

It's amazing how quickly the house cools down, when there's a freezing rain falling. hence, the generator that I bought last summer.

Though claimed to be "40% quieter" than the industry norm, it sure sounded loud in the pre-dawn darkness. Still, thanks to my regular operation of it, I was able to get it started promptly.

I then hooked it up directly to my furnace, and I had heat. It's nice when things worked as planned. (There's no interface with the house panel at all - just a fancy way to run a cord from the furnace to the generator).

Now, two hours later, power has returned. My thanks to the PoCo folks, who have to be out in this slop, working. Before the day is out, I expect I'll lose power again.

Under "lessons learned," I can see some changes I'll have to make to the generator area. For example, a little roof / awning to keep the weather off me as I work on the little (25 amp) generator. Or, greater allowance for the ice, ice that interfered with my uncovering the machine. It won't do to make an enclosure- then have it freeze shut!

At the time of the outage, the PoCo told me to expect to be without power at least 16 hours. In reality, the outage was less than two hours. This makes me question just how much gasoline to keep on hand - it's not like I'm going to drive anywhere in an ice storm. At present, 16 hours is about how long I can run. That's more fuel than I use all summer mowing grass. Do I really want to store more (even with a fuel stabilizer)?

Face it .... if a storm kills my power, it's also very possible I'd have a pretty long drive to get gas.


Posted By: ghost307 Re: Generator Success - 01/22/16 03:50 PM
I think I'd build a roof on 4 short legs to keep snow of my back (and the generator). If it gets windy a sheet of visquene would break the wind and make my life easier getting the thing started. You might even find something at the big box store like a blow-molded plastic enclosure that would work.

I don't like the idea of storing a large amount of fuel for a long time either but on the occasion where I might need 10-20 gallons 'just in case' I would just dump that in the truck's fuel tank after the need went away and keep a smaller amount on hand until the next time.

Maybe you could start the generator up to get the house nice and toasty and then kill the power until it gets cool inside again. That way you wouldn't be burning fuel continuously.
Posted By: LarryC Re: Generator Success - 01/22/16 05:41 PM
Depending on the unit, most gasoline engines can be fitted to run on propane or natural gas. HP will drop about 20% on propane, and a little more on natural gas. There are also kits that allow you to run both in a either or configuration. That may be more useful with respect to long term operation and fuel flexibility.

In extreme cold weather, the propane tank(s) may need some heating in order to keep up with fuel demand.
Posted By: ghost307 Re: Generator Success - 01/22/16 06:29 PM
Larry has a good point.
Storing propane is safer than storing gasoline/diesel and it lasts a lot longer before going bad.
You can probably stick your tanks in a more protected area and just pipe the fuel to the genny.
Posted By: renosteinke Re: Generator Success - 01/22/16 10:52 PM
Those are good points, but ...

Perhaps I was not clear that I am using a portable, job-site generator, and not a permanently mounted one. Capacity is 6000 rated watts (25 amps at 240) and 7500 'surge' watts.

In truth, it's likely big enough to run my house- but it's not the right generator for that job.

My usual fuel reserve is about 6 gallons in the 6.6 gallon tank, plus 5 gallons, stored in two smaller gas cans. If I'm reading the literature right, this is enough for about 20 hours of operation.

"Typical" outages have been only a few hours; today has had three outages of less than two hours each. The longest outage was a summer event that lasted three days.

Not that these events are without their entertainment value. With the sub-station behind me, I often get to watch fireworks when the power fails. The 3-day event was caused by a 15-minute (or less) windstorm as a tornado formed directly overhead, knocking down a long line of power poles.

I had begun a little "doghouse" in which to park the generator; this storm has shown a need for a 'little roof,' such as what Ghost speaks. A raised walk is also a good idea.

My main feeling this morning was one of surprised relief; this time, I could do something besides sit inside and shiver.

I had no problems starting the generator, even though I was half-dressed and half-awake and in the dark at the time. This I attribute to my monthly maintenance routine. Not only was the equipment ready to run, but I had "programmed" the necessary moves through repetition. Let's face it: this was no time to be fumbling with a flashlight and the owners' manual!

Another tiny detail: I felt a real need to add a 'night light' to my indoor receptacle, just to let me know power was available, and to make it easier to plug in the furnace. P&S makes receptacles with built-in night lights; I'll have to get some of those!
Posted By: LarryC Re: Generator Success - 01/23/16 12:55 AM
Depending on the generator engine configuration, you might be able to add the propane injector plate under the carburetor to make the work unit dual fuel.

Add the shut off solenoid valves, external pressure regulator, and propane hose, and you now have a generator that is dual fuel.
Posted By: HotLine1 Re: Generator Success - 01/23/16 02:39 AM
Reno:

One of those 'pop-up' canopies from a big box will keep you dry unless it's raining sideways. 8x8 or 10x10, are handy unless it's really windy.

I ran a 9k portable gen for 15 days at my home, after hurricane Sandy. Used the 240 volt 30amp twistlock, 10/3 NM into a 2 pole 30 QOB, as backfeed to panel and selected my loads.

Hopefully, with the impending blizzard-nor'easter heading to me tonite into Sunday AM, my POCO will say 16 hrs and be back on in 2 hrs.



Posted By: ghost307 Re: Generator Success - 01/23/16 03:13 AM
I was thinking of something like this: http://www.homedepot.com/p/Rubbermaid-6-ft-4-in-x-4-ft-8-in-Slide-Lid-Shed-1800005/203137956

You could leave it open when the generator has to run; and once you find the right size unit you don't have to do anything other than put it together.
Posted By: gfretwell Re: Generator Success - 01/23/16 07:36 AM
I have a propane kit for my 5500 w generator but I never installed it. I have never even had the generator running. It is just like it came from the factory. I pull it over every now and then to slosh the oil around. I have a boat so having 50 gallons of gas around is not unusual. I just got the propane kit in case we had a real long outage and the end was not in sight any time soon. I also have a 100 gallon propane tank in the ground here.
Posted By: renosteinke Re: Generator Success - 01/23/16 03:45 PM
Well! smile

I hear you, Greg, about the PoCo forecasts. Each outage was followed by a call from them, estimating it would take 18 hours to restore power. In fact, no outage exceeded 2 hours.

My respect, and thanks, to the guys who had to work in that slop!

A pop-up canopy is certainly worth trying - though I have doubts about them staying put in the wind.

Ghost, I like your idea. I see another model more appropriate to my use. Making the necessary holes, and finding protective bushings, ought not be a problem.

I expect such a shed will also help reduce the amount of noise the neighbors must tolerate. "Quiet" is relative - and the low roar of my generator isn't the most pleasant of sounds.

Greg, I'm not sure what you mean by 'pull it over.' I have been running mine for 15 minutes, under load, every month. This is long enough to bring everything up to operating temperatures.

Whether I "need" to do this with a small gasoline-powered generator has been debated by some. Apart from that, the monthly drill meant I already 'knew' how to start it - no fumbling about in the bad weather, wondering 'where is that choke thingy?'

As mentioned, this is a PORTABLE generator. It's enough of a hassle taking it to a job site .... I can't see myself adding all that propane and hardware to the mix.

For those who wonder: Yes, I do have the generator chained & locked to the concrete slab. Eventually, it will also have a fence around it; I had this slab purpose-built for mounting my water filtration, my air conditioning equipment, and my generator.

On the whole, it was quite nice for everything to work out yesterday. This was the first real use of the generator; I had only completed my 'inlet' for the generator power a few weeks ago.

My only real surprise was how much 'extra' capacity the generator had; it had no issues with the starting current for the furnace blower motor. (As a rule of thumb, my 3-A motor would draw 18-A at start-up; the old motor drew double the power).
Posted By: gfretwell Re: Generator Success - 01/23/16 06:40 PM
I just slosh the oil around and pull the rope a few times. This has never had gas in it.
Posted By: Texas_Ranger Re: Generator Success - 01/27/16 02:35 PM
I've been thinking about this too although we haven't had a power cut for years and never one lasting for more than two hours, mostly during summer peak load times too. We'd need a 3-phase generator to power the boiler and its auxilliary stuff, there's all sorts of motors connected to it (pellet feed auger etc.). I guess that makes it a diesel unit. If we get it permanently installed we can run it on fuel oil (diesel fuel is taxed much higher than chemically identical fuel oil in most European countries but legal to use in anything stationary). The biggest issue is that we currently have a circulator pump in every apartment so we'd need to devise a way to get backup power into every bathroom. Now if the planner and plumbers had had any sense they'd have installed a system without local pumps and saved us all kinds of headaches.
Posted By: ghost307 Re: Generator Success - 01/27/16 04:41 PM
Even if you figure out how to get generator power to the apartments you'd still have to find a way to keep the residents from tapping into that and adding more loads than just their recirc pump...which would then overtax the generator.
Posted By: LarryC Re: Generator Success - 01/28/16 07:09 AM
Quote
The biggest issue is that we currently have a circulator pump in every apartment so we'd need to devise a way to get backup power into every bathroom.


Assuming the circulator pumps are part of the building heating system, not hot water circulation for potable hot water.

Are the circulator pumps for local heat distribution in each apartment? Or, are they to pull building heating water up to each apartment?

If they are used to pull heating water up to each apartment, could they be overpowered by a single higher pressure pump powered off of the emergency generator system feeding the heating plant. Not ideal but would provide heat during extended outages. Motor operated valve(s) would isolate the pump during normal operation.
Posted By: Texas_Ranger Re: Generator Success - 01/28/16 06:16 PM
The pumps operate the central heating in each apartment, a slightly crazy hydraulic setup. Without major reconfiguration I can't see any way of avoiding those pumps. Their power consumption is extremely low though, less than ten Watts, so there might be local solutions.

We're also looking into converting the system to just two central pumps but since the main pipes are severely undersized that might not work.
Posted By: ghost307 Re: Generator Success - 01/28/16 10:10 PM
Does the system not work at all without the small pumps running or does it just not work very well?
You may be able to keep people from freezing during the outages; they just wouldn't be warm and cozy.
Posted By: LarryC Re: Generator Success - 01/28/16 11:56 PM
My guess that the heating system has a small diameter single pipe central loop that runs from the boiler to the first apartment and then onto the next apartment and the next apartment and so on until the loop returns back to the boiler. Each apartment has two closely spaced tee's that draw the hot water from the main loop and circulates it around each apartment. The boiler's job is to keep the loop warm. Each apartment draws as much heat as it needs from the main loop. Turn off the apartment pump and no heat is removed from the central loop.

Concept is similar to the series connected current transformer driven lights used at airport runways. Each light draws what it needs and no worry about light intensity dropping due to voltage drop.
Posted By: Texas_Ranger Re: Generator Success - 01/29/16 03:33 PM
It's more complex than that. The main loop is a two-pipe system but there is a hydraulic shunt in every apartment that separates the two systems entirely, i.e. without the local pump running everything stays cold because the water in the main loop only goes into the shunt and back into the return pipe. It's a ridiculous setup but apparently the planner (this was only built three years ago) was worried about the pressure drop of the pipework and radiators and chose to split the system using the shunts. The thermostats control the local pumps (on/off).

Potable water is heated using a heat exchanger and another speed-controlled pump in each apartment, basically a tankless water heater minus the burner/electric element.

The whole system is garbage and I'd love to rework it but my uncle (who owns half the house) seems to be happy and doesn't want to change anything. Due to the hydraulic shunts the main pumps always need to run at 100% which makes them awfully noise and the noise carries through the pipes which happen to run right next to my bed. The system runs at 80 degrees C 24/7, heating up the rooms during summer and making everything expensive to run. Moreover, the pumps for the potable hot water are even noisier and the noise travels through the pipes into every single radiator.

A friend of mine is looking into the hydraulic side of the issue and might be able to figure out something affordable but we'll see.
Posted By: ghost307 Re: Generator Success - 01/29/16 03:37 PM
Sounds like a really weird system.
Makes you wonder why some people insist on reinventing the wheel.
Posted By: Texas_Ranger Re: Generator Success - 01/31/16 12:00 AM
Originally Posted by ghost307
Sounds like a really weird system.
Makes you wonder why some people insist on reinventing the wheel.


Absolutely! Apparently they were worried about the small main loop (restricted by the size of the abandoned chimney flue they pulled the pipes through) so they chose this strange system. Even my HVAC planner friend can't figure out what they were thinking.
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