I have heard various things over the years regarding Fed Pacific panels and breakers, and I cannot seem to get a strait answer anywhere. Figured I would throw this out there...this is also somewhat related to another thread 'Adjustable-Trip Breakers'. In that thread I mistakenly said the panel was an old GE. It is not, it is an old FP panel. A newer GE TED type breaker was installed before my time there.

1) Were FE panels and breakers outlawed?
2) NEC from my understanding cannot tell you what equip to use as long as it has a UL...correct?
3) They still sell FE breakers...how could that be legal if FE is illegal?
4) If outlawed...who outlawed them. AHJ has authority, however one inspector will say one thing and another 180 deg different.
5) I was told some liability insurance co's will not insure property with FE equip.

Golly gee- another opportunity for me to upset folks What shall I do?

Hardly anyone in the trade actually likes FPE panels- but that's a far cry from the 'sky is falling' panic the sight of an FPE panel seems to provoke in some.

To answer your questions:
1) I am not aware of any low,or code amendment, that 'outlawed' FPE panels in any way.

2) NEC only says to use listed equipment.

3) Who sells FPE breakers?The firm has been out of business for some time. True, there are folks selling used breakers, and there are other makers who make breakers that fitin FPE panels. I doubt you'll ever see a new FPE breaker for sale, though.
In the broader sense, since when did something being illegal make it illegal to sell them? Advertisers in "High Times" have made fortunes selling to the illegal marijuana growing market- and that's only one example.

4) Put up or shut up. That goes for inspectors, too. Exactly what is being said? What's their source? Otherwise, see my answer to #1.

5) Again, put up or shut up. Exactly what is being said by which insurance company? For that matter, 'liability' insurance is completely different from 'homeowners' insurance.

In practical terms, FPE being out of business really puts a bind on their continued use. Replacement breakers are quite expensive, and you can't get GFI or AFCI breakers. Other code issues (like the maximum number of disconnecting means) come into play when you try to expand.

Well, Reno, tell us how you really feel...

The Canadian equivalent is still sold and quite popular. It's called Federal Pioneer sold by Schneider Electric.

You didn't upset me at all. I appreciate your candor. The 'put up or shut up' is my attitude, and similar to my response when my supervisor was telling me about his experiences. That is why I threw it out here. I have seen no legal documentation stating FP is 'illegal'.
I wasn't talking about homeowners insurance. I was talking about a insurance carrier for a commercial property who said they would not cover the premises because of the equipment. I was also told (I know he said she said) that some liability may not cover you if installing or working with FE. Sounds ridiculous, and I am pretty sure it is false, however stranger things have happened.
Again was just throwing out there to see what some of you have heard and maybe some authority here could speak up and show documentation

The only FPE breakers in question are the Stab-Loks.
The breakers lost their UL listing in the late '70s or early '80s, but gained the listing back in 6 months or so. The Stab-Loks were only available in 15-100 amp ratings.

There were no problems reported with any of the other FPE breakers; in fact the FPE breakers were factory installed in some non FPE brand panels.

I think their transformer division is still alive and well (I might be wrong about this, though)

Where can I find this documented?

For the Stab-loks see here:

http://inspectapedia.com/fpe/fpepanel.htm


"There were no problems reported with any of the other FPE breakers; in fact the FPE breakers were factory installed in some non FPE brand panels"

I don't know of anywhere it's documented. I'm just relying on 40+ years of memories. Sorry

The way I understand this is:

FPE Stab-Loc breakers had an issue, and were supposedly recalled and replaced. Fact or fiction, I cannot swear either way.

There are listed replacement 'Stab-Loc' breakers (new) available from American Circuit Breaker, but they are not cheap.

PS: As an AHJ, I do not have the legal authority to 'outlaw' any item, nor does any other NJ AHJ.

As to any official documentation, I doubt that any of the recall info is still around. I personally never saw anything, other than a notice in a supply house. They were a big FPE distributor at the time.

As to being 'outlawed' or 'illegal' IMHO, anything that was installed in compliance with the Code that was in effect at the time of installation is 'legal'.

The panels were not an 'issue' to the best of my knowledge.

I am not aware of any insurance carriers that have issues with FPE.

Now, all that said, the 'Home Inspectors' have a field day with FPE panels. I get numerous calls from sellers, buyers, and real estate people. They all look for the same info that ShortCircuit is asking. My stock answer is basically what I stated above.

Replacements or additional breakers were $20-$25 for a single pole, AFCI are not available (AFAIK), and a replacement panel would be the best solution for a homeowner.

Electure:

Thank you for the link. IMHO, the date of 2002 seem to be incorrect. I think that the FPE issues here in NJ was in the late 70s/early 80s. The supply house I mentioned above was long gone in '02.

I did not read all the info at this time. As I said above, a replacement panel is the best solution.

BTW, I did a panel change inspection the other day, and laying next to the new Sq D Homeline are two (2) NEW FPE Stab-Locs. Both in 'retail' blister cards, quite dusty. Price labels from Rickels (Home Center; long gone) $2.79!!

Thanks for responding electure. Please do not take offense, but I do not take info off that website as being legitimate. First off I am always skeptical of a site that has 'pedia' at the end. Maybe if I took the hours to research the site I may realize I am wrong. But I did not see any links to an organization or authority on the matter. The article is written by someone and it seems to me it is affiliated with some class action suite in NJ. Who knows what the author's agenda is.
I will take all of your comments into consideration and I appreciate the discussion. I guess my best step is to just ask the AHJ myself and if he makes any claims about what isn't legal on FP I will ask for documentation.

One point to consider is that most of these panels are now between 30 and 50 years old. FPE or not, 30 to 50 year old panels and breakers could have issues.

I think that site was written by a bunch of Home Inspectors

Here's a more credible source.... the CPSC's findings. It looks like they ran out of money before making any determination one way or the other.

http://www.cpsc.gov/en/Newsroom/New...ovides-Safety-Information-For-Consumers/

Thank you electure!!

I tend to agree with the opinion that the first link Electure posted was 'biased' to say the least. However, as I said, I did not take time to read thru the complete link.

Yes, old panels really should be addressed, but, unless there is some clearly visable safety issues I cannot do anything but express my opinion within the limits of the NJ Regs.

FPE had a large presence here in NJ, and IMHO, I'm glad to see them being replaced.

The HIs will have to find another'pet' item.

Whats the difference between the Federal Pacific US breakers and Federal Pioneer Stab-loc breakers we see here in Canada?

Looking at pictures they appear to be the same.

I think we have seen history made today- two pages of folks in agreement with me!

Let's put it in perspective. There are many breaker styles that have come, and gone away. Square D had their "XO" and who can forget Pushmatic? Then there's Zinsco, and the little Edison-base breakers.

Some things do better in the marketplace than others. There almost seems to be a pattern - some firm rules the roost because they're cheap, only to fade away a few years later.

I've been involved with this site since the late '90's, and if I've learned anything, WORDS MATTER. An awful; lot of assertions seem to fade away as soon as you pause to ask exactly what was said. The FPE discussion is fraught with such innuendo.

Even if you think FPE is the cats' meow of breaker design, you're left with a few major drawbacks. Those factors alone ought to ensure a steady replacement of them, over time. Nothing is forever - not even diamonds.

I wish the OP would explain under what circumstances someone said FPE was 'illegal.' Surely it wasn't a new instal. Also, what were the consequences of finding such a panel?

Inquiring minds want to know

No, it seems you want to know, and I have been on this site since you could join, perhaps in other names or emails?, but who cares?
You type arrogantly and from many of your posts over the years I know you like to stir the pot. I have been accused of the same in other circumstances so your posts don't bother me at all. For one, this is a forum and no one knows for sure if any or all of us are full of crap.
But to respond to your quote: where anywhere in my post(s) did I say someone told me it was illegal?

I have always understood FP had a batch of bad breakers that spoiled the reputation of everything made before and after.
Nobody is really sure how many bad breakers there were and the actual evidence of the problem is anecdotal at best, always "I know a guy who knew a guy" stuff.
I would get rid of an FP panel because it was old, if I was doing work in there anyway but I would not sit up nights worrying about it.

All that said, a home inspector will crucify you for anything FP, whether it is Stab Loc or not ... because they are usually working from a script they do not understand.

Do we want to talk about Ideal 65s next

If we lived in a world where that was possible...but we don't. Tell a customer you have to shut down his business and pay this $$$$$$ because it's old and I don't like it...your replaced!

Unfortunatly inspectors seem to be blind in one eye and cannot see out of the other many times. I am in Phila every day. I work in high rises, low rises, factories...blah blah blah, and some of the %&^$ I see day in and day out that an inspector in the past 5 years put a sticker on is a damn crime. I digress...point being getting good info sometimes is pretty hard. That's why sometimes over the years I come on here and throw stuff out here to see what others in the trade are experiencing.

My anecdote, There was an FP 2 pole disconnect on my water heater and when I was replacing the heater and moving it, I intentionally jumpered out the top thermostat so both eleemts came on, The breaker tripped in a couple seconds. I replaced it with a regular disconnect with the on off handle on the side.

Nah ... I'm looking forward to the next 'ground up vs ground down' thread

IIRC, back in the '70s, My Father told me of the FPE loss of UL listing, with the 50/2 Stab-Lok Devices being specifically noted.
I do not remember if these were the Full-Size Frames (1" per pole), or the "Slim" Frames (1/2" per pole).

Nevertheless, and as mentioned previously, the site of any FPE (Federal Pacific Electric) Device and/or Panelboard should not be cause for Alarm.

As with any other Manufacturer's Product Line, consider replacement if there is an apparent issue with the Equipment.

Issues would include:
A. Inadequate Capacity of Panelboard,
B. Damaged Equipment,
C. Replacement of Panelboard + Devices being more cost effective than obtaining OEM Devices,
D. Device Malfunction - i.e.:
1.: No trip during extended Overload (> 1.5x OCPD trip rating)
2.: Contacts Failure (AKA "Welded Closed")

BTW: No trip during Ground Fault or Short Circuit (L-N or L-L Fault) is not indicative of Device Failure!
When Devices having the same Time Trip-Current rating are connected in Series, it is completely normal for the "Larger" Size Device to Trip, either with or instead of the "Smaller" Branch Circuit Device.
The term "Non-Selective Coordination" is used to describe this event.

The reason behind this Non-Selective Coordination is simple:
The Upstream Device - most likely a 100A Multipole Device, is of the same Frame Type, Size and trip Characteristics, as the Smaller Branch Circuit Device; however, there is likely to be some Load being drawn by another Branch Circuit, prior to the Fault.

In this case, the Upstream Device reacts to the combined scenario as an Overload condition - which commonly results in only the Upstream Device being Tripped.

Example:
Frame Sizes = 125A, 120/240V, 10KAIC, Time-Trip Curve at 400A = .01 Seconds

100/3 Protecting Feeders supplying a 125A Panelboard, with multiple 20/1 Branch Circuit Devices installed.
Panelboard has the following Loads:
"A": 25 Amps
"B": 15 Amps
"C": 20 Amps

Ground Fault occurs on Branch Circuit #7 (Ph. A), approx. 50 Feet from the Panelboard - which results in an Instantaneous Fault Current level of 385 Amps.
Only the 100/3 Device Trips, as the Load at the Device is 410 Amps (385 + 25).

Back to the FPE devices!

FPE produced more Products, beside the "Stab-Lok" Line.
There are many FPE Devices in use today, in legacy Equipment, such as Zinsco, Westinghouse and GE Panelboards.

The Federal Pacific Transformer Company is still producing Transformers - Low Voltage Dry-Type, and Medium Voltage Oil-Immersed.
I prefer using FP Transformers, as they have the Terminals located more towards the Vertical Middle section of the Enclosure; makes Terminating large size Conductors much easier,
whereas most other Manufacturers place the Terminals at 8 to 12 Inches from the Bottom of the Enclosure; making it very difficult to Terminate large size Conductors.

Provided my 2¢
Leaving the Soapbox

--Scott (EE)

Almost forgot...



LOL!

Scott35:
Thanks for the eloquent FPE info.

If memory serves me correct, the 1/2" 15-20 amp were the issues.

There are still many FPE fused discos around. I have not come accross any FPE transformers lately.

Well it's been 30+ years, but I grew up in a 24-unit apartment complex with FPE Stab-Loks throughout... My memories:

Apartment 24 - electric water heater shorted internally (line-ground). I was like 10 years old - neighbor (also young) came running to my house, parents not home, house is full of smoke, water heater is making scary noises. Breaker never tripped. I turned it off manually. Thank heavens that worked --- at that age, I don't think I would have had any clue what to do if it hadn't.

Apartment 5 - short in electric baseboard heater ended up tripping 100A main in meter stack (GE brand).

Apartment 2 - All units had one split-wired receptacle in the livingroom and each bedroom, the top half being wired to a wall switch. In some of the apartments, the top (switched) and bottom (unswitched) receptacles wound up on different circuits (MWBC). In apt 2, the maintenance man had replaced a damaged receptacle but did not remove the jumpers. When the switch was turned on, one of the breakers tripped, but only internally - it could not be reset.

Apartment 17 - during a conversion from electric heat/hw to centralized hydronic baseboard, heating contractor turned off breakers for electric baseboard dhw. DHW was still live despite breaker being "off," resulting during removal in light show and tripped main (again, GE)



Now, I will definitely say I am very much opposed to the FPE breakers installed in 24-unit apartment complexes in small Maine towns in 1980. Of course, some (or even most) of these failures could be blamed on age. During my time there, I proved multiple times (I was a curious/experimental youth...) that, most of the time, the breakers DID work...