Hi,
Do most PVC manufacturers recommend using PVC cleaner PRIOR to gluing the conduit?

I have a lot of Underground duct banks that are just being wiped off and glued...

I say the manufacturers installation instructions should be followed.

I am being told if the pipe is not under pressure you can just wipe off the dirt and the glue acts as a solvent.

Thanks

Greg

I have seen this discussed many times. I don't know of any RNC manufacturer that makes primer and that is usually the key to putting it in their instructions. Personally I would use it but I have no documentation that requires it.

As Greg said, much discussed subject. Last discussion at a meeting and CEU class from Carlon mfg rep (real factory guy) was..." did any of you guys ever read the installation instructions??"

No mention of primer is made!

Shocker comment was that in order to do a Carlon PVC install to conform to UL listing that ALL components must be from Carlon including the glue!! That started a lively debate! (Substitute any mfg name for Carlon, the instructions should be the same.)

But, really how many of us read instructions?? Specially for PVC, conduit, NM?? LOL

There are quite a few things that don't make sense with plastic raceways.
You can glue Smurf tube into a RNC connector but you can't glue Carflex (Flex nonmetallic) into one.
That is strange to me because you can glue the white kind (spaflex) into an identical plumbing connector and it is rated the same as sch40. (well over 100PSI)
I think that is simply because they sell the LFNC connectors for about 10x as much and a smurf connector is about the same.

... but I may just be cynical.

Thanks for the interesting comments..

Cantex makes a solvent/cement combo.

I called them and they said they recommend using a chemical cleaner prior to using cement.

When you look at the installation instructions for the conduit there is no mention except for solvent...

Kinda confusing..

I think the NEC should have a section regarding the installation of PVC etc and cleaning...we all know it will not hold if you just wipe it off or if it is wet/muddy...it will pull apart exposed or underground with freezing water inside...

thanks

Greg

The cleaner/primer makes a huge difference in how strong the joint is whether the pipe looks dirty or not.
For most electrical uses it may not actually make that much difference but as AK Greg says, you don't want it pulling apart on you.

Recommending and requiring is two different things. You can if you want but hopfully the project is T&M or there is time alotted in your bid for it

What are you worried about? That the electricity will leak out and make a puddle?

OK, so you want to be fussy. Could you show me a primer that's UL Listed? Did you know you're supposed to use listed cement?

As for the instructions ... UL has made clear, on many occasions, that they do NOT consider any statement along the lines of "use only our stuff" to be part of the listing instructions. This point was well developed in the "classified breaker' debacle.

As far as UL is concerned, you may use ANY product listed for it's purpose.

Look to the opening pages of any UL standard,and you will find many other standards referenced. This should tell you that products are tested while keeping in mind industry standards. For example, to ensure everyone uses the same threads on fittings. Or, that "schedule 80" means the same thing to everyone.

Akmaster:

Your words:

"When you look at the installation instructions for the conduit there is no mention except for solvent..."

Then that is all you need!

I believe that Cantex purchased Carlon a few years ago.

Reno:

The point I was trying to make is that there is no primer mentioned within the mfg instructions.

I added the comment about 'ALL Carlon', and the lively debate that followed. The rep made the 'all Carlon', not me.

IMHO, no one climbs down into a trench to see if a cplg, or sweep is the same brand as the conduit.

John,

That "Use my stuff and my stuff only!" saying goes for almost all the manufactures. Of course they want us to use their stuff and only their stuff. This discussion also came around with breakers and panel boards. Can you put a square D breaker that looks like an ITE in the Murray panel? Doesn't the ITE panel say to use ITE breakers only? This manufactures discussion can go on for ever.

The issue of "Use only my stuff" can be traced back to UL.
When a manufacturer sends their product to be tested for listing UL does their battery of tests using the recommended parts, adhesives, sealing compounds, etc.
UL doesn't test every possible permutation of all of the manufacturers unless you pay extra for it. That's why when I was with Appleton you had to use Apelco sealing compound instead of Chico for the explosionproof fittings. Nobody every said that Chico wouldn't work in an Appleton fitting; it's just that there you would end up with something that UL had never tested.
Some manufacturers go out of their way to pay UL to test their products with other manufacturers (replacement circuit breakers spring to mind), but that's the exception not the rule.

The reason I brought the glue thing up was that it was one of those PITA 'discoveries' by an inspector.

A few cans of 'brand X' PVC glue was seen at a jobsite, and that started one of the proverbial crap storms.

Let's not go into the CB debate, that was beaten into the ground numerous times.

The NEC is really not much help on the glue issue. It just says



An AHJ could approve Liquid Nails if it was acceptable to him.

John,


Here is another fight I see happening around here PVC conduit is used around here everywhere. Shall not be used
"Where subject to physical damage". As per sec.352.12 (C). So some EC's are running PVC around the house on the outside in a flower bed and were being failed. One AHJ says that he wouldn't allow sch 40 PVC used anywhere below 8'. Another is only allowing sch 80 PVC above ground and you have to prove to this AHJ that all fittings, sweeps, and condolets are sch 80.

Harold:
Last time I looked, there were no Sch 80 fittings.

You get them at the plumbing store

Greg,


They are white looking right? I know I am most likely repeating myself, but years ago I was doing an inspection and the lady asked if she could cover a small portion of a trench in order to get to a shed or a garage. I said she could cover a small part but not too much. Well when I looked in the trench the next day, there was all the white plumbing pipe good for 90 PSI. She was not happy when I failed her and me and my big mouth. I said that it was the wrong pipe and an EC would know that. Then she looked at me and said her husband WAS an electrician.

My guess was that he was either a handy man or maybe a maintenance guy who just changed bulbs. Anyway, I have learned to keep my big mouth shut. (I think)

Sch 80 plumbing stuff is dark gray. I agree with John, I have not seen sch 80 RNC connectors but they might be available somewhere. If you need a bend, warm up the truck

Greg,

Tell that to the AHJ in the next town that wants only sch 80 for any PVC above grade and below 8' high. He fails jobs with out the sch 80. (Or so I was told last week in the supply house.)

Harold:

Is the 8' Sch 80 for physical damage?

Does that AHJ want Sch 80 fittings?

John,

As far as I know, the AHJ wants sch 80 for ANY PVC above grade, but below 8' off grade. That includes fittings, and sweeps, and any kind of condolet fittings.

Harold:
FWIW, I just went to the Cantex site, and there are NO Sch 80 fittings, only Sch 40. There are Sch 80 sweeps. I did not look at the condulets, but I never saw a Sch 80 LB.

I really wonder what "physical damage" that would be stopped by sch 80 and not sch 40.
When is the threat of damage "severe"?
This physical damage thing is so subjective that I think it is more opinion than fact.
It is interesting that if you insist on sch 80 fittings the installer is probably going to a plumbing store. If you see male adapters and couplings a little darker than RNC, they probably came from Fergusons, not Graybar.

Greg:

Subjective opinion for sure!

Now, you are starting a 'thing' leading down the path of the 'plumbing' fittings not being UL for electrical use.

That goes with the home made transition fittings (pipe coupling with sealtite fitting, NM connector, etc) debates.

Isn't that what we are supposed to do?

The code never gets fixed if people don't question incongruities.
It is also good for the various AHJs to talk to each other to try to make enforcement more uniform.
ECs have a hard enough time understanding all the ramifications of the code without also having different interpretations in every little town they work in.

John and Greg,

As I have stated before, this AHJ is in a town next to mine. I was told these "stories" by other EC's at the supply house last week. What is an EC suppose to do? Well I would tell the EC challenge this particular AHJ and take him to the Construction Board of Appeal. Then the board would make a decision and the AHJ would have to live by it. The rumor has it that this AHJ is/was an engineer, but never had practical experience of being an EC out in the field.

I met the man once at a class but we didn't talk.