Hey guys I have always said that if you’re in the industry every electrician or technician should own a basic Tone and Probe for tracing wires. I get asked a lot of questions about how use one and would like to share with others some tips that can save them hours of time in the field.

I am willing to give a 33-864 IDEAL Tone and Probe to the first 5 guys who have a tip for using them.

If you’ve ever done much of it you know it is a little bit of an art form to trace wires in buildings. I would love to start a conversation about your favorite Tone and Probe tricks used for tracing wires. I would also like to know what else use them for?

I can start out with my favorite tip and one you won’t find in the instruction manuals. That is if you are down to 2 or 3 wires you feel is the correct one but still not sure. Use your body as a little extra resistance by wetting your fingertip and touch one of the wires. Then crank the volume up on the Probe and hold it closely to your ear. You should hear a very faint tone on the one that actually is the one you’re looking for. All other wires should give you no tone at all.

Give it a try it’s a good one!

Thanks Ron.
Sometimes i will use a length of THW 14 gauge wire to make an "antenna" and clip it to one of the leads of the receiver seems to help find in the wall route of the wire i am trying to trace.

Just as gee whiz info, how deep in the ground will this work?

Ron:
I have a old Progressive Electronics 200EP, and a Tempo 77HP/6A. The only 'trick' I ever did was to parallel two 9V batteries to the toner. It seemed to increase the signal.

It's interesting when I come upon a lot of abandoned data/comm on an inspection, that is tagged rather than removed by some LV guys. It's old & well used. I get it from the car, to 'see' if the tags match. Amazing how quick some data guys say.."we will remove it". Truth be they just randomly 'tagged' without any ring-out!

Little do they know that the speaker on the receiver is shot.

When I use them to trace power wires for a break or open I will trace from both directions. If the break appears in the same spot I pretty sure of where to cut the wall open and look for issues, often a hidden junction box.

Even though you can't normally use the toner and probe on a closed circuit, I still like to use the red led on my HP77/6A for continuity checks and to tell me when I've got the circuit open. Sometimes it's bad wiring or just light bulbs in a ceiling fixture with the wall switch in the on position or maybe a small appliance or table lamp plugged into a receptacle with its switch on. Once the toners red led light illuminates I can continue on probing the rest of the circuit.

I used to have 2 different tester for wires, one for dead wires and one for live wires. The testers was good for 120-277 volt. Sometimes when I had a broken wire, I would put the live on on the live end and the dead one on the other and it helped me to find the path between a house and a barn. Following the live side, the toner stopped by the side of a garden, and so did the dead side. I looked at the garden and saw a fence post. I asked the HO when he put in the fence and he said about 6 months ago, then I asked him when the power went out to the barn and he said, "Uhh 6 months ago." We dug down by the fence post and sure enough he hit the wire with the post.

I have an "older" Amprobe 6-600VAC Circuit Tracing Kit (older = purchased new in 1996).
The Transmitter pulses an Audio Frequency of apx.4.0kHz, with an Octave or Two on each side (1k, 2k, then 8k, 16k), at 250ms intervals (250ms on, then 250ms off, in a continuously repeating cadence).

The Audio Information is "Carried" on the 60Hz of the Branch Circuit under test (typical "Carrier Current" Modulation of the 60Hz Power Circuit).

Kit may be used on Energized or De-energized Circuits, with the Transmitter connected as follows:
a.: Directly for 300VAC and less Energized Circuitry,
b.: Through a 2:1 Step-Down Transformer, for Energized Circuits of >300VAC to 600VAC,
c.: Connected via 9VDC Drycell for De-energized Circuitry (no Loads connected to Circuit).

Trick #1:
(Beginning with the Receiver set for Tracing at the Conductor, first on the lowest sensitivity, moving to the highest sensitivity)

If the Energized Circuit under test contains either a Back-Up Battery Ballast, or Stand-Alone UPS, the Pulsed Audio Frequency will be noticeably distorted.
Half-Steps between Octaves are very noticeable, and the Amplitude of the Audio Fundamental 4.0Khz Tone is noticeably increased - as much as 140% the normal Amplitude.

When the Circuit does not resonate back through the Bus, into a Branch Circuit that has nearly similar XC, the Distorted Tone is strong only on the Circuit being tested.

When another Circuit is resonated, the signal strength is equally high on all effected Circuits.
To determine the tested Circuit, place the Receiver on the "Breakers" Selection, with the sensitivity set high.
Perform test on all Breakers with the Tone.
Turn Receiver 90° Left, then 90° Right.
Correct Circuit will remain high level throughout the turning, whereas the others will drop Amplitude.

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Trick #2:

Where Two or more Branch Circuits are showing similar Levels on the receiver (non-distorted signals), connect a suitable Load to the Circuit (at the Transmitter end), then look for that Load via Clamp-On type Ammeter.

Connecting an intermittent Load - such as a Flashing Lamp, will assist greatly if the Circuit being tested has randomly changing connected Loads.

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"Trick #3"...
(Not necessarily a Circuit Tracing tip, but still worth mentioning)

When using a High Input Z Voltmeter (i.e.: DVM) on Circuits with high levels of Capacitive Coupling effects (long L-N Circuits, or any types of Ungrounded Systems measured L-G), connect a Solenoid-Type Low Input Z Meter; such as a "Wiggy", "Vol-Test", or "Vol-Con", in Parallel with the Hi Z Meter, to Load the Circuit for an accurate reading.

I am sure there are several others, just can't think of any more right now!!!

--Scott (EE)

I have to say that Scott deserves an award for eloquence for the above detailed descriptions!!

Here's one every phone man knows...short the pair to kill the tone.
So you clip the toner leads onto the red and black conductors in a conduit that you think are the travelers for a 3-way circuit....there's some bleed-over tone on other black conductors in the three-gang box. Make sure the power is off and use a jumper to short each black to each red. When the tone goes dead, those are your wires.

One more: if you're toning a circuit, you'll get the loudest tone if the two leads you're squirting tone onto are completely open. A GFCI receptacle will foul things up--a gfi has an injector coil in it to impress a slight voltage on the neutral, so that a ground fault on the neutral, even with no load on the circuit, will trip the gfi. this coil is a moderate impedance short from hot to neutral. A low-voltage transformer for a doorbell or alarm system also bridges the hot & neutral, and will reduce the tone amplitude. Also in commercial situations, look out for emergency lighting fixtures, which have a transformer/battery charging circuit.

Cliff

Hey Doug

Hope you had a great weekend.

That is an interesting tip. You mentioned you clip the wire to the receiver did you mean the transmitter?

Let me know and I'll add it to the list of tips. Take care and thanks for the feedback.

The typical Tone and Probe were never designed for tracing wires in ground. You might get close sometimes but generally not more than a few inches into the ground. That generally takes a lot better circuit tracer that's going to cost you thousand dollars or more. But in buildings a $70 T&B will do the job for a lot less money.

John

That is a good tip about paralleling two 9 V batteries together. I assume it will not damage the toner but will check into it. I wonder how many you could parallel and will have to check that out to.

If you need a tone and probe let me know and I'll be glad to send you one from this stash that I have. Just send me an address.

Thanks for the comments.

Hey thanks for the tip.

Tracing wires is always difficult behind walls and by tracing them from both directions is a great idea to make sure you're in the right spot for popping holes in walls.

If you're need of a tone and probe let me know and I'll be glad to send you one from the stash I have. Just send me an address and I'll get one out to. Send it to my Ron.Kipper@IdealIndustries.com email thanks

That is very interesting so you are just using the red lead to connect to a live circuit and not use the black lead at all?

Let me know

Harold

We sell circuit tracers that can be used on lives circuits but there are a lot more money than a standard tone and probe. But that's a good idea to just a make sure you're in the right spot before digging up the ground or knocking a hole in a wall.

Thanks for the tip.

That's a good tip too.

Hey guys thanks for the tips a put them together and pass them along. I sent a number of you a personal message about sending you a free toner and probe. But if any of you are not in need of one just let me know and I might be able to help you to send me an address to my Ron.Kipper@IdealIndustries.com email address.

Thanks and keep coming up with the tips

Ron,

The tracers I used were Pasar Tracers, which were bought out by Amprobe many years ago. I think I was one of the first EC's out there to have them. I am talking back in the 80's when I was in business. I was tracing a dead circuit from a house to a detached garage.

Oops I did mean the Transmitter

Hotline1 ("John");



Danka!!!

The desire to post replies with elaboarte details is coming back again!

--Scott (EE)

Received my toner on Friday.

THANKS Ron.

Hey Folks

Thanks for all the feedback on toner and probes. There were actually quite a few good suggestions. It has simply become a tester really anyone in the electrical / electronic industries should have.

Be looking for the tips on my YouTube channel!

Hi how do I get a toner to find a shorted mc cable buried in sheetrock, Do I have to remove the cable connector from the panel to seperate the shield?
I have one circuit to lights that works and the black lead is shorted to the white and green ground, Most of the baseboard plugs have been rewired with either romex or mc.

I want to get a better idea on location before I start opening sheetrock or lath and plaster upstairs.

Thanks Chris

The toner I have is a Ideal 62-100 and probe 62-104, I only have one red conductor that I assume is seperate, since that 1/2 still works

The best way to find the bad spot (nail strike or whatever) behind the drywall is time domain reflectometry. If you don't have the machine or an oscilloscope you probably have to rent/borrow one.

I've got a ShortStop unit, but it does the same as toner, my question is do I have to have two open conductors for it to work, or tone, I. e. one hot conductor and do I need to separate my return/white and green bond metal jacket by removing leads and metal clad from panel box. seems to negate tone when I connect black lead to return white wire or can.

Trying to trace the jacket to find where the cable runs, as the inner conductors dont seem to tone past the metal jacket. And all metal boxes are closed behind walls, if buried? No wiring notes exist from original installation. Already tried with power off and tone just the hot and white at panel of suspect circuit.

My Greenlee toner emitted clean thru MC on the occasions that I needed it.

I've never seen the Ideal unit in action.

I would try clipping to the metal jacket to trace MC behind a drywall.

is the greenlee line voltage or cat5/6 type, as the ideal one? I've heard seen a Tic Tracer but cannot remember if it found wire/cable on live or dead circuits, my understanding of the TDR unit, by JTE is that it gives you total short length, so if it reads 25 feet then the short is 12.5 feet away, what I believe I'm looking for is a melted section of wire, in a box or in a wall but cant seem to get toner to ring out of cable? The red conductor still works the lights, i always get a load type continuity ring on my greenlee volcon, and the black non-working conductor rings constant continuity indicating a short....didnt have a regular volt/ohm meter on test day...and this flu isnt helping either, what sort of reading should I be getting on the downstream conductors with the black red white disconnected from panel, but green and jacket still bonded?

MC tape/sheach/metallic wrap should be bonded to the system ground endlessly.

Toners can't pump grounded conductors -- they function as micro-radio emiters -- and the pumped conductor functions as a feeble antenna.

The receiver has a variable pick-up circuit so as to just barely pick up the primary emitter.

This is how it's possible to walk down the conductor.

This also explains why 9VDC batteries don't last hardly any time at all: they're being drained at full flow.

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Even though the sheath suppresses the signal, one can pick up the hot spots every time the conductor enters an (unshielded) junction box. This is often more than enough to dope out the situation.

All tested conductors have to be un-loaded, broken out of circuits.

ONLY the hot should be pumped, the neutral is VERY problematic in old work.

The Greenlee gadget will immediately indicate when its being drained into a short. It can't deal with 'bolted shorts.'

You can spot which leg has been ruined by isolating it from both ends.

It's extremely common for j-men to assume that the cable has been damaged -- when that's the last possibility.

It's far more likely that someone's mis-wired the cable, or that it's tied into a load that is internally faulted... even a flaky receptacle is enough to cross hots to neutrals -- and get to ground.

In old work, conductors are far more likely to fail in and around junction boxes -- it's the heat of utilisation and it's where bad make-up compounds into failure.

In my specific experience, I've only had one experience of drywall screw penetration. Even it only tagged the hot. That was enough to ground it: tin framing.

(When routing MC, stay away from drywall screw pattern zones.)

On this same subject, fire alarm, data, intrusion wiring etc.is more often faulted because of the common practice of attaching to threaded rod, running in open ceilings and being damaged during installation. For years I spent much time going back after installation was supposedly complete and locating grounded cables in high rise buildings. (You cannot pull more conductors through a 4" pipe with a 1/2" rope after the initial install is done).
I found that TDR tracers were very helpful for distance. Also, using an analog meter like the Simpson 260 was also helpful to locate grounded wiring and estimate distance. By opening up the circuit and checking resistance to ground with the 260 I could figure out whic direction the fault lay in. Parking lot lighting could be similarly trouble shot using a megger set on 250 volt dc. Digital multimeters are harder to use for ground faults because they are sensitive to transient voltages.

does the meteal jacket have to be isolated from bonded panel to carry tone, seems the only tone I get from the unclipped (loose) lead. i dont have a test space or lab to test equipment.....