Let's see if this gets any action!

Gripes with your local Inspector/AHJ??

When the fed stimulus train came to town, they looked the other way on everything i was led to believe sacred

Worse than violating everything they supposedly stand for, they sucked up to big money from out of town because the politicans (up to our govenor who spoke on the project)who invited them in turned out to be theives who took the local trades to the tume of almost $2m

They broke my little boy scout heart , and i will always view them differently the rest of my days

~S~

OK, this is what I'm trying to accomplish with a few threads...generate some activity here!!

Thanks for jumping in ~s~!!

Haven't heard from you in a while.

Thanks for allowing me (et all) to vent a bit HotOne

~S~

~s~:
Just trying to generate some activity here. The fact that there are many, many "guests' on site, and low activity is amazing.

Venting is good for the soul (and blood pressure) so jump in anytime.

I would be happy if they just knew the code.

BigB:

Care to embelish on your comment a little bit??

Did I ever tell you about the time I was offered an inspector job?

Applying in a major city with a legacy of (no surprise) of corruption, I took the first test in a room filled with folks in natty suits and city uniforms. I have no way of knowing for sure, but I think I was the only applicant with any trade background. The others were either city employees (who had preference) or eager graduates of various 'certified inspector' career paths.

After all the various hoops were jumped through, I placed 7th. on the list ... and was ultimately offered the job. Mind you, by then the economy had tanked and the job was placed on 'hold.' Two years later the job opened up again, and I was contacted. Having sunk roots elsewhere by then, I declined.

The man the city hired was arrested seven months later, and charged with corruption.

Imagine that. Not that the city didn't try, what with their screening process, background checks, and whatnot.

Power corrupts. There's financial corruption, and there is corruption of the soul - where a man begins to think he's no longer a mere mortal. As some wag once said, the abuse of power is always in the right hands. From the chief executive who expects all the pomp of a Pope, to the lowliest clerk who terrorizes everyone with the paperwork.

Reno:
Thanks for the comments.
Us inspectors up here are required to be State Licensed to apply for any jobs. There are tests (and courses) to take. 3 grades of Electrical Insp Lic, then 'Subcode' which is the Administrative, or 'Chief Inspector' spot. Experience is the field is a requisite.

As to the corruption, yes, NJ has/had issues. Recently a Building Insp was caught with $25 worth of copper in his Twp truck. He probably will loose the job ($85K) and the 17+ years. Don't know if it was wire, pipe or ?? just described as 'copper'.

Payoffs, bribes, etc., yes over the years we had our share.

As I see it, there are at least three different types of corruption. Most folks overlook the third, which is the most insidious.

The three are:
1) Demanding personal gain for your approvals;
2) Being offered something for your approval; and,
3) Administering your own agenda.

For example, there is one city (Gary, In.) whose Police Chief refused to allow the carry of firearms in his city, despite state laws and court rulings to the contrary.

While not as clearly documented, neighboring Chicago has a long reputation for their licensing, and inspections, being solely focused on looking for the IBEW sticker. Their entire city administration has a well-documented history of irregularities in zoning, permits, and inspections.

Likewise, there are countless tales out there of administrative capriciousness. For example, my very first permit application ran into problems because the plans were on the wrong size paper - despite the fact that I had specifically asked the same clerk, beforehand and in the presence of his boss, if the size I planned to use was acceptable. Oops. I'm sure they both had a real good chuckle at my expense.

Such little 'jokes' are the best proof of power corrupting. After all, you can't take your business elsewhere.

Vermont has an on line formal complaint form

One can forward this anonymously, or one can sign their name to it

In my case I pointed out a serious structural flaw to the project manager.

When he did nothing i went to the building owners

When he did nothing i went to my AHJ

When he did nothing i went to my AHJ's boss w/formal complaint in hand AND my name on it

When my AHJ's boss did squat (and i gave him 5-6 months) i went to the state licensing board

The licensing boards vice chair lit a fire under it all, the owners accused me of sabotaging the job, the engineer they hired (and they did so under protest) validated my complaint

IF someone points out a serious life threat to the state, they should not duck & hide from it due to politics

But they did, and it would have hung this boy out to dry if there was an incident, so it was a rock/hardplace deal for me

Believe me, I did't enjoy fighting city hall, and there's no glory in being an outcast due to it all, but it beats being out of biz

~S~

I must have lived a sheltered life. I never actually saw any corruption or even heard about any. (bribes, coercion etc)
There is some process variation between the various AHJs but it seems fairly uniform in that patch so the contractors usually know what to expect.
My wife built over 100 houses and she never really had an inspector problem. Some of the guys used to get in whizzing matches over BS but she just asked what she had to do to get this house moving. Upper management made her the inspector contact and the other people worked for her so things went smooth.

Reno:

#3 on your list is interesting. From my experiences, personal 'agendas' are the end result of a lot of the 'gray' areas within the NEC. Individual interpretation of anything that is not clear in black & white usually end up with many opinions.

Listing the things would take lots of time & space. Length of unprotected service conductors was & sometimes still comes up. A receptacle required on a 30" wall behind a door swing is another.

~s~:
Here in NJ, we have forms for everything, ad even forms for more forms.

Procedures are in place for issues, and various paths to attempt solutions exist, depending on the nature and severity.

My personal procedure is to get all parties involved to sit down, put all the facts on the table, and reach terms to solve the issue without escalation to higher levels. When it is necessary to go 'higher'; make sure all the ducks are in a row, and be prepared.

Based on your issue above, when it got to your third step (your AHJ) it would have received prompt, if not immediate attention of the CO, and the Building Subcode Officials.

Politics can attempt to 'influance' things in the paperwork pushing stages; however life safety remains non-political.

Well i thought it worked that way here too HotOne, but a few things happened that i still question.

For one, the project owners only retained an engineer long enough to get a set of prints accepted and stamped by the state.

So where does one go when there's an engineering level concern after that?


The flaw was obvious right on down to the sweeper on the job, but until an engineer makes a final determination through engineering calculations that this is indeed so everyone played it like it did not exist

And the politics of it all were just depressing, every Congresscritter on up to the Governor stumped there patting themselves in the back because a few fools with their hands in the stimulus cookie jar blew into town.

Having heard these sorts blubbering at camera crews about how much they support the local economy with THIER project they knew so little about they had to ask directions to get to made me want to start drinkin' again....

The 'influence' was thick as molasses, to the point where some higher ups there were insinuating who had who in their back pocket, i.e.- why i should stfu

~S~

John,

Corruption? Here in NJ? You must be joking! I thought the word corruption and NJ were synonymous. Like the time the state took over the whole police Dept. because of corruption.

I usually pull a permit on everything i'm suppose to. Off cuff i'd say we probably do $2K worth annually.

The permits we fill out have a start and end date, although we often fudge the end date a tad due to the chronological challenge many jobs seem to have.

Right now i've probably 3 dozen or more jobs that never got a final. I've e-mailed and called on a number of them, with no response

I've even called the regional office and politely asked if so and so inspector was on vacation a few times

In fact, i've a good number of public buildings occupied without a final, i've basically given up on predicating any contract on one

So i figure i'm not liable for incident(s) occuring for lack of one , if i've recorded my efforts of contact

But the shame of it all is, i'm a taxpayer as well, so i question what i'm supporting here

~S~

~s~:
FWIW, there are a lot of 'open' permits in my Twp, I'm sorry to say.
We attempt to keep it under control, but, it's a busy Twp with around 5000 permitted jobs a year. An increase in the clerical staff, and another inspector would be a good thing. Attempting to 'try' for a PT Electrical guy as we speak.

Here, we (Code Enforcement) are not supported by tax dollars, but by permit fees, although that is not a widely known fact.

IMHO, you made/make a good move to document the facts about efforts to contact. A few guys like you would help me out!

I sense a little austerity creeping in here HotOne, and i really don't want to take it out on those who are not responsible

I've told my ahj that i'm slow this time of year, he can have any day he'd like to go from job to job


~S~

~s~:
My point was that IMHO, you sound like someone who cares to go 'by the book'. As AHJ, I can only dream, or wish that a quiet time was upon me.

Now, before someone thinks I'm complaining, or boasting on the amount of work...that's is not the case at all. I consider myself, and my one FT inspector fortunate that we work for a busy Twp., and have survived the downturn in the recent years.

I can pen a few interesting debates that i've had with some of the other towns at seminars, but I don't want to rant now.

Stay safe & fight the good fight

[HotLine1]~s~:


Actually my whole problem is i'm an overgrown boy scout HotOne, i get my bubble popped all too easily over altruisms i sense getting thrown under the bus

That said, as much as i b*tch, i still fall back on the fact we have a symbiant relationship, as dysfunctional as it may seem at times, we're all we've got.





and you / yours my friend

~S~

John, you're witnessing the natural progression as officialdom morphs public service commitments into 'cash cows' for their overall budgets.

This takes public economics back to the Stamp Act -- and the economic rationale for the American Revolution.

In sum: the Colonies were being picked apart by nickel and dime fees for every manner of official duties. What started out as trivial kept expanding until the status quo blew up.

In a round about way, we're headed down the same path. The petty charges ( from Sacramento ) have simply exploded over the last twenty-years.

They, like the sumptuary taxation of electric power/ rationing of energy to the proles, are hidden taxes that need no embarrassing, visible, votes.

It's a death by a thousand cuts.

I still have 3 open since the Clinton administration.

I stopped getting inspection requests about 11 years ago but nobody ever officially terminated my contract. Do you think they are going to call someday?

Tesla:
Yes, I know the 'cash cow' scenario, and the famous 'General Fund'.

That said, the fee schedule in the Twp I work in has been stable (same) since 2008. Prior to '08, it was revised in 2000. Fees are set by Twp ordinance.

Although we (NJ) are blessed with the Uniform Construction Code (UCC), there is no 'ststewide' fee schedule. There are 'State Fees' which are in effect in locales that the State DCA provides services, AND by any 'third party' inspection services co. that provides inspections to locales under contract.

Keep in mind there are 'other fees' above the B/E/P/F; DCA surcharges, CO Fee, etc., etc. The DCA surcharge goes to the State, and is a percentage based on the estimated costs for the proposed work. These other fees are Twp ordinance.

John,

You talk about getting finals for permits. The days after Sandy hit our towns, many, many people started doing work on their house with out permits at all. They tore out the dry wall, insulation, put drywall back up, no inspections, permits or replacing of wire. The only way we get to hear about it is when someone who did take out the permits complain about all of those who didn't.

Irene taught us a little about how bureaucracy works in a disaster. The poco's shut down entire streets, which we during the aftermath were (as licensed electricians)sent out to 'sign off' via a form the poco provided.

I guess you could say we were deputized for a while as de facto inspectors.

We (the EC contingent) stipulated a lot of sign offs were we installed a few GFCI's under panels that did not get flooded & disco'd everything else

But what didn't work so well was the Fire Marshal end of it all. Public buildings needed both an electrical sign off, as well as the structural sign off of a FM.

But being they are as scarce as nats in a wind storm normally, it created a bad situation where a number of inn owners (VT is lousy with inns btw) could not offer shelter to the public.

A few towns had thier citizens holed up in town halls, libraries, town garages, or whatever municipal shelter the Vt Nat Guard could get to (God bless every last one of 'em), while the inns could have taken up the slack here

It's been discussed that the local Fire Chiefs be granted some leverage as FM deputies in lieu of their arrival

~S~

Sparky,

I mentioned Sandy, I also had to deal with even more water damage with Irene. We had several houses in one of my towns where the water knocked down portions of the basement foundations.

They were both bad news Harold

iirc, Irene was 'tropical storm' category when it blew through Vermont

we were dumbfounded, give us 4' of snow and we're good, but all that water and we just were not prepared...

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-T8gOWNNw8Y[/youtube]

First, I am very aware of the damages Irene caused to those 'up north' as Sparky shared a few pics with me.

The Sandy situation I have witnessed is twofold. The Twp I work in had been hit basically in one large industrial/office park, and one apt complex. Water aws 6' deep in some areas and warehouses. Some repairs were done in the week after the storm, with no permits/inspections as the Twp was 'closed' due to lack of power.

Where I live, the resi damages were heavy. Work without permits was being done, some ligit, some not.

Permit fees were waived in the Twp I work in for all storm/flood damage related work. It amounted to at least $75K in fees if not more.

Actually one gripe comes to mind. I can't stand it when the
inspector walks in and signs the work off without checking every facet of the installation. I Mean jeeze, what if I missed something? Gotta love those thorough inspectors huh!
Actually the biggest gripe is when an inspector interprets a code section completely different from every other inspector I've had. I had one inspector that was going to fail a meter inspection because my driven ground rod was flush with the ground. He said it HAD to be 6" above ground so it was accessible. I ended up wrenching it out with channel locks so he would sign it off.

Wewire2:
I agree with you on the different interpretations. I hear from some ECs that 'the guy in xx town don't like that'.

It's not as prevelant lately, but I still get calls occasionally.

The ground rod thing is a new one to me.

John: I figured out a long time ago that it's usually wise to go with the flow and do whatever the inspector asks for.
I think I mentioned this a while ago but I had an inspector
refuse to allow me to install a multi meter bussed gutter against a side wall because it had an expansion plate on the end and he said I couldn't block access where the removable plate was. Another inspector required a separate ground rod for each meter hanging under a 6 meter gutter. He said the GEC was not considered accessible since it was in a utility sealed area.
I showed him how sharp my dikes were and how soft the metal is on the utility lock-out tags but he still wouldn't budge.
It would only be fair to note that by far, most inspectors I've dealt with have been great and very few have shown poor judgment in making their calls.

Interesting 'red tags'!!

I agree on 'going with the flow' as you put it, but only to a point! Decisions to hold or fold have to be thought out.

Can you hold up the job to fight the good fight?
Can you financially afford to fight the good fight?
Is the AHJ totally, positively incorrect?
Can you talk to the inspectors 'boss'?

I tell ECs this scenario; if he wants a blue GFI device, and that cost you $10, how much will holding up the job or final cost??

To discuss an issue, request a NEC Article number from him/her. It helps if you have a current NEC close by.

So True! If the bad call is going to cost a lot of money then it's time to but on the battle gear. I carry a 2011
handbook in the truck and keep another at the office. My 2008 handbook looks like it went through a tornado.

" Many people started doing work on their house with out permits at all."

Now, there's something that pisses me off. Not the content of the statement, but the attitude behind it. Yes, Massa, we's but gentle serf-folk out here!

I've dealt with floods, and any delay is harmful. Very harmful. It takes a few hours for the water to 'wick' to cause maximum damage. It takes but 36 hours - a single day - for mold to bloom and everything to stink - maybe forever.

So, if I have a flood, I'm getting the water out NOW. I'm removing the carpet, baseboard, and lowest drywall NOW. I'm not about to wait for City Hall to open next Monday to wait in line pull a permit.

Same here

"Come and get me copper"

The reality is, nobody will care.

At first glance I interpreted that as if you meant that by removing the drywall it would be exposing the copper wire to theft. Realistically, that quote could easily support both meanings.

Reno:
Back to what Harold said, and you commented on for a minute.

Yes, remediation is important in the aftermath of a flood, as I know having that issue last October.

No, I do not have any issue at all, nor do the majority of inspectors in 'doing what you have to' to preserve your property. (Period) No fines, no jumping up & down. All I ask is that the required paperwork be filed within a reasonable time.

Without going into deep specifics here, the Twp I work in was shutdown for a full week after Sandy. (No Power/Phone)
I was in contact with a few major property owners, ECs, and POCO guys for that full week, along with dealing with my personal issues & securing my property.

To leave this for now, the majority of the municipalities within the State waived all fees related to Sandy work.

Reno:

A little more on flood remediation, aka the things an electrical guy found out after 10/29/2012.

More than 25% of sheetrock removed & replaced, a Building Permit will be required. I commented '25% of each room, or 25% of the whole affected structure?' The answer was '25%'!

Now, who is going to measure & do the math? Basically, it was the homeowner/contractor call.

Was there any violations written? No! Zero!

Collectively, there are other issues to write violations & fines for. Illegal basement apts, illegal ;finished' basements, illegal occupancy, etc. Another story for another time.

In unincorporated Lee County I have never heard if a violation or fine for a renovation or finishing a room without permit. Usually the tax assessor will find it and amend your tax bill but you never hear from the building department unless a neighbor rats you out to code enforcement (the zoning police).
I have done quite a bit around here without permits, the tax man finds it within 12-18 months and that is it. I am careful not to do things that would require a destructive inspection and the "fine" is just a double permit fee.

Greg:
Yes, there are differences between Fla. & NJ

How do we (Code Enforcement) aka Bldg Dept. find the 'issues'??
During re-sale CCO inspections.
Neighbors dropping a dime.
Contractor disputes. (Yes, some get themselves in deep)
Drive-bys. "Gee, what is that 100' crane doing??"
"Where did that pylon sign come from"
"That gas station was not like that last Friday"
"New neon is a retail that had a final last Friday"
"Brown paper covering windows"
Three doorbells & mailboxes in a single/two family neighborhood!

Believe me, it's not Sherlock Holmes work!!

BTW, 'destructive inspections' are a rarity. The illegal apartments being an exception. They get violations/fines, require permits for whatever demo.

There are other jurisdictions here that are more pro active in finding violations (I understand) but my county seems pretty easy going on small projects.
It is mostly a complaint driven process.
The tax man is very vigilant tho.

What we call code enforcement is really run through the zoning department not the building department and they spend as much time on junk cars parked in the yard and unmowed lawns as they do on unpermitted activity.
They will also be the ones who take the "multifamily in a SFD" complaint. (and that is almost always complaint driven)

During the cutbacks some municipalities laid those people off and put building inspectors in those jobs, simply to preserve licensed staff but I understand that may be over.
It was not a popular decision for senior multi license inspectors who were suddenly standing in an unkempt lawn with a yard stick measuring weeds but being laid off was worse.

Amen to measuring weeds vs. a pink slip.

I don't get it....why would an inspector measure a weed?

what kind of 'weed'....?

~S~

Weeds are of issue because in the dry season they are fire transmission hazards.

Out my way they have to be cut down to stuble -- even if they are entirely outside ones own propertly lines. ( A ten foot swath is mandated -- this extends to as far as going across the road to cut those weeds down, too.

Big fines are involved.

Elsewhere, communities have established covenants -- of which you must sign to gain ownership and residency. Such terms of use are far reaching indeed. You are not permitted to paint your home just any color, your front yard cannot be planted with vegetable beds, it can be left weedy...

On and on...

In my area, such infractions are monitored by agravated housewives -- who then write nasty grams to the sheriff or homeowners associations. Given enough time and ink such actions can build into court cases and newspaper articles.

The wild west has been replaced by the manicured west.

Well thanks Tesla, guess i've been out in the puckerbrush a tad too long , i had no idea, but i guess the brushfire hazard makes sense, considering your history out west

worse that's happened to me is the local fire chief (who i know) scolding me with a 'don't make me come out there' line over my brush clearing/burning....


~S~

OK, now that the weed is settled. Over/down here the property maintenance issues are handled by either Zoning or the Health Dept.

There may be some confusion as to Building Dept, Code Enforcement, or Construction Office as some municipalities around here refer to themselves as any of the above. A 'small' town may have one guy who wears a lot of hats.

Interesting to see different permit requirements!
Austria has 9 different construction codes (lovely for a country with just 8 million inhabitants) but in the areas I know you don't need permits for any work that does not alter the exterior appearance of the building. Minor exterior work such as adding or replacing windows, replacing an existing roof with same (i.e. without altering the shape of the framing, the roofing material can change) etc. are covered by a simplified process with is called a construction notification rather than a permit - you just tell the council what you're going to do in an informal letter and if they don't object within 6 weeks you can start.

In theory, anything but (possibly) painting is supposed to be done by professionals who are responsible for the compliance of their own work. I've never heard about issues with homeowner work though, as long as it's safe. If DIY wiring burns down the house or electrocutes something (which happens considerably less often than you'd expect seeing some of that stuff) it DOES become an issue of course.

On a side note, even painting can be dangerous if someone is stupid... 1 or 2 years ago two families barely survived a weekend of painting, because one guy had the insanely bright idea to move the charcoal grill into the living room overnight to make the paint dry faster!

The weed thing here is pretty much cosmetic. The law says if your lawn is more than "X" inches tall over a certain percentage of the area you are in violation. That same class of violation includes junk cars in the yard and other home maintenance issues. The "code enforcement" guys who do this also find most of the unpermitted activity.

These are almost all complaint driven.

Tex:

" and if they don't object within 6 weeks you can start."

We have people jumping up & down when we tell them, by State regs we have '20 business days'!! Heck, if we said what you say, there may be another revolution.

Reno,

I'm sorry if you took my post about not getting permits wrong. I don't care if they rip out the wallboard, or wires, etc. Technically you don't need a permit for that. Technically you do need a permit to put all that stuff back in the wall. Also, I meant that some people in town never even made an attempt to get a permit. If I went down a neighbor hood that had 6-8 feet of water in it, and there are 10 houses on the block, and only 2 permits for that street, doesn't that seem a bit odd, that the other 8 houses, didn't do any work at all?

Speaking of wildfires ...

A few years back, Lake Tahoe has a fire that simply erased a street or two from the map. Every home completely consumed, save one - which sat untouched, amidst a sea of charcoal.

That one house .... it's owner was currently facing charges for illegally removing the accumulated pine needles and brush from the government-encouraged 30-ft 'clear space' around his home.

That is, the Forest Service and Fire Marshal 'encouraged' homeowners to maintain a defensible space around their homes. The Tahoe Regional Planning Authority, OTOH, forbade any activity that altered the natural state of the land. Despite quick denials, it was proven that TRPA had, indeed, started CRIMINAL proceedings against this homeowner.

TRPA went into 'damage control mode,' where they asserted that their policies were misunderstood, all the man needed do was apply for a permit, etc., - despite TRPA's own website, which told a different tale indeed. The TRPA's own site made clear that you were to NEVER disturb the ground cover, even to the extent of collecting pine needles, for fear of rainwater runoff carrying debris into the lake - and that there was no 'permit' available, save those pursuant to a full-blown environmental assay, required for new construction.

Amazingly enough, charges against the sole surviving homeowner were quietly dropped. This time - there's no reason they won't cite him again in a few years, when the trees are replanted.

Small wonder homeowners look upon the "authorities" as the enemy.

I don't think they will go after that homeowner or any other in the future.

Just for the heck of it, I looked at the Tahoe Regional Planning Authority website and found instructions on how to create a defensible fire control space around your property including removing pine needles.

I guess that if enough pressure is put on government regulatory agencies they can change to work with the people that pay their wages.

Harold said:

"If I went down a neighbor hood that had 6-8 feet of water in it, and there are 10 houses on the block, and only 2 permits for that street, doesn't that seem a bit odd, that the other 8 houses, didn't do any work at all?"

The things I discover:

100' crane boom, RTU on hook, HVAC guys ask "how did you notice us"??

Retail windows covered in paper or whitewash, dumpster full of debris.??

Neighbor complaints. Some ligit, some crank calls.

PU truck overloaded with sheetrock in front driveway of house.??

Van parked where there is no parking, back doors open, electrical tools/materials laying on grass??

Call for inspection of an alarm system, or replaced HVAC, and be finishing a basement!! Stupid award.

They are certainly more easy going here. I had a structural inspector say "I don't want to know what you are doing over there" when he was looking at my addition.
It was innocent (just a pile of materials I had collected from my wife's dumpsters) but I liked the attitude

We're dancing around some much larger issues, issues that go to the nature of the society we want.

Simply put: Do you want to live in a world that celebrates the individual, protects his freedom, rewards initiative, and presumes innocence?

Or,

Do you want to live in a world where 'community' or the 'common good' is valued above all else, where everyone else has a veto in your decisions, where things are allowed only after proven to be proper, and the assumption is that one must get permission first?

Code Nazis love to say it's "all about safety," yet their actions send a different message. My own town now has officials who want the city to become 'proactive' and use the trash collector to seek out revenue sources for code enforcement.

For a town whose permit and inspection activities are extremely minimal, that's quite a sea change.

Others will say 'follow the money,' but even that fails to explain many behaviors. In many cases, it's all about control, as has been well proven in Chicago. Supporters get permits, others get delayed for decades, and even long-established businesses are closed down the moment the political tide shifts. (Research "Lakeshore Gun Club" for a classic example).

The above mentioned gun club case is illustrative, as it was an instance where new "environmental protections" were instituted for the express purpose of eliminating a business whose reason for existence -firearm ownership- was deemed improper by some. Never mind the decades-long existence of the business, or their 100-year lease; a pretense was created.

I applaud your perspective here Reno, as most of us like to focus on minutiae which is comfortable vs. being objective enough to grasp a broader overview.

For example, why demand the expensive photosensitive talking battery BU combo smoke/co units that talk (i hate that) @ $75 a whack, when we could be proliferate all the slums with the $10 120v non bat ionization units?

In the broader scope, isn't a little protection for everyone better that a lot for the chosen few?

Theres two camps that follow suit, i'm sure nobody's a starnger to them , but they bear mention at this turn of the thread

There's the libertopians, who pine away for their personal freedom(s) , much to the expense of others around them, with the entire doctrine often degrading into 'meanest dog wins'

Then there's the Keynesians, who believe the government is responsible for some manner of market oversight

This is where the devil in in the details, as we well know
bureaucracy can be a double edged sword, and we are but mere fleas on it's gleaming edge....~S~

Reno:
I don't consider myself, or Harold "Code Nazis". I can't speak for Harold, so the comments herein are mine.

Yes, innocent, until proven guilty. Yes, we live in the USA, have our freedoms, and laws to abide by.

My actions are to enforce the Construction codes as adopted within NJ, and that is what I have State licences for.

How do I do my job? Swoop in like a storm trooper? No, I talk to people, remain calm, & explain the situation. Honest mistake?? No problem, just get to the office & fill out the permit forms. Do I hear 'fairy tales'? Yes. Do some people think that I was 'born yesterday', Yes. Do some lie to my face? Sure. BTW, bless the guy who decided to date stamp romex.

Could a Notice of Violation & Penalty be written? By the book, yes; but there is discresion. Fool me once, shame on me. Do it again, or ignore the issue & pay the price.

Embelishment on one of my comments to bring this thread back to life. This was about 4-5 years ago, but memorable:

The van parked was on a street in an industrial park, each bldg has large parking lots, & no one parks on the streets. I passed it once, returned 1/2 hr later going the other way, & it was still there. I parked, walked thru the open man door, showed my ID & asked where are the electricians. "On break'; I ask what are they doing, guy says 'been here over two weeks' & takes me to a new 400 amp, MCC & 12 new machines. I walk out to the lunch tables, & there they are, one who was a student of mine at Vo-Tech. I told them to call the boss! And, I gave them a free lesson...If they were parked in the lot, no one would have ever noticed!!!

That said....$500, reduced to $250 for working without a permit! First known issue got a break.

Two weeks later, same EC, same men...working at a large hi-end car dealership, again with no permits! Did he learn? Don't seem so, but this one cost him $2000.

"Code Nazis" can, I realize, describe two different mindsets. While both are often found in the same person, it's also quite possible for the ideas to live apart.

The first is the guy who thinks everything needs a rule. It's not enough to specify drywall - it has to be a certain type, with certain marking, hung in a certain way with specific fasteners with sundry approvals.

Far fetched? Hardly. A specific case arose when Mike Holmes (of TV fame) went to build in California. He went to assemble the code-specified lumber with the usual power nail guns, only to have the nails bounce off of the 'engineered' lumber. It was possible to drive screws - but the assembly had never been 'rated' with screws, so screws were out. No matter that 'everyone knows' that screws are far better fasteners than any nail of similar size.

The other type of 'code Nazi' is the troll who appears when the balance of power shifts, to where you can't operate without their blessing. Don't let appearances fool you; these sadists often present the most polished, professional face, and never set a foot wrong. They're just being 'thorough' or 'conscientious.' Yea, right. Some have personal agendas, favoring one over another. Others have nothing but contempt for their "customers." You see this expressed in the remote, inadequate parking, the long waits, the inability to contact, the false "professional" names, and the armed guards and security barriers to keep you away.

One can readily find an example of this second sort of troll at any government office administering anything resembling a 'benefit.'

Now, I want every government employee reading this to pause, and look at their place of work. Who uses the "good" parking spaces? Are the ones for the public the most expensive metered spaces in the downtown district - and the cashier forbidden to make change? Do your 'open' hours more closely resemble a bank- or a supermarket? Are more folks brought to serve the counter when there's a line? Will my application get trashed if I use the wrong color ink?

It's those 'little things' that identify who the institution REALLY serves.

Has anyone compared losses from areas that have strict inspection requirements, to areas that have no inspections or very limited ones? I would be real curious to see the outcome of any study.

Homestead Florida and Hurricane Andrew.

The houses that pretty much exploded were far less than code. There were not enough nails in the roof sheathing, missing hurricane clips etc. That area had very sloppy enforcement with a lot of drive by inspections and such. The result was the whole government structure was changed. Unincorporated Dade county was merged with the city of Miami. Inspectors, state wide were licensed and certified. They ended the practice of the inspector just being the unemployed nephew of the mayor. Eventually they established a state wide building code with no local exceptions.
Subsequent hurricanes did minimal damage to houses built after the Andrew reforms were established and the codes were strengthened even though Florida had one of the most stringent codes before that.

I was a code nazi, back when i was learning with a few of the 80's code cycles. In fact i could recite many codes verbatim. My bro (who i started out apprenticed to) said i sounded like Joe Friday of Dragnet fame, the rest of the world looked at me like i was speaking greek.

I'd say it all nice to know in a pro forum such as this or similar setting, but way down the list on the scale of 'how to make friends & influence people' social etiquette....

These days, as a cynical old curmudgeon electrical contractor i find folks simply want to know if it's safe

But that's only a yes or no answer for the simple minded, if we're really honest,'safe' is a relative term.

So i'm often confronted by situations here, in Vermont where there is no OC or any sort of inspection for single family. In fact there are entire families living in what many would probably think twice about for a dog house

Conversely, the entire NFPA library isn't some safety utopia if it doesn't have a prayer being enforced.
I'd wager compliance becomes inversely proportonal to it's growth , if such a study existed....

Personally, i find it rather uncomfortable having to address some safety benchmark for people's existence.

This validates the 'state', and the sovereign immunity it grants itself , essentially removing us from the malestrom of moral conundrum

~S~

Seems like we are on different layers of discussion.

To comment on Reno regarding offices, my Twp has a large lot, marked 'visitor' spaces, required ADA spaces, and it's free. One small boro I work in has a small lot, and yes, parking is tight to say the least, but, no parking fee. We also attempt to 'put all hands' at the counter when the staff has a line. Keep in mind, field inspectors are really not great clerical people, and there was limited cross training.

Being able to 'contact' the office staff may be tight sometimes, but there is voice mail. That said, most of the 'regulars' have my cell #; my office line has voice mail, we all have email, and also can be reached thru the OEM, and police dispatch for emergencies.

That said, this is in one town that I work for.

Please keep in mind that for 25+years I was an EC, and was on the 'customer side' of the counter. Yes, there were many town halls that I dreaded to have to go into.

later....

Sorry, I am late as usual. We have been very busy around here. As John said, I am not a code Nazi either. Quite frankly, if a homeowner doesn't get an inspection, do I really care? That being said, I am in an office where I am suppose to care and enforce the laws of my state. I too would usually catch an EC on the side and say, "You know you need a permit for that don't you?" "Get to the office and get one." Also if say an EC just goes and adds 2-3 recess lights in a closed wall/ceiling and he has to snake walls in order to do it, do you think I want to go out and inspect that? What am I going to do, walk in flip the light switch and see if the lights work? The first thing a HO will yell about is the price of a permit and what we have to look at.

Now during emergencies like Sandy, all the permits were free. No one could complain about the price. However they didn't want to wait for inspections. Even though I came to town on days and weekends that I wasn't suppose to be, just to keep things moving.

For the past 61/2 years I have been doing multistorey apartment buildings in several ndifferent states. I have seen insectors who were very good to very incompentent. The good ones were usually easy to talk to and fair on the code enforcement. if they had a local code issue they were enforcing strongly they told us about it either during our talks with them before the actual constuction or during our first rough in inspection.
The pain in the a** always told about what they wanted thier way after the inspection sometimes on a letter sent to the GC 2-5 days after inspection. one place I found out that to pass an inspection cost $50.00 every time the inspector showed up.
Had one site the inspector came out to the job site during rough grading looked at the plans for about 10 sec and told me $900.00 for the permit and he would come by tommarrow to take care of it so I would not have to fight the traffic downtown. Next day 900 cash was given rough in and final tags- never saw him again

The insinuations of 'pay to play' issues IMHO is what I consider situations that cast bad light on the majority of inspectors. Be they within the building areas, engineering, health, code, etc.

State wide codes solve the problem of most 'local' issues, that is within the construction codes. State licenses also helps keep the 'rules' on a level field. Keep in mind that the 'rules' are subject to interpertation.

I don't doubt what you said, but 900 cash would put someone in the 'gray bar' hotel here.

I had a friend of mine who was an inspector in PA and he used to work for an independent company. You would have to hire his company and pay for his services every time he went out. So it would give the impression that the more times he failed you, the more money his company would make.
Like John said,here in NJ it is a state wide code and you pay once up front. ( Unless you change your permit by adding more things, motors, HVAC's, services, etc)from the original permit. So if I fail you once or 100 times, it doesn't cost you anything more. It might however tick off the inspector if you fail 100 times.

BTW, I have a whole house generator jab that is on it's seventh (7th) inspection.

Hopefully, the EC (??) continues to attempt to correct the violations, the 'list' is getting shorter!!

John,

I get that a lot when a HO is doing their own in ground pool. I always try to talk them out of doing the work themselves. I tell them how involved it is, but every now and then "Joe Homeowner" wants to do it himself. I had one I/G Pool that took I think 5-7 inspections before it was code complaint.

That's gotta hit 'em in the wallet & make 'em think about it though.....~S~

I built my own pool with no violations, you just need to do your homework and hire good subs.
That is where most homeowners get in trouble. They don't know anyone.

I built my own house

did a LOT of asking around.....~S~

I general contracting on my own house, it was easy when you worked with the same contractors that I did electrical work for. They all were nice enough to watch out for me and any mistakes because when we were done building my house, I was wiring up their jobs.

Although one or two of them did zing me a little.