When was it practice to upgrade service, and protect old 120volt subpanel feeders with 20amp 1 pole, and leave 20-25 amp fuses in the screw shells, some with 14ga. wire. And that was Ok? I've seen dozens of places in the SF bay area? shouldn't I put in 15 type s fuses?

Yes. Using anything but 15a fuses on a general purpose 14ga circuit is wrong.

In Southeastern New England it is very coommon to see a stack of pennies in the fuseholders of a "main range and floor" 60 amp service for a 3 to 6 apartment .

what are your thoughts on the mini-fuse breakers, they are ul listed?

I like the Edison-base breakers, and, yes, they are UL listed for protecting branch circuits.

They are manufactirered by Miniature Breaker, and distributed by Bussmann. Ironically, Bussmann makes them a bit hard to find in their catalog, and even the local Bussmann rep was not aware of their existance. Look for them at your local home center.

One detail to watch: technically, we are not allowed to protect a 240 circuit with two single-pole breakers, so the use of these breakers would not be allowed in a disconnect.

OK, I have to ask. If you are doing a service upgrade, why would you keep the fuses/fuseblock?

Would not a correctly sized cb in the 'new' panel?

Or, are you talking about maintaining the 'feeder' to the fuse block??

John the apt, 2nd floor unit has a four screw shell wooden fuse box, #12 knob and tube feeder, and #14 branch circuits, (only two actual circ.s since they used to fuse both hot and return. It was probably originally protected by a two screwshell knife switch back inthe day, with 30amp fuses.....someone took out the steam heat put in new service and replaced knife switches with 8-16 bryant panels, and added two 20 amp 240 feeders for baseboard heating units. and put old in apt. fuse cabinet on 1 20 amp single pole, and left 20 or 25amp fuses in old panel....I'm doing receptacle repair and safety check as the units become available. I've heard customers say that the electrician at the time said they never had to worry about the fuses in the apt box? and this on many occassions at different bldgs. in the SF/ Oakland area.....So I wasa wondering if there ever was a practice of putting entire apt on 1 20amp single pole, now these units probably only had five lights and five plugs, one per room.

OK, now I see the picture. Common practice here, as I was taught by the 'old timers' and to be code compliant:

Splice the neutrals 'thru' to eliminate the screwshell.
Install 'S' fuses and adaptors, sized to the AWG of the branch circuits.

That said, we used to replace the old fuse boxes with either two or four circuit panels, and eliminated the fuses altogether.

Along the same lines, on HVAC replacement jobs, occasionally I see 60 amp fuses in the disco, and the proper CB in the panel to match the MOCP of the new compressor. (Disconnect & feeder not changed)

I was under the impression one couldnt replace the fuses with panels without upping to the new 60amp minimum? or is this a "emergency" replacement work. the owners want to not effect the other units at all costs. Can I as a licensed contractor deem the old feeders insufficient for a 600 sf. apt.? I did add 1 circuit from the basement up the outside with surface wiremold for grounding for surge protector plug strips, but the remaining 8 plugs are non-grounding or gfci ungrounded in kitchen. Thge ownwers of course called me to check it after they repaired all the plaster cracks and repainted.......thanks again. Crs

Here (NJ) we have a 'Rehab' section within the statewide Unifior Construction Code. That allows certain things that do not affect any life safety, to be replaced without conforming to 'current code requirements'.

Keep in mind that this is a New Jersey Code(Law), and may not apply in your area.

That said, replacement of plug fuses that can be 'overfused' with circuit breakers, properly sized is an improvement in safety IMHO.

Also, something that was inspected for code compliance when it was installed (original) is still OK, as long as it is not altered or presenting a dangerous condition.

Again, out of curiousity, where did you arrive with the "60 amp minimum"? From load calculations, or is that a local requirement for apartments?

John I am under the impression from the bldg dept that any panel replacement, would require upgrade to current minimum code, which I thought was 60 amps/ 240, I know that when I've done service replacements all I had to do is protect feeders at proper rating for wire size. Most of the apts I rehab. which is to say just repair or replace damaged wiring and broken recept.s calc out at about 30-40a 120, then from my code classes at trade school I thought the minimum was 60amps if you were installing new feeders and panel?

Without cracking the book, I know that a single family dwelling requires a minimum of 100 amps, 120/240 three wire.

Apartments (multi-family) dwelling units (NOT Townhouses) have no 'Minimum' that I am aware of. It's done on calculated loads for the unit.

You should check with your local AHJ to see if there are any requirements; or perhaps one of the CA members can provide that info.

Remember I'm in New Jersey!

Minimum Services out my way are 200Amp 240/120 for a detached home...

Condos are 125A 240/120, IIRC. ( I've never been on the end of that wire. )

But then we're required to embed a Ufer with #4 in the slab, too.

One of the reasons that California real estate is more expensive is that our earthquake experiences have driven the California Code to very high levels.

That's the point.
In this case it seems like the branch circuits were not fused to AWG but rather 20A, relying only on the new breaker protecting the existing feeder! And that's most clearly unsafe.

Yeah thats why I was wondering if there was any logic to it, I guess if there not touching the apt panels or wiring. then its "ok",. but on more than three occasions I've heard them say "they didnt have to worry about the fuses in the closet".

There may be another reason to think about this. IF it happens to be a 'clothes' closet....

"but on more than three occasions I've heard them say "they didnt have to worry about the fuses in the closet"."

Hmmm...makes ya stop & think. If it was not 'touched', and was approved when originally installed, that's one story. But, IF it was 'touched' (ie: splice thru the neutrals) it could become a liability issue down the road.

The minimum in sacto now is 200, is that due to AC loads? what about passive cooling or do they not believe it works?

From a purely electrical (not code) point of view this is pretty simple. A 20A breaker in the new main won't protect any existing #14 final circuits in the old panel. So the old panel needs to have 15A fuses for any #14 final circuits. Then the 20A breaker is OK, if the feeder can take it it could even be 25 or 30A.

Completely different topic: are the electricians required to correct existing overfused circuits if they only hook up the feeder to a different source? Around here the answer would be yes, the electrician doing any work at the place is responsible for violations he should have noticed, providing it has already been a violation when the offending equipment was installed.

Tex:
That's a can of worms with 'existing' violations. Basically, anything obvious should be corrected.

Inspectors are supposed to 'only' inspect what is on the electrical permit. However, we can advise the homeowner of what we 'see'. Any life safety violations are reported to the Fire Prevention Inspectors, as they can write $$ violations for compliance.

yeah its one of those judgement calls, and I'm trying to see what others do in their judgement. If its practical i like to see if existing load can fit on a 15amp afci breaker and make closet fuse box into splice box, and let it blow if they add too many extension cords, with recomendation that they need to add plugs upto code with new sub installed, in location that has clearances etc. My own experience contracting has been repair work, the occasional service swap out and upgrade, fishing new bath and kitchen circuits where desired, and other experience working for others in ac/dc solar installs, and large single family homes where the PM or office did all the judgement calls. This one client, that's been good has a tendancy to get the place ready to rent before asking if electrical is OK, I guess they want tokeep their painter happily employed......

John,

There was a very notorious AHJ who worked in this area that would give everyone a hard time. He would come onto a job and complain about everything. He tried to fail me many times for jobs or violations that I didn't even touch. (Sometimes I didn't even see them) He would think nothing of walking through a house even if we just did a basement reno job. He also would talk down to the homeowner and sometimes he made the lady of the house cry. He has been reported to the DCA many. many times. The town finally got rid of him and went inter local with another town.

Harold:

Sometimes people deserve to loose their job! I guess after a few warnings...it's time to let them go.

I think that things have improved greatly since the UCC!!