So I head down to Millersville Boro and ask for a permit ap for a service change 200a 120/240v resi. I begin to fill in all the spaces and then it asks about workers comp.(which as a s corp with no employee's I'm not required to have) Since I don't have workmans comp. I must have my signature notarized, that says I don't have workmans comp. So I'm having a problem with this little requirement, because I must now find a notary, go to said notary pay for the service and drive back to the Boro and submit my paperwork. Then I must return and pick it up. So I will 3hrs into the project before I start. If I had workmans comp. No worries just sign here put the policy # and off you go. Am I wrong to feel slighted here?

Ob

It is the kind of thing I would argue about and see if I could get settled before I had another job there.

If you are in their presence with id, why would you need to have something notarised? That seems stupid

Ob:
I'm not up to speed on the Keystone State's 'rules' anymore, but, do you have statewide licensing?

In the Twp I work in, you can get a 100-200 resi service permit right at the counter, as long as you are licensed, seal the app, and have a check or money order.

Certificates of insurance are required for work other than minor.

Have you ran into this situation in other towns?

BTW, we always have at least one notary in the building, in the event anyone requires the services.

John, do you have blank permits?
When my wife was selling AC systems the contractors could buy a stack of blanks, fill them in when they sold the job, put a call into the recorder when they started and call for the inspection when it was done. It allowed them to replace a system over a weekend on an emergency call and still have a permit.

I think it was more "revenue" than anything else. Inspections were a spotty thing. Some cards were never signed but the permit got closed. Maybe the guy just misplaced his pen

There was a limit to what you could do on these blank permits. They did include service upgrades in some cases if the existing was deemed inadequate.

That process may be online by now. I am away from it these days.

Greg:

No, we do not have 'blank' permit filings.

For 'emergency' work, the electrical contractors can place a phone call to the Construction Office, stating the jobsite, emergency nature of the work & their info. They must file the 'paper' within 3 business days, & pick up & pay when ready & schedule an inspection. This procedure is 'by the book' (UCC) and IMHO is fair.

'Emergency' status can be heating, HVAC, services, and other items, at the discression of the Subcode Official. This works for Plumbing and Building also. All it takes to stay out of trouble is a phone call. If it's 'after hours', our office phones have voice mail, and there is also email. Some of the contractors & prop owners (select) have my cell phone number.

I thought it was strange when I heard it but the more I thought about the better it sounded. These replacements were usually done without any permits at all.
Since there was really no zoning or plan review issues I thought it was a elegant solution. The up side for the county was that they had the money in hand ahead of time. If the code enforcement guy got a "neighbor" call(the way most guys get caught), there was a permit card posted and they had the recorder message as a cross check. Occasionally they actually did inspect this, just often enough to keep the contractor honest.

I just looked and it seems they have replaced this with a fax in application that you either "E-Pay" for registered users or use a credit card.

Ob, went through the same deal here in VT

In fact i spent an entire afternoon on the phone to my insurance rep & the state office of WC creating something of a tirade

at present, i have to have WC, as a type S corp, even if i'm all alone by myself

AND , i can sign off on executive officers, meaning i have a policy allowing me to work, bid, etc, yet covering no one in an incident

follow me so far?

a brief synopsis would be the state basically bowing down to the insurance nazi's, especially blue state's looking to grease the HC machine

this comes straight from a state rep btw, most small contractors don;t have HC insurance, assumably ending up costing jobs $$$$ if they get hurt,(or limp to work claimig so)

juxtapose this with the insurance cabal loosing on their S&P's of late, and you've a recipe for legislative teeth looking for our contractual hides

like i say all the time when these issue arise (because they are a contractors concern) FOLLOW THE $$$$

~S~

We (NJ) have permit docs available online to save a trip into the office for the forms. They are just form, that have to be filled out and dropped/mailed to the Construction Office for processing. Some say the State required (UCC) paperwork is borderline anal. There was/is a program called 'efile' that was being tested in some towns, but I have not heard anything.

My Twp processes 4000+ permits, not including updates, change of contractor, etc., all paper.

The 'fax-in' sounds like an idea. The only issue would be the required 'raised seal' from the EC. (State Law) As to "E-Pay"....we may get there someday.

I recently implemented plan review comments via email to the architects/PEs that provide email addresses. If no email address, then the rejection comments go via US mail. Noone has complained yet!

John,


Technically (according to the DCA) HVAC system is not an "emergency" job. However if an EC calls the office and tells me that he is doing the job, I don't have a problem with that.
I would be happy just to have an EC sign the permit and cal for an inspection.

Harold:

I was not aware that they had an 'approved list of emergency' items.

I have no issue with proceeding as outlined in my above post.

John,

There was no "List" of emergencies, I was just told that from Suzanne. However if an older citizen who has health issues needs an AC right of way, I don't have a problem with that.

IMHO, it's the AHJs decision as to what constitutes work performed under the 'emergency protocall'

Getting somewhat off track, do you know what this discussion is beginning to sound like to me? It's beginning to sound like a discussion about the income tax.

That is, permits and inspections can only work with the voluntary compliance of the public.

This concept in turn suggests that the process needs to have a LOT of flexibility- an interesting challenge, since the nature of bureaucracies is to not be flexible at all.

Reno:

Good afternoon! Without getting into anything political, do you have any permit related woes??

Actually, No. Goes back to that 'willing compliance' thing.

I did have a government functionary drop by my home to inquire about my ongoing remodel, though. I must confess that my welcome did not reflect 'southern hospitality.'

You see, I have taken pains to work with the city, and have made damn sure everything is 'by the book,' and they are kept informed. More to the point, I know the city folks by now- and this gent sure wasn't amongst them.

A request for ID led to a comment about the rough day I was having - as well as the production of an out-of-state welfare department ID. (As an aside, did you realize that "DHS" can also stand for "Department of Human Services" as well as 'homeland security?' Look at the fine print!)

Now, this presented an interesting situation. You don't have to talk to these folks at all, but you sure can't lie to them- yet they can lie to you at will. At least, that's what my friend Martha Stewart tells me . When his inquiry about the remodel got nowhere, he claimed to be concerned about a neighbor ..... later, he wanted to know when my place was last occupied. Gee, I wonder what he really was interested for? It's not often they cross state lines on 'fishing trips.'

For those who don't recall, the house is a $6000 forclosure that I bought, and is in the midst of a complete-gut remodel.

At this moment, in fact, I have nothing happening that requires a permit; I'm still in the 'demolition' phase. As I mentioned, I've been working quite closely with the AHJ. Yet, that simple fact did not prevent this gent from attempting to bluff his way onto property where he had no right to be, to search where he had no probable cause.

Maybe someone needs to have a chat with 'the guys down the hall' aboput how they're poisoning the well of public goodwill.

Who was this guy from? Was he a building inspector, zoning, "code enforcement" (the "junk car in the yard" guys) or was he the tax man?

It is unclear from your post what he wanted.

On my remodel, I saw the various trade inspectors and the tax man but that was right on schedule. They look at everyone every 2 years.
Sometimes our code enforcement people use the life safety excuse to look over a place when they suspect a non-conforming occupancy.

A particular problem in Vermont is, all rentals require permits

of course that sounds easy, but seeing as we are more 2nd homes than 1st, we really never know the owners intent

the state has, i've been told, actively monitoring the rental sections of local rags

~S~

With VT rentals, yes Reno.

The challenge being, either it's zero (maybe zoning IF the particular township has it) , or everything the state has , fire marshal , electrical & plumbing inspectors

All they have to do is maintain that it's only a 2nd home

Now as a contractor, i'm apt to insist on the whole 9 yards , in case their 'ball game' changes, in order to protect myself.

Usually i'll mention how rough the ski bunny crowd can be , which they do party hard , and @ 3-4K a long weekend i guess you could say they've paid their way for it

I'll also mention landlord liability , and potential insurance woes one could asume renting to said animal house crowd

Lemme tell ya's , being a contractor is tough enough in this economy, using us as point men to open pandor's box places us in a position of situational ethics, which many a trunk slammer will make good on

and no, i'm not policing job sites for the state. (that's a rant i'll save for an appropriate thread)

IMHO, if the state 'dept of public safety' wants to pursue rentals, they can chum up with the state tax collection agency instead of trying to 'flex' the contractual community into it, and then all those out of state landloards, rental agencies, etc can pay the $$$ of retrofitting the life safety they're trying to get outta

~S~

Greg, the man carried ID indicating he was employed by a state agency that administered welfare, food stamps, and other assorted "benefits." His ID was from a neighboring state.

In short, his prowling about was not only without any justification in any jurisdiction .... he was well out of his! He was as out of place as a Mountie at a Luau.

What did he really want? I still have no idea. He asked about, or mentioned, three separate issues. When his allusion to my remodeling activities got nowhere, he asked about a neighbor, then asked about the previous occupancy of the house. On leaving, he mentioned 'fraud' and trying to save 'my' tax dollars.

Most telling was his response when I asked what his duties had to do with me. "Well, someone's having a rough day." Not really. More accurate would be to say that peeking through my windows is likely to put me in a 'defend the castle' mood, and I'll want to know just WHO he is and WHAT he wants before the welcome mat comes out.

I suppose the lesson to this is that the 'lack of love' you may feel was probably inspired by prior unpleasant experiences. As long as a man considers himself to be free, and not just the government's property, you've got to expect the public to really dislike words like 'must.' The public is also going to be cynical every time catch-all excuses like 'the public welfare' get casually tossed about.

There's such a thing as 'warrants,' a concept far too many functionaries work far too hard to circumvent. Sure, let's send in the game warden to look for poached deer (he doesn't need a warrant); he can then give us 'probable cause' for whatever we imagine might be within those walls.

Sound far fetched? Well, I was asked to not get too political- but there's no escaping the simple fact that laws are, by definition, political. As my little encounter illustrates, there's also plenty of reason to be prudent.

I would have pulled out my phone, took pictures of him, his vehicle, tag and called the sheriff.
It sounds like the fraud was him.

Reno:

I agree with Greg 100%. IF anyone up/over here was to do what you said, and they happened to have any state licenses.....they no longer would.

Well, there's a thought .... and, believe me, had he persisted in attempting entry I most certainly would have had Johnny Law out- to verify his authority, if for no other reason.

Fact is, had he attempted to force entry, a camera would have been the SECOND thing I would have thought to reach for.

Yet, such encounters do put the citizen between a rock and a hard place. It's perfectly reasonable for the bureaucrats to try to monitor the funds they disburse- and quite often those checks go out-of-state. It's not impossible for an Alaskan lawman to have official business in Florida. Plus, there's the natural tendency to see what you can accomplish without obtaining warrants, etc. After all, we've all seen the strip-club video that the workmans' comp inspector took of the 'completely disabled' lady showing the most amazing athletic abilities

As I keep saying: the use of government is the use of force. It's a tool best used most sparingly.

lol! you really do pluck the strings of my redneck heart Reno.....~S~

Last night's Humane Society meeting provides another little tale that, perhaps, will identify some of the quirks of the system:

I am involved with the local humane society. A person in town has donated a former business property to the society for use as a thrift store.

As it turns out, the business was 'grandfathered in' when the area was annexed to the town. Since the business has been closed for awhile (proprietor died, widow is donating), it is now necessary to apply for a change in the zoning in order to operate a thrift store on the location. That's right; the town had classed that business property as 'residential.'

So now it is necessary to apply to the planning commission, send out notices, and go before the town board.

As luck would have it, the Humame Society has as active members folks who also happen to be part of the respective city and county departments. The expectation is that the various hoops will be lept through both quickly and at minimal expense.

I'd hate to think of the confusing nightmare it would be if, instead, I had been wishing to base a contracting business from that same location. These functionaries taking it upon themselves to guide the paperwork through all the steps of the unknowable process will clearly ease, and expedite, the process. I mean, who's going to tell their boss 'no?'

Left unsaid is whether the property would have been donated, had the widow been able to sell it as a business property. Had her husband made a miraculous recovery after a long illness, it's very possible that the laws would have prevented him from re-opening his business.

(BTW, now you also have some insight as to why I was certain that the mysterious 'inspector' described earlier had nothing to do with city hall).

The life safety issues should be beyond the political wrangling that comes from "activists". I would not be shocked in this renovation was more extensive than they expect. I would hope so anyway. If it was my patch, it would come up to current code before they opened as a public enterprise.

I have not looked at the place, so i have no idea what code issues might present themselves.

I suppose the tale is a pretty good reminder of the long road the public has to travel before they get anywhere near the permit desk.

Seven trips for a 362 sq ft addition with no plumbing or HVAC.

There was a radio news report that here in Winnipeg all the building trades were experiencing a slowdown in starting projects due to City of Winnipeg plan review and inspection staff being off on summer holidays.

My wife was talking to the girl who she brought up in the house business back in the happy times. She is working for a developer and it seems that the permit people in the Orlando area are actually trying to slow down the permit process.
The real estate people who control the county council think they need to limit new construction until inventory has worked itself down. That is probably great on a macro economic basis but it is tough if you are a builder with a lot of "sold and un-built". Of course it is also tough on the trades who would like the work.

The flip side is, real estate taxes are based on home prices and excess inventory drives down those prices.

Yup , welp , i'm on a huge ( i mean acres, people use cell phones to find each other) job lauded as Springfiled Vermonts economic salvation Greg

And you know, i was nervous walking into it all, spent considerable time trying to cross my T's, dot my I's etc

Of course, all the local politicians have made it thier mecca to stump about how great it all is, and take credit

But what's also happening is, almost every imaginable code/osha/life safety/employment/permit violation you could think of

And this is right on down the street from the state offices, in fact they pass by it every morning on their way in /out

I have never been involved in situational ethics of this magnitude , where everyone of authority 'looks the other way'

nor do i approve of any given offical process bowing down to politics

~s~:

"But what's also happening is, almost every imaginable code/osha/life safety/employment/permit violation you could think of

And this is right on down the street from the state offices, in fact they pass by it every morning on their way in /out

I have never been involved in situational ethics of this magnitude , where everyone of authority 'looks the other way'"

Without going into any political arena, or using choice words, I have to say a situation like that would not happen. 'Looking the other way' is not tolerated, by or for anyone, politically connected, politician, or your everyday Joe.

You added as the closing line:
"nor do i approve of any given offical process bowing down to politics"

BRAVO to you!!!

thanx HotOne, i'm glad you don't think me niave....~S~

Never crossed my mind ~s~!

Sorry I am late again, I was off line thanks to that hurricane that passed through NJ. I was without power for 5 days. If someone came up to my house and didn't present the right credentials, or even if I didn't think the credentials looked correct, I would ask them to leave and have their office call me. Then after they called me, I would call the office (that they said they were with) to confirm that.)

Not for nothing, I am not a scarey looking person, but not many people ask me to see my ID when I go in a house for inspection. They all seem to trust me. Granted, I would hope that they or the contractor told them that I would be coming in for an inspection. Plus, I do not have a problem with any HO looking over my shoulders and asking questions.

In fact 1 time I went out for an inspection of a BA/FA system and the HO asked my ,"What exactly are you looking for?" I think he wanted to know what his permit fee was going to get him. So I explained how I was looking at the work that the alarm installer did, if he grounded his alarm panel, marked the breaker for the alarm circuit, etc. As I was talking to him, I also gave him a red sticker because the alarm guy took out a knockout and never used a bushing or connector to bush the hole, plus he never grounded the panel. So as I was walking out and giving him the red sticker, I said, "This is what I get paid to do. To make sure that the installer did your installation correctly." He couldn't thank me enough. Plus he was happy to see me when I went back to redo the final inspection. Which passed.

The state gave me an ID card that is punched for a clip and I wore it whenever I was working.

Greg,

Actually, I do have 4 different ID cards issued by each town. It is just a pain to wear them all, but I do carry them in my clip board at all times.

You would look like those guys who walk around the pentagon who need a separate ID badge for every room they go in. I have seen some of those guys with 10 or more, usually on chains around their neck.

Greg,

By the end of the day, my back would be out from carrying too many ID cards. I also carry those metal clipboards that can hold stuff. In there is a ruler, screwdriver and mirror. How many times is the specs on an HVAC in the back of the unit. Plus my red and white stickers, and I also have a "Violations" list. This is just a long piece of paper, that states time, date, permit #, type of inspection, address and a blank lines to fill in. I use this when I have more than 3-4 items to be corrected. Then all I do is write it up once, and give the HO/EC the copy of the list. I staple the original to the inspection card and it goes back into the file.

Bear in mind that I did not doubt that the person who visited me was an actual government employee. IMO, he was simply exceeding his authority and outside his jurisdiction.

I also draw attention to the format of the ID, which seemed intended to encourage you to make assumptions as to what "DHS" stood for. That, alone, shows a certain amount of contempt towards the public by the agency.

Add to this the story about construction shutting down because the office was on vacation. Are we beginning to understand the scale of the problem?

harold:

Twp Photo ID tag is all I need. Yes, I have inspection report forms in duolicate also. While we are on that aspect, how many 'items' do you write? Do you give a laundry/punch list??

Or, do you practice the 'three strikes and I'm out' theory? Three infractions, noted on 'red'; next line 'inspection stopped/incompleted' and leave!

My forms had a "not ready" box and when they had a lot of issues that is what I used. We had a second form that was basically just a lined page. I wrote my notes and punch list on one of those. I would leave 2 copies (one for the trade and one for the project manager) and keep a copy but that was not submitted to the state.
Since most of my inspections required a long drive (some over 100 miles one way) I usually confirmed with the caller before I went. More than once, I got a "not ready" on the phone.

Just got back from a ride out to a nieghbor town, fellow ems'er called me in to 'inspect water damaged residential electrical services'

well, the poco has this nifty form for me to fill out, apparently it promotes a sparky to ad hoc inspector

i've done individual assessments , but never saw one before this hurricane

all fine & well, but in the case of a commercial property, there is the further need for the fire marshal to make a visit on top of this

as i spent a good hour mitigating this goat trail they carved through the woods to get there, (there's more choppers than cars getting in at the moment) i'll assume he won't show soon

besides, they're all flat out right now

and these folks have been in the dark for almost a week

~S~

John,

I know I should just do a 3 strikes and your out red sticker, but I sometimes write a punch list. This way when I come back, I know just what I was looking for.

Harold:

I know where you're coming from on that method. I, on occasion go that route when time allows. I have to go thru the whole job, but...I do it to make a point to the EC that HE should have checked the job before he called for inspection.

It seems to me you have to find the rules for "sole-propreitorship and a company" . I know as a sole prop in RI I don't need worker's comp if I am a sole prop or make anyone I work with an equal partner.

See,
This is why I'm glad we ditched the permit system over here in 1993, in favour of self-certification.
How this works is this, for most smaller jobs, you use a "Certificate Of Compliance", to buy these things, you must have a practicing licence as a qualified electrician and sign for either a single one or you can buy a "book" of 20 of them, from your supply house.

On the actual certificate, you state what work you have done, any pre-existing conditions, there is room for a simple drawing.
You must also sign the certificate, give your real name in block capitals and add your practicing licence #.
There is also a part of the page that requires you to write down things like test results, leaving that part blank, will open you up to all sorts of legal liability, if you can't be bothered testing your own work, before energising it.

The best thing about these certificates is, they are in triplicate, you give the top copy to the home-owner/building owner, the second copy to your own records and the third is sent off to the Electrical Workers Registration Board, if they ask you to send a certain sequence of COC's for auditing purposes, you need to keep that copy for a period of 5 years, after it was signed.

Usually,
In most cases, you're talking about an electrician, signing these certificates off.
It's really only where you go making wholesale changes to an installation (say moving the mains coming into the building or upgrading a service, pretty much where the MEN point is altered), that an electrical inspector here would be required to co-sign the COC.

Sure there are probably people out there "working under the radar", but at the end of the day, those that want to stay in business for any length of time, are going to be asked the question by a customer, where is my COC?
There has been a HUGE media campaign over here and I've been asked to show my practicing licence, even just to get in the door.

Sorry to take this thread off topic.

Trumpy:

That is NOT off topic!

Thanks for the NZ input!!

Mike, If the installer is also the inspector, who is the person who decides if the work was "not compliant", the firemen who sift through the ashes?

I seem to remember someone telling me that there is a similar procedure for New York City. Can't remember all the details; perhaps Mr Bill has some.

Careful John, you might be making your job obsolete.

Actually that is the way the State of Florida worked (on internal state projects) until 1995 when they passed the inspector licensing law and forgot to exempt themselves.
It is how I got my job. I was one of the early licensed electrical inspectors in the state.
In 2002 they tossed it back to the local AHJ.

Greg, your statement may be great rhetoric ... but I'm just not seeing it justified in reality.

That is, I have not noticed any greater quantity or creativity in the 'hack' work whether the area I have been in was greatly regulated or completely unregulated.

Indeed, the simple existance of building regulation seems to inspire folks to go to great lengths to break the rules.

Reno:

Inspiration of some to violate rules, by the fact that there are rules has probably existed since the dawn of man.

Yes, 'hack' quality work exists here. To which I have to say that it's shameful that a licensed EC, who took and passed the test, along with documenting trade experience, perform in that manner. This is another rant, for another time.