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Posted By: switches Last fuse panels - 07/30/11 05:27 PM
Hello,
I hope I'm asking this in the correct forum. What is the latest panel installed you saw that used fuses?

I have heard that some have seen them installed as late as 1972, 200 amp panels with fuses. I was surprised.

Was there anything in code that would prevent them from being installed today, given the proper adapters were used?

I think the first fuse 'panel' I saw was a simple ceramic fuse holder for some abandoned K&T wiring. It had two fuse holders, that I assume fused the hot and neutral sides of a single circuit. It was surface mounted about 6-7 feet from the floor, all exposed.
Posted By: sparkyinak Re: Last fuse panels - 07/30/11 06:39 PM
Hi switches, welcome to the board. I haven't ever install one or saw them installed on a newer building. I do remember seeing them in a catalog just a few years ago. I don't think anyone makes traditional fuse panel anymore. In theory one could be used but with the hassle to get it to meet code and usability of it, why would you?
Posted By: gfretwell Re: Last fuse panels - 07/30/11 09:07 PM
My house in Md (built 1971) had a SqD fuse panel with "S" adapters.
As far as I know, you could install one today.
Posted By: HotLine1 Re: Last fuse panels - 07/31/11 12:27 AM
I have to go with Greg; if you could find one,you could install it.

The only 'today' fuse panel that I know of, I saw in some Bussmann literature for selective coordination.
There are a few installed in a 'new' building at our county college.




Posted By: renosteinke Re: Last fuse panels - 07/31/11 12:54 AM
While there's no rule against having fuses for your overcurrent protection, I think you'd be torpedoed by a few other 'details.'

First off, I'm not sure there's room in a fuse box for a ground buss- or a place to terminate a ground wire from the feeder.

GFCI and, especially, AFCI protection might be a bit difficult to add.

I note the NEC has also banned screw-in fuses for 240v or multi-wire circuits.

Finally, I'm not sure I've even seen any fused panels that were even NEMA-3R rated- not even the ones mounted outdoors.
Posted By: HotLine1 Re: Last fuse panels - 07/31/11 01:15 AM
Reno:

GREAT points with AFCI!! And 240 volt. I guess the roof shingles over the fuse box don't make it 3R today!
Posted By: gfretwell Re: Last fuse panels - 07/31/11 03:17 AM
... But what about the "device type" AFCI? It's in the code, it must be everywhere. wink

The SqD panel I had was the same can that they would put a 200a breaker panelboard in. There were places drilled and tapped for ground buses. I added one myself.
I always wonder just how much the builder could have possibly saved by using fuses by the time he added 20 "S" adapters and all those fuses. I did end up with a spare pullout since the only 240v thing installed was the A/C unit.
Posted By: noderaser Re: Last fuse panels - 08/01/11 04:53 AM
I've been thinking... Do you think using fuses would make it more likely that a homeowner would check out the problem when a problem exists, rather than just resetting the breaker switch over and over? Or would that just keep Cooper/Bussman in business? I'm thinking about overload/short situations. Anyone in the UK have experience with fuses in every plug; how often do you guys actually replace one? I suppose you probably see the gum-wrapper/nail fuse from time to time. I have a melted christmas light plug from one of those, courtesy of my Dad's "fixing".

Wouldn't a time-delay fuse actually be better for nuisance tripping (thinking spa/hot tub) versus a traditional breaker? Of course, you'd have to come up with GFCI some other way.
Posted By: gfretwell Re: Last fuse panels - 08/01/11 05:06 AM
I think fuses, as long as the holder rejects a larger size are far safer than a breaker. There is a lot less to go wrong.

The scary thing is they make an S adapter for 20a fuses that also takes a 30. I see them on 15ga wire. My neighbor had a fuse box full of them. I finally talked her into a service upgrade.
Posted By: renosteinke Re: Last fuse panels - 08/01/11 01:20 PM
Noderaser. you've hit on the 'grounds up or down' argument regarding fuses vs. circuit breakers.

All I can say is that I've seen very few over-size breakers, while over-fusing seems to be the norm. Plus, I've never had to try to buy a replacement breaker at 8PM Sunday evening.

(Well, almost never. I did get a service call where the 100-amp breaker feeding a subpanel failed at a laundromat- and that was at 11PM Sunday laugh )

As for troubleshooting skills- in all honesty, I'm not impressed by my own. I'm even less impressed by folks whose first assumption is that the breaker is 'weak' or the GFCI 'defective.'
Posted By: HotLine1 Re: Last fuse panels - 08/01/11 01:30 PM
Working within the 'inner cities' back many years, the 30 amp plug fuses were what I found in the majority of the fuse panels. HOs and tenants bought them 'cause they lasted longer' that the 15-20 amp ones. They had no clue, except the economics of buying the 'longer lasting ones'.

I also came upon many instances of 'warm' fuse boxes, and toaster wire!

The S adaptors that I installed were bastardized and higher amperage S fuses were forced in.

Over the years, I also came accross copper pipe used for 30, 60 & 100 amp fuses in disconnects!

Fuses are not to blame!
Posted By: Texas_Ranger Re: Last fuse panels - 08/02/11 01:29 AM
Same here... Diazed fuses are keyed by rings with different inner diameters screwed into the base, preventing the use of fuses with thicker tips. However, a) the rings are porcelaine and thus fairly easy to destroy with brute force and b) they aren't exactly tamperproof or irremovable, they just screw in. They do require a special key, but that is easily substituted with two flat blad screwdrivers. Besides, both keys and rings of all sizes are sold in every DIY store. Every time I find one of those keys in a fuse box I immediately get suspicious (even though there were legit reasons to use one, at some point even 1.5mm2 wires that can be fused 10A (16A in Germany) by today's standards were only fused 6A, similarly with larger wires).
Posted By: brianl703 Re: Last fuse panels - 08/08/11 09:58 PM
I own a house that was built in '74 with a Murray fuse panel. As I recall it had 15 screw-in fuses which were connected to a 60-amp pullout. There was a 50-amp pullout for the range, a 30-amp pullout for the dryer and another 30-amp pullout for the air conditioner. It was a split-bus panel.

It had a neutral and ground bus with plenty of room, and physically it was as large as a breaker panel with an equivalent number of circuits. It's now sitting in a landfill somewhere, having been replaced.
Posted By: switches Re: Last fuse panels - 08/09/11 04:33 PM
Brian, that's interesting that they installed a fuse panel that late. I'm wondering if some of these fuse panels installed in the 70s were not older stock that they were using up.
Posted By: HotLine1 Re: Last fuse panels - 08/09/11 07:13 PM
I did a quick search, and found one online supplier with a Wadsworth 4 plug, 2 pull out panel. It did not say 'new', or 'used', although they did offer 'used' parts?

Just to clarify something I posted above, the selective coordination fuse panels (Bussmann) are cartridge fuses, not plug (screwshell) type.

Posted By: sparky Re: Last fuse panels - 08/10/11 02:45 AM
Originally Posted by switches
Hello,
I hope I'm asking this in the correct forum. What is the latest panel installed you saw that used fuses?

I have heard that some have seen them installed as late as 1972, 200 amp panels with fuses. I was surprised.

Was there anything in code that would prevent them from being installed today, given the proper adapters were used?

I think the first fuse 'panel' I saw was a simple ceramic fuse holder for some abandoned K&T wiring. It had two fuse holders, that I assume fused the hot and neutral sides of a single circuit. It was surface mounted about 6-7 feet from the floor, all exposed.



Well Switches, i'm compelled to forward the distinction of resi from commerical here, and disconnects from panels, as fuses really dis get a bad rap in the resi scene

~S~

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