Gentlemen:

Brought over from another thread, and let's see if we get any 'action'.

Permit issues, both from the AHJs and the Contractors!

Sound off here!

How could that be? Building departments are well oil machines aren't they

That HVAC thing we were talking about involves a bit of a dance. They will drop the condenser, get the mechanical final and walk it through for the CO on the day before the close or maybe the day of the close if it is late afternoon.
Back in the days of big bonuses my wife actually closed houses with out water, to a customer who wasn't planning on moving in right away. The buyer got a little bit of a break on the price to close before the end of the quarter and everyone made their bonus.

Those were crazy times.

Now days it is just the theft thing. Nobody wants several thousand dollars worth of condenser sitting outside a vacant house. People are even stealing them from occupied houses. They even leave the lineset coiled up in the attic and don't shove it out the hole until they set the condenser. People are buying expanded metal cages for their condensers. I suppose they will get stolen too. Steel is 13 cents a pound.

Greg:

We have been fortunate (or lucky), as I am only aware of two (2) HVAC units 'vanishing' from a SFD that was vacant. That was about 2 years back, and there's thought that they were 'repossesed' by an unpaid person.

We had a few instances of copper plumbing thefts, and recently 600KCMil copper.

BTW, we do not have a Mechanical Inspector. It goes to Elec (wiring & OCP), Plumb for condensate & gas piping, Fire for flue/PVC venting, & Bldg for ductwork. I know that having to 'wait' for four (4) possible inspectors may sound crazy, but that's how it is.

That might be the same guy here. When the AHJs started laying people off it was by the number of licenses you held. The more you were licensed for, the better chance you had to survive. First to go were the guys who only had a driver's license (the code enforcement guy, tall grass and cars on blocks in your yard). Then it worked it's way down from there.
We had a lot of overqualified gray hair riding around running calls on nosy neighbor complaints.

Here's a result of copper theft: Not sure if it was cable or mains-gas pipe, [usually copper in the UK.]
By pure luck, no one was hurt. Note at 0.25 the front door swings shut as an overpressure wave travels in front of the actual gas explosion.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/new...uge-gas-explosion-at-Yorkshire-home.html

http://www.dps.state.vt.us/fire/forms/index.html

Vermont's permits are fairly user friendly, if i were to suggest any change, it would be to include a short narrative along with of the list of specifics.

I mean, we're asked to wire some wierd stuff at times, or invited into reno's where we really haven't much of a plan until it gets opened up. Vt's dept is permit funded, nothing much from the general fund, so we're supporting the trade's well being via a permit here

The state's biggest complaint right now is that contractors start work then file a permit, that's been a growing problem since the economy dictated we sit by the phone and do backflips for a living

On that note, one of the more tenured state silverbacks gave me his cell # , and the priveldge to call in on my whereabouts, permit in the mail by end of day....

The only other thing that's changed is their name, it's no longer the 'Dept of labor & Industry' , it's the 'Dept of Public Saftey' Rumour was because they can get Homeland Security grants, but i still see them driving the same old beaters....

~S~

I have never heard of a big problem with Lee County's electrical permit/inspection process. IMHO they are too easy. I have seen things approved that I would never let get by.
Florida enforces a uniform electric code state wide, basically the 2008 NEC with a couple changes.

Where things get tough here is the structural code. They have a real wind code and the permit must be submitted with stamped engineering for just about anything (even a little shed). They do not have those exceptions you hear about up north for "portable buildings". (sheds or structures below a certain size, no floor or without a foundation etc). If you set it up on your property, it needs to meet the wind code with engineering to prove it and you need a permit. Virtually none of those "shed in a box" things you buy up north are legal here. The feeling is if it is not an engineered structure, it is a missile in a storm.
There are some preassembled sheds we accept but they have been engineered to code (essentially "wind code listed") and require a foundation or an approved tie down system, permitted and inspected.

That blindsides a lot of people. They build a little shed for their lawn mower with plans from a book at Home Depot and end up tearing it down.
It took me 4 tries to get my addition through plan review and I knew the drill. In the end the engineer ended up stamping the original plans I drew with a few additional notes from his CAD program and that sailed through.

Sparky hit a good one with this comment:

"The state's biggest complaint right now is that contractors start work then file a permit, that's been a growing problem since the economy dictated we sit by the phone and do backflips for a living"

I understand that these are not 'the good times' that we had, but tough times for a lot of us. That said, yes, a job may vanish while getting a permit, because someone else 'just did it' without.

I don't have an exact figure available, but within the last 60 days, the Twp office probably issued $15k in fines for work without permits. That's the ones that were caught! Some were for starting jobs while the apps were in for plan review.

We have legal, approved procedures for 'some' jobs going forward before the actual paper is issued, but the procedure must be followed, or a honest effort to communicate with the construction office.

I'm a firm believer in 'most, if not all' of us have one time or another worked without permits.

Now, we here know it's not just a "Jersey thing"!

Generally speaking, getting caught working without a permit here results in double all of the permit fees plus the cost of opening up anything you have done for a look inside.

Greg:
IF the work is in progress, a Stop Work' placard is posted at the site, and the 'workers are told to vacate. A Stop Work document, along with a Notice of Violation, and Board of Appeals form are prepared and either mailed (Cert & Reg), or sometimes hand delivered to the offender/owner. Usual $$ is $2000 which may be negotiated down for an acceptable reason.

Continuing to proceed with work under a Stop can result in $2k per day, and it may be enacted for each trade.

These are state forms and procedures.

A more serious situation for Licensed ECs, Plumbers, is notification of the State Boards. They levy fines of $10k, suspensions, for repeat offenders.
They also have a payment plan of regular installments.

The trunk slammers that are long gone, or hiding, IF they get snagged, face a local fine, and are handed over to the Board (State) for that trade.

As any comedian will tell you, timing is of the essence.

The concept of 'public servant' is simply dishonest; 'government' is by definition legalized thuggery. It's not as if you have a choice, or can choose a competitor!

Oh, sometimes they put on a pretty PR face, but the simple fact remains that you need them - and they feel they don't need you. Hence the building departments that have limited hours, etc. They couldn't care less about your 'convenience.'

Look for them to get even more draconian, and surlier, as budgets tighten and they suddenly look at all the fees and penalties thay can impose. Look for them to take a page from LEED, and charge you for every step. Need to correct your plans to accomodate their requirements? Look to pay another fee. Need a reinspection? Pay again.

Likewise, look for them to extend their reach into areas formerly exempt. I'll bet Chicago will follow Florida's lead, and require engineered plans for a dog house- after all, it's the windy city, isn't it?

Never forget that the original reason for 'police' was to collect the King's taxes- not to keep granny from getting mugged. Remember that whenever there is a sudden concern voiced over 'public safety.'

Around here, most times working without a Permit is smoothed over by a friendly call to the Alderman...unless he has it out for the person doing the work.

It's depressing to see how many politicians see obtaining a Permit and complying with the Code as a nuisance. We're trying to avoid future problems with poory done work and they see it as something that makes their voters unhappy. Then they complain that the revenue from issuing Permits is much lower than projected.

Oh, well; What are you going to do?

Reno:

My intent within this single post is not to start a flame war, just to respond.

"The concept of 'public servant' is simply dishonest; 'government' is by definition legalized thuggery. It's not as if you have a choice, or can choose a competitor!"

The implications of that statement would be extreemly objectionable to employees within my office.

Yes, there basically is 'no choice', but there are channels that can be followed for any defense of non-compliance.

I will end this with one comment: I do not go out looking for violators, never did, never will. I have to do my job and respond to complaints. And, FWIW, dropping a dime on someone to the State is not somewhere that I would go, unless the situation called for that.

They drop a stop work here too. I am not sure what fines are imposed beyond doubling the permit fee tho. There can also be a complaint filed with the license people. From what I see you have to make the AHJ mad to get that. (repeat offender, egregious violations or just being a "hole")
The funny thing is the trunk slammers with no licenses at all get off easier than a licensed trade since they would have to file a criminal complaint, with everything that goes with that and not just an administrative action by the licensing board. Again you really have to be a bad actor for it to go that far. You have to get a DA mad at you.
The person who gets caught in the middle is the building owner because they end up being liable for anything done by an unlicensed worker along with any other liabilities that might arise (injuries, damage to other properties etc).

yup, been beat out by them quite a bit here, they even advertise themselves in the local rags w/o a license as 'cheaper' , and i've even had some use my company name

there's just no use in dropping a dime either, unless the DA's your uncle

but i figure i'll get even when i semi-retire to unlicensed handyman status doing small electrical jobs on the side after a hard day doling out bogus info at the big orange or blue place

look for the dude standing on the top of the ladder w/ a flask in his toolbelt
~S~

but Reno does make some good points HotOne. For instance, many states are facing austerity, so the first thing they cut are services that are less than apparent.

Myself, i've finished a job in April, and am still waiting for an electrical inspector's final to get paid

And i've been a 'public servant' now for 1/2 century, so i know all too well the public scrutiny one faces out there having to do XXXXXXXXXXXXXX with XXX, and maybe a promise of XX in next years fairy tale budget


imho, the defining line bettween public servant , and public nusiance is placing someone in said position year in and out




~S~

didn't know that

but i do watch the news

seems i've seen a number of engineered structures that just up and violate it all when mother nature comes to town....

~S~

I do believe in our wind code. If you really do what they say I believe your house will survive just about anything but a flood with minimal damage.

This is still one of my favorite pictures (150 mph wind code)

http://gfretwell.com/electrical/art.gilchrist.house.irpt.jpg

lol Greg! proof that those who go the extra mile for compliance really DO stand out!

~S~

i don't believe we have any such mechanism, or if we do it's just not utilized.

i have been on jobs where the state has ordered us (et all trades) out

last time wasn't really our fault, we had our individual permits, but the building owner had not obtained his building permit.

This was a reno which,i guess the impression was if the footprint didn't change , local (town) zoning didn't apply

but the state still required a building permit , because of all the life safety concerns

they really need to do lunch more often imho....

~S~

on that note,
i live on the boprder of VT & NH, so i hold a license in both.

dunno if there's any NH sparkies here, if so they can probably commiserate on the 'state of the state' permit process, etc

eastern NH is where all the populance resides, western NH is kinda like the land time forgot

for instance, over in NH you gotta have a license to change a light bulb, no exceptions as in VT

and the individual townships provide the permits for the state, which the state catalogs/ inspects / etc

so i cross the river for a service upgrade, real typical ho hum stuff, appear at T-hall and ask for a permit, to which they insist isn't their job, or necessary (the lady said 'it's nice that you have a license though)

typically, i also call the poco, to which the response was the usual 'call us when it's done' deal

so i rip off the old service, install the new, and tag onto the street w/temp taps....also accepted local practice here

next, calling the poco for the permanent connection, i'm told it needs inspection

so i call the state of NH next. Now the state of NH only has 3 bona fide electrical inspectors. I'm under the impression they try to hit as much as they can in any given area during the day, and this is way out in God's country

So he (the EI) asks "where's your permit?", to which my response was "can't get no, sir" , to which the rebuttal was "Thou shalt permit son!", which i retorted "no permitith township sir"

months later, the EI shows up, passes my work with little ado, and armed with the might and clout of unfunded state mandates , is off to impart his wrath on T-hall

Honest to God, we can wear our best EC halo out there, and still walk smack into the permit crossfire!

~S~

Greg:
The lone house pic is 'priceless'!!

I'm looling for one I had/have which illustrates why 'rated walls' are a good thing, and penetrations of those walls is not a goood thing.

Sparky. I have to say the Lee County people are very good and easy to deal with. They have always showed up for me (and my wife when she was building) right away. The rule is if you get the request in by about 6am they will be out that day but it is usually for "tomorrow" if you call during business hours. Actually you can do the whole thing online. The inspectors all have lap tops and you can usually Email them pictures if you just have a minor thing to fix. That can get the violation/repair cycle down to "same day". It is sure handy when you have concrete coming the next morning.

Overall I am a big fan of the Lee County building department (and I never worked there). They used to be horrible, 25 years or so ago, acting more as a block on development than a building department but now they have become very contractor friendly.

sparky:

"last time wasn't really our fault, we had our individual permits, but the building owner had not obtained his building permit."

Normally, that would not happen here, as only the complete package is released. When a 'partial' release happens,it is usually for footings, foundations; to allow the job to start, while plan review is completed.

If I get a chance next week, I'll scan some of our placards.

I'm amazed that NH has only three EIs. I remember a lot of beautiful, wooded, undeveloped lands, and a lot of miles between outposts.

Around here you need the full array of permits before they release the package. You can come back later with revisions or change the sub contractors with an addendum but they want all the boxes checked on the original application.

Sure, we're told ... get a permit. A permit. Then the job starts....

Every time you turn around there's ANOTHER inspector, with ANOTHER set of rules and changes. Even after you're 'signed off,' you get visits from folks who want to count the trees in the parking lot .....

Good heavens- just how many inspections can there be? Even a simple commercial remodel nearly needs someone there full-time, just to greet the countless inspectors.

At some point, the justifications begin wearing thin. I mean ... having a tree quota for the parking lot is a SAFETY concern?

Naturally, any grievance you may have is YOUR fault. YOUR fault that you didn't give them a larger budget, wider powers, a larger staff, a better stranglehold on you.

Of course .. I AM currently reading "Atlas Shrugged," and that might be winding me up ... a little

point taken HotOne, we could learn a thing or two up here without trying to reinvent the wheel ourselves


please do...., maybe i'll e-mail it to some people i know in the state



Western NH reminds me of northern VT, or maybe western Ma, in the sense that they are displaced (for lack of a better term) of the main body of the state , sort of a land time forgot, despite the predominant buearacracy

Personally, i don't think it makes the people there malicous in any sense to remain (again lack of adjective) politely misinformed of the general gestalt, modus operandi, et all state level zieghiest (someone stop me.........)

But i do sense the strain of those subjected to what is systemic collapse (apply the analogogy of phyisiological insult and towards our trade)

~S~

Subtlties here of particular caliber and depth Reno...

we are a symbiant entity, the trade and it's oversight

in fact, i've been IAEI certified , if only to advocate just that, and have invited many into the fold since

But you thorw all those self made invincible libetopians in the mix, and the next thing you know all that oversight is painted socialist


Thus we're gleefully off to throw each other under the bus while reciting Ayn Rand, who, FYI died of cancer while recieving government handouts under the pseudonym Ann O'Connor

The ranting hypocricy of the socially stunted, rejected, and 'died alone for a reason' jr high level misanthrpoists misfits should, imho, not be lauded as the salvation of social order in America


she was a da*m RUSKIE COMMIE for dog's sake...

Reno, that tree thing is not a building department, it is a zoning department thing.
Those people are just nuts.
We wanted to put in a half basketball court here in my little community (47x50)
The building department said no problem, we didn't even need a permit if we were not ever going to put a structure there.
Then the zoning people stepped up. They said we needed a development order ($350) that required a 27 page application, a public hearing and a sign off by the zoning board. Long story short, 4 months later we poured the slab.

I dont think we have a total of 27 pages in all of VT Greg

The spectrum of colloquial bureaucracy(s) really do amaze me, on one hand the inherent bumbledom machinations of sorts desiring to reinvent the wheel insiduously piles up into creating an inversely proportional efficacy

OTOH, lack of consideration for collectivist protectants creates the anarchy which is more what i do biz in here

It's really indicative of hierarchy's self enlightened interest to remain as exclusive as they do, i mean , it's not like we're countrires separated by oceans, they could do lunch once in a while.....

Boy, I'm glad I live here! If I want a new garage, or a complete house for that matter, I just go see M. le maire. If he says yes, the Prefect [or for that matter the President of the Republic] can go jump in the lake! Permits are just 'general' paperwork, qualifying what is within the law for a project,[map, areas, access, boundaries, services, sewerage etc.], but primarily so the State can persue you for more tax once you have improved your lot by spending your own money. Tradesmen can only operate within the narrow confines of their own trade, having been trained and qualified in their metier. They and only they decide what is the correct way to do any job, on site at the time it is done. Like a doctor, what he says goes. There are inspections, [ by the poco, sewage tech, water co ], to cover for the occasional fool.
As to trees, they are a commodity not a tourist attraction. If you want lumber or firewood..."TIMBER!"

If anybody has time, and would like to 'see' the NJ Uniform Construction Code, the following link takes you there.

http://www.state.nj.us/dca/divisions/codes/codreg/ucc.html

Reno:

I understand your thoughts that there may be what some perceive as 'too many inspections'. Could part of that be caused from a lack of communication between the builder/owner and the contractors.

As you mentioned a tree inspection, that is part of the site work, and has nothing to do with the building trades, but the responsibility of the developer/builder, owner. It falls to Engineering in the Twp I work in. Although it probably varies in other towns, with different departmental responsibilities.

Yes, it can be overwhelming.

[color:#660000]I dont think we have a total of 27 pages in all of VT Greg

I do not know the amount of paper involved from 'accross the hall' but before you can submit your building permit package, you are required to have zoning and/or engineering approvals. A basic zoning app is 1 page, 3 part NCR.

We have a very twisted thing going on here. The community of Estero wanted to secede from the county and become an incorporated town. In order to keep that tax base in the county coffers they made a deal with the devil, with a county ordinance. The Estero Design Committee has to stamp every permit that is not a stand alone single family dwelling (all commercial, new development or common property in an existing development). They have rules about what architecture is acceptable, trees, green space etc. That means everyone has the same "house of Zorro" look (barrel tile roof, taco bell facade with baby poop tan stucco).
This is an unelected board who are pretty much self appointed.
They are dominated by 2 gated community HOAs. I expect there will be a law suit some day that declares the whole thing unconstitutional but so far even Wal-Mart has bent over and taken their medicine in order to build here.

This is the only community in the county with this kind of power.

http://www.state.nj.us/dca/divisions/codes/codreg/ucc.html

something along the lines of NJAC 5.23-4B (Manufactured homes) would be a good start for what rolls across our borders HotOne, as well as have prevented my inclusion as 'expert witness' in a particular suit against a fly by night company i walked away from a year prior to said debacle

i really didn't need the hassle yanno...

~S~

well we're historically a mecca for wingnuts too Greg>
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kiGKAQkeIOY&feature=player_detailpage

they've even their own flag, etc>


in fact i've been approached by them, they really do put the fun in dysfunctional thinking they can do wthout courthouses, highways, nuke plants, schools and just about ever other federal entity here

myself, i just think they make a good argument for medical maryjane....

~S~

Amazing the hatred Ms. Rand inspires in some, and the desire to attack the messenger, rather than the message. I'm a bit thrown off by the fancy words in a couple posts; "Atlas Shrugged" is reserved for those of us limited to plain, literate English.

Another irony- one that has to be experienced to be appreciated- is the contrast between Reno, and my current area, near the Missouri bootheel.

At first the two cannot be more different: an involved permit process with multiple fees, vs. a near absence of permitting and inspections.

This may be heresy, but I fail to find any substantial difference in the quality or safety of the work I've seen, comparing the two areas.

Of course, the current situation -where the Reno area has essentially closed down their building departments, and filled the functions with park department personnel- helps to confirm that the REAL reasons for codes lie in control and revenue, rather than a concern for safety.

Contrast the assumptions of many in the inspection trade to the attitude voiced here by many, both within government and without: it's absolutely improper for government to think it has any right to tell a man what he can do with HIS property.

Now, Sparky, if I understand your post, that makes Arkansas something of a utopia. I'm pretty sure you're the first to say that!

These people are the opposite of that. They moved here from up north somewhere to "get away from it all" and now they want to bring "it all" here.

This is ironic since Estero was founded by the original Koreshans. (the guys the Waco people wanted to emulate)
Their leader was killed by the police too although the rest of the settlement was spared. No BATF with tanks in those days.


I beat them back in our little community by rallying the "silent majority". I rallied enough neighbors to defeat a proposal to reinstate deed restrictions 60-14 (the biggest turnout at an annual meeting in the 50 year history of the community. They expected to win 14 to 6 or 7.

There are still 14 people here who hate my guts FKM

We are really the only "unrestricted" managed development in Estero.
I used to be active in Estero politics but I walked out when they had a whole meeting about the size of an Arby's sign. (that was already the smallest one they had ever installed). It was literally 6' tall and could be covered with a 36" square of cardboard.

Randism is easily explained Reno, it's current revival is fueled by simple human greed , which has grown popular in our society's fiscal snafu right now. Her writings insist on a stance of self made men without government oversight, operating in an open market, where any such restraint applied is painted socialist.

This is what is commonly refered to as Libertopia, an ideology if applied to the electrical trade would mean no licensure, permits, NEC, NFPA, IAEI, OSHA, EPA, inspections, inspectors, etc. This would , in essesnce, be survival of the fittest anarchy. I'll go out on a limb and claim it'd fall on it's face fairly quick






Your point is well taken, in that a capitalist system only supplied capitalist remedies. I don't think anyone here will argue that the safety community , along with all it's perphrial ride alongs, are anything less than a business in America. I don't think anyone will argue that the aultrism suffers because of that. I do think there's a debate in it's efficacy due to it, and could cross state lines offering anecdotals like anyone else opining here.






Utopia, like Libertopia is the facade of idealouges Reno. IMHO, too little bueacracy tetters on anarchy, too much fascism, the trick is an acceptable balance which allows a society to tick without subscribing to either extreeme


~S~

Democracy in action plucks the strings of my star spangeled heart Greg, kudo's! ~S~

As John (HotLine1) mentioned in the 1st Page of this Thread:



I had done so a few times, back in the late 1980's - as the EC I was working for figured the risk factor to be beneficial.
"Stop Work" Notices proved otherwise, but you get the idea...

Currently, there is too much risk for me as a Designer / Engineer / PM, or in the rare occasion of actually installing stuff, to do any Project Sans Permit.

If a Client "hints" towards proceeding without Permits, I always ask "What will happen when your Insurance Carrier asks for Proof of Permits for the new Improvements?"
That usually gets the point across!

Per Unlicensed Contracting Work:
The California CSLB has included an additional "Sting Operation" to their list of Unlicensed Contracting searches.
This one involves "Handyman Classified Ads" from On-Line Databases, such as "Craig's List", "Angie's List", and ect.

Apparently, the "Bait" is to see if Unlicensed Persons will do work, which exceeds $500.00 Labor + Materials.

-- Scott

If anyone is interested, the link below is to the July 2100 Board Minutes. It's only two pages, but it shows the penalties and payment plan for two offenders.

The previous minutes are at the same site.

http://www.state.nj.us/lps/ca/electric/agenda/eleage_070611.pdf

Not to beat a dead horse, but I cannot let irrellevant mis-information stand unanswered.

I've pretty much finished reading "Atlas Shrugged," and I find nothing of the blather that has been attributed to Ayn Rand, the author. Instead, it's a fairly straightforward novel, depicting a world where government power is used to enforce sympathy-driven priorities, and any reference to actual results is taboo. The novel ends with the sympathy-driven society collapsing, and a new one, based upon results, arising.

I cannot speak to anything else the author may have said, elsewhere. Think of L. Ron Hubbard; one can enjoy his science fiction without finding a whit of his (later) religious ramblings. The same also applies to a great number of other authors.

No matter how gloved in velvet the government fist may be, government is all about the use of force. No less than George Washington made this observation. He was surely in a position to know.

Some have averred that 'their' department was reasonable, that the problems came from 'across the hall.' THAT is the problem. The road to permit / inspection hell is paved with sundry bureaus as the stepping stones- much as a tsunami is made up of innocent little raindrops.

When a company fails to serve a useful function, it goes out of business- no matter how noble the founders' intent. The same is not true of governemnt. Even now, in the midst of financial crisis, I do not see anyone in our Federal government talking about eliminating 'optional' departments.

I raise this point because I question whether the growth of governmental involvement in building has really led to any public benefit, including 'safety.' Try this: make a list of the greatest construction achievements- then compare the rules they had to follow to today's list. Yet, somehow, those tall buildings and bridges still manage to function. Look at the engineering marvels being made in places like Bahrain- where the builders face little, if any, regulation. Even in totalitarian places like China, the government pretty much stands aside once the permission has been granted.

Reno's success in essentially eliminating the entire building department puts a spotlight on what is really important to the government- and your safety isn't on the list.

There are plenty of places out west without any building departments as soon as you get out of the city.
Farmers are pretty much exempt just about everywhere as soon as you get out of the Northeast corridor.
What I see is just what you would expect. Everything form well engineered and built structures to things that have that "3d world" air to them. It would be interesting to actually compare accident and death statistics.

I'll take it this mean you don't either like or understand my responses to you Reno, i'll invite you to be specific then







One could read Mien Kampf and consider the author a genius as well, possibly even being totally unaware of the darker motivations the author had




The floudering fathers (no, that's not a typo) fought what they considered oppression, forwarded a historic document on par with the Magna Carta inclusive of all men being created equal, yet owned slaves. Add to this they were moslty aristo's with more to loose to then imperalist England than the average joe of the day, and their alturistic nature people seem so fond of becomes rather tarnished






Very true in that big gov always justifies itself , plays the blame game , and can many times operate with less than business like proficency
In fact, there's a good argument in that they seem to be working on eliminating us before themselves. In the grander scope, what you seem to be alluding to is a macroeconomic model condusive to a gainful lifestyle /business existence in conjunction with government. I think i've stated my case in said respect, it's just a matter of what labels or allegiances one would subscribe to




Some sort of study relevant to governmental protectants relevant to morbidity and mortality over a period of time shouldn't be much of an ordeal to google up Reno, and i'm sure America would loose out placing it side by side with totaltarian regimes who's worker ants go missing by the thousands annually. That said it's essentially discriptive of a free market, pristine lazzie fare unrestrained capitalism. It sounds mighty funky to paint commie countries like China with such descriptions, but in the biz sense they provide grand perspective ,and just watch the bubble they're assuming grow ungainly due to it all. Imho, we've evoloved past the pinkerton's, past the guilded age and robber barons, to be a century ahead of where they are today, we are at our best subscribing to balance

Have we come full circle with it all? Well, i did get the boot here ranting about the safety nazis ,didn't i? Hypocritical that i should do so, after taking so many hundreds of seniors out of the sanctity of their own homes against their will to the fossile home because we deemed them a threat to themselves.

Oh well, did i tell you i look great in uniform?

Another pet peeve of mine....

Poor writing skills on the app forms!!!

And, lack of required description of work!!

Comments??

I would like to comment on the inspection process, first we need to understand why we have permits and inspections, insurance underwriters require cities and towns to enforce inspections so the cities can maintain their insurance ratings ( a good rating saves every on their insurance costs) we keep hearing big goverment requiring permits and inspections, no truth to that, all your government does is, operate a department to issue permits and arrange inspections, and do this on break even budget, not to create income, but operate the building inspection process, so if you have problem with codes or enforcement, don't complain about big brother, your rights, take your complaints to the insurance underwriters, and their stock and mutual companies that insure all our business and personal insurance property coverages.

My hope is everyone in the construction industry tries to learn more about it inspection process and how it benefits us all

LK:

Thank you!

Welcome back!!!

John,


Sorry I didn't jump in earlier, been very busy lately. As for poor writing skills. As I e-mailed you. The one EC wrote down on his permit and I quote! "Let Harold fill it, I don't know what to put down."

It seems that he was moving electrical equipment for a pool, so when I called him up I had to ask him just what he was doing. The conversation went something like this.

Me: "Jim, what exactly are you doing with this pool."
him: "Moving equipment"
Me: "Did you move the motor?"
Him" Yes"
Me: "Did you move the pool heater?"
Him: "Yes"
Me: " What else did you move?"
Him: "That's all"
Me: "Why didn't you just write that down on your permit?"
Him: "I didn't know what to write."
Me: "You do now."

You got to love it.

Harold:

At least he gave you a note! 'Blank' techs (items/work description) show up once or twice a week. The occasionsl tech with only the ECs name, address, lic. # and signature/seal....and nothing else. Let that fall into the wrong hands.

Lately, the legibility of the writing is terrible! Job descriptions like 'as per prints', not 1 thing listed. Or the best is 'whatever is required by code'. Now these are not 'newbies', it's a mix of all. Then someone cries as to why it takes so long to process a permit package.

all my AHJ's have e-mail......

~S~

~s~:
Yes, I have email also.

IF the sparkies write their email address on the app package, I prefer to email comments. It's fast, convenient, and saves postage delays and cost.

That said, plans from design professionals have to be signed and sealed, and as of now, electronic (PDF attachments) are not acceptable by State law.

PS: I may ask you for details on the trapeeze! Rod, clamps, strut size, etc.

Stay safe

agreed it just saves time, and explains a lot more...



all they really seem to want is an engineer involved here, they (the state) really don't review 'plans' i might submit

they would simply claim 'i should know what i'm doing' , call for an inspection when you're done.

but there's so many grey area's that are up to AHJ interpetation i'm uncomfortable with that, so i just have these open invites with them, and e-mail the latest for their purusal


rod clamps are rated for 500lbs static, rod is 3/8"x16, clamps are the two piece w/bolt, strut is beeline fat variety (i think it's 1 5/8") the whole deal calculates out to about 200lb's a ft, or 2000 lb's in ten feet

i'm worried about the roof, snow load, etc...


sincerely trying, old habits die hard....

~S~

~s~:

Based on the detail submitted in the above response, your plan and electrical permit are approved for issuance.

Please submit the total fee of $1645.00 via check or money order. Cash or plastic is not accepted. Permit counter hours are 8:00 to 4:30PM.

Have a good day.

Oh, yea ... be sure to bring quarters for the parking meter. The areas around government buildings have the only parking meters in town, and rates are higher the closer you are to "mandatory" places like the courts.

Just a little nudge from your locked-in civil servants, to remind you that you're going to come here- unlike the poor stiffs at the shopping mall, who actually have to WANT you to come.

As for our 'no cash' policy .... when we printed 'good for all debts' on it, we were only joking.

Reno:

Yes, there may be some munis that have metered parking, the ones I am familiar with around here have ample parking for free. Large cities (ie: Newark, Jersey City) have meter and parking lot only.

A side note: NJ beaches (95%+) require beach bages for a fee to get on the beach. Most beach towns have parking meters or kiosk units. One town I'm close to gets $1.50/hr at the kiosk.

As to 'no cash'...I agree with you on 'all debts, public and private' but..I only work here, I do not write the rules!!

I too have e-mail and in all my towns, the parking is free near the town hall. Except that 1 town hall has a very small lot and you have to come in early to get the space.

Just to clear up my last post, I have e-mail in my large town only. Not in all towns, but I have office hours in each town.

Virtually no free parking here but there are several parking garages and they do hove metered spots on the street. It is still a crap shoot how long you will be at the building department. "Good news" generally takes longer.
There are several different things you need and they are not all at the same place. There is a lot of walking involved.
"Rejection" is usually pretty fast. (nope you are missing "X", come back when this is complete.)

The production builders use a permit service and they have a separate desk because they will show up with a stack of applications. These are usually closer to being right the first time because the permit service knows what works and what doesn't.
You might still get it kicked back in plan review but it does get past the intake desk faster.

Most of the time these are mastered plans so they sail through. There are so many optional details that it is hard to figure out what they are really building from the master. The electrical plan is just a guideline. Point to point, I doubt there are many houses wired the same, even off the same master. Where my wife built, they gave the customer a lot of flexibility in placing outlets so you ended up having to put in extras just to meet 210.52. They also had a lot of options for additional outlets (garage fridge/freezer, additional attic lighting, additional outside outlets etc). Each trade would get a marked up master for each house that they actually built off of and outlet placement, switches, door swings, floor covering etc, was painted on the floor during the post framing customer walk through.

wow, i think i'm about $200 -$300 in fees so far....
~S~

austerity best explained>

The hidden hand of the market will never work without a hidden fist.
Thomas Friedman

~s~:
I bet ya don't have to pay for parking at your town hall!

The $$$ I put in my post was just numbers from the sky, an example for display purposes only.

Our friendly office staff call the 'responsible person' when the package is ready, and give them the cost. The comment regarding check or money order only, no cash, plastic, debit, etc., is also stated within that call. Do people show up with Benjamin and his friends? Sure do! We mention there is a bank & post office out on Route 27!

well, there's only parking for 4-5 cars.....but it beats the town next door, (Baltimore) , which is a selectman's (who drew the short straw)basement



oh? you had me, i thought it paid for plan review there (my kingdom for plan review yanno)


One would think handing cash to state officials a tad over the 'situational ethics' line , which it would be here

~S~

~s~:

No cash in the office = No possible problems!

There are some Building Depts here in NJ that are in the basements, & a few are in 'double wides' out in the lot.

Heck, I was in one Twp back in the haydays were the inspectors shared desks & worked split shifts. Now, with the housing bubble burst, that situation does not exist anymore.

I think you can pay for a permit here with cash but that will require a hike over to the county clerk cashier and a hike back with the receipt (about 4 blocks each way). You still have to do that with the Notice of Commencement (registering the job for potential liens) but that is in the same office as the clerk desk where the paper is filed but it would be a separate trip since you can't do the NOC without a permit number.

It is all of this that creates the business of permit runners.
They do it all a batch at a time.

Just, for a moment, consider the comments to this thread in light of what happens when you go to purchase anything else.

Even your local mini-mart faces economic pressure to let folks use their debit cards for small sales- even though the hidden transaction fees will eat up all the profit for the storekeeper. Nor are folks going to hunt long for a parking space, or tolerate much of a wait in line. For the merchant, it's all about the bottom line.

It's almost a law of the universe that pleasant experiences bring back customers, and happy customers make for a prosperous business.

NOW ... compare that to the practices of anyone that has a monopoly, and the use of their product is mandatory. Whether by law (traffic tickets) or practical reality (the electric or phone company). Long waits, unhappy customers, all manner of impediments for the customer. After all, it's not like your business can go elsewhere.

Let's look at that mini-mart again. Can you imagine the effect a 'no cash' or 'exact change' policy would have on his business? As much as the owner would LOVE to eliminate the burden of maintaining a cash drawer, the daily trip to the bank, and the worries about errors, thefts, and robberies .... the mini-mart still takes cash.

Snafus? Consider the differences in the way private concerns handle customer issues to the way government does. Or, such mundane things as business hours, business location, etc. It appears that the deck is stacked, from the start, against there being a happy relationship.

One would think the term too big to fail might hold some relevance to libertopians Reno

~S~

Libertarians would say "too big to fail" is a politically inspired concept that allows unsustainable enterprises to survive long after they should have been allowed to fail with the cost landing on the backs of our children.

and then blame them for being slackers.....

~S~

Reno:

We (Building Dept) have suggested and requested the implimentation of accepting 'plastic' for fee payments, and that's as far as it has gotten. I know first hand when I have someone at the counter for pickup, and they pull out the roll of bills. There's about a 50/50 mix of upset folks vs. 'oh, I forgot what the girl told me'

Yes, the proliferation of electronic payment is down to the convenience stores, and coming soon is payment by smart phone. What irks me is the guy that has a cup of coffee, uses his debit card, wants cash back, has insufficient funds, re-does it with a second card, fails, and by then there's a line of fuming people, one of which offers to pay for his coffee just to get the heck out.

BTW, without going off topic, are your gas stations charging 'cash' price & 'credit' prices with 6-10 cents differential?? They say it's to offset the bank fees.

The bank fee on a credit card is usually 2% if you use the electronic clearing system. That would be about 7.5 cents a gallon at $3.75

Debit cards are usually cheaper. I think the new law makes it a cap of 22 cents.

A common example here is REgular...Cash $3.55 Credit $3.65

'Debit' gets you the 'Credit' price. And, yes, we are still 'no self service'

The idea of having different prices for different types of transactions is a discussion without a 'right' answer, and I've seen the balance go both ways. Right now, the most common ploy is to have a minimum sale for a card transaction- though such policies are said to be a violation of the merchants' agreement with the card company.

Changes in the ways banks operate have really put the kibosh on the use of checks. It appears that the financial industry would just as soon see checks go away.

Likewise, various IRS policies have created a bias against cash transactions. As I have commented in the "safety" forum, it seems to be all about 'documentation.'

The simple fact is that each type of transaction has its' expenses ... and those expenses have to be paid.

For the ordinary citizen, market forces work to answer the question. For those insulated from the market, decisions are made based upon something else; the market - meaning the customers' desires- is simply not relevant. That's why government can't help but act the way they do.

Getting back on topic .... perhaps we need to explore ways to introduce market forces to the whole code / permit / inspection issue. I question whether the current arrangement has achieved its' intents- and whether tightening the noose would help.

Missouri has been able to introduce some 'market accountability' to its' DMV operations, with some success. Perhaps they have some lessons we can build upon. Indeed, Missouri has (perhaps accidentally) also introduced a very minor amount of 'competition' in the issuing of Masters' licensing. I will be interesting to see how that turns out.

Banks have a way of dealing with the check problem. They are giving the merchant a scanner that either scans the whole check or just reads the MICR line. They process it right then and hand you the check back.
The first place I saw this was a brick yard. Now they are popping up all over. It is essentially what they do at the grocery store when they scan your check but they keep it.
You are not beating that one to the bank!

John,

In 2 of my towns, I have a desk and a phone and a computer. In 2 of my towns I don't even have a desk, I stand around in the office and talk with the building inspector and secretaries and meet the public if they have any questions.

afci version #4 just around the corner then?

~S~

Greg,


Let's see, no more do you have to carry cash, and maybe not checks, but little cards with "Credits". HHMM! That sounds a little bit like George Orwell's 1984 doesn't it?

There are a lot of things George seemed to get right.

How many cameras do you think you are seen by in the average day?

As harold is 'out in the countryside of NJ', I offer the first guess of 17 cameras between his four towns!

I wouldn't count on that. There are a couple in every "shop and rob", grocery stores, home stores and banks all have plenty.
Have the revenue cameras at stop lights penetrated New Jersey yet? I think Tony Soprano runs those.

Greg:

Yes, the red light cameras are here and generating $$$.

The town I live in had $750,000 +/- last year.

BTW, I did not think about the convenience stores! I was thinking 'big brother' cameras

I got a note saying we should get back on topic. Probably a good idea.

Ditto

Yes, sorry for straying!

BTW, we have another permit related thread going!

Back to the original topic, and see if we get any more input.

Any comments on the time it takes from you dropping a permit app and the issuance of the permit?

Any comments on the form, or forms that you have to fill out?

Anybody use a 'Permit Expeditor'?

a what?

~S~

A 'Permit Exbititor' is a guy who walks the paperwork through the process and stands at each guy's desk staring at him to make sure that he doesn't set it on his 'to-do- pile to get coffee or go to the bathroom.
They were all the rage in Chicago a few years ago, but they were so creepy and annoying that I heard that every one of them had been escorted out of the building by the police at one time or another.
They still exist here, but they're pretty useless. If there is a question on the forms they will call you and tell you what needs fixing (the same as the City will) and are no help whatsoever in getting anything resolved.
The truth around here was that your Permit would ordinarily take 2 months to get through channels; but if you hired one of these guys it only took 8 weeks.

Ghost:

Expeditors here are about the same, except they only get as far as the counter! A few don't even come into the office, they fed-ex or courier the package in.

We have been running around 20 business days to get paper thru the office. Thats thru the four subcodes, Elec, Plumb, Fire & Building. Zoning and Engineering processing has to be approved before we get the package.

Now, IF the expeditors would 'check' the package for all the required paper BEFORE they do the drop...that would be an improvement!!

Greg,


At least a dozen or more. Now up here ( NJ) there is a fight in a local paper about tracking you via your cell phone or your GPS in your car. Big Bro always knows where you are!

The permit services here are like John's. They don't get past the counter but there are a number of counters you have to stand in front of if you are getting all the permits for a building so it is enough to justify a business. They also know all the rules so they are sure you have everything they need in the package before they go downtown.
These days when money is tight and people are not that busy I bet more GCs run their own permits.
The trade permits for replacements and repairs can all be done with the automated system.

My county seems to be operating under the theory that they will make it easy enough to get a permit so people don't really have a good excuse not to.

.......a 'permit exhibitor'...... man i've been out in the puckerbrush too long.........~S~

El Bumpo....

Anyone else??

BTW, NJ Directive issued today regarding all work related to damage from the Hurricane 'Irene', that ALL fees, both municipal and state are waived. Permits are required. Work may commence immediatley, with notification to the local construction dept. Permit documents must be submitted within 3 business days.

Inspections of 'Irene' related work shall be performed with priority, using a 'courtesy' basis for a permit number on inspection records. (Paperwork nightmare in the making)

Utility cut-in-cards will also be issued using 'courtesy' in lieu of permit number.

Not part of the above, but via email, State DCA is in need of Electrical Subcode Officials (AHJs) and Electrical Inspectors (NJ DCA Lic) to work any available time within the "Irene' damage area towns. Daytime, nights, weekends. (An oppertunity for those who were laid off recently??)

I think they have a pretty good sense of humor about permits after a storm here. Certainly anything fixed without an insurance claim will usually also be unpermitted and uninspected.

John,

I thought the waiving of fees had to come from the local gov, you know committee people and such? I didn't see the directive yet. I was knocked out of power my self for several days.

John,

I had a generator, 30 amp at 240 volt, and I tested it on Friday last week. However wouldn't you know it. It crapped out on me on Sun. during the height of the storm! Lucky a friend of mine lent me a generator for a few days.

Harold:

It was a state issued document that we received. I'm out of the office until Tuesday, so I can't give you any more particulars till then.

To continue the rant.....

Anybody here hand permit applications to 'others' to fill them out??

Seems to be a new (or revived) issue here.

Comments??

well....i've handed the filled out ones to 'others' that can actually spell .....~S~

Permit Applications are not handed to me for Data Entry purposes, Instead I fill out the forms as part of the Tasks involved with obtaining Permits (typically as part of the Plans Examination process).

Prior to the Application forms being available On-Line, I would pickup several "Blanks" from the DBS Offices, and pre-fill the information prior to leaving.

Now the form(s) may be filled in via the PC, which is so much nicer looking!
If the Application is only a PDF "Printable Version" (no fillable fields), I create Form Fields on the Document, save the file for future use, fill-out a copy for the current Job, then Print out Two copies (one for Archives).

Along with the Permit Application, the submittal package for the DBS includes Cutsheets, Title 24, Part 6 "Binder Copies", relevant Specification Sheets, and a recent Printout of the Contractor's Information from the CSLB Website (Calif. State License Bureau).
This Printout shows License Status (Expiry Date & Class), along with Work Comp Policy status and Number.

When submitting to Plan Check, the Permit items are brought along for references. Once the Plans are stamped "Approved", the Permit Items get processed into an active Permit...

BTW, a Blank Check, or Checks is/are issued to me for payments to the DBS, and sometimes for the outsourced plancheck firm.
I carry Authorizing Agent Documents with me, but not too many Counter Staff Persons ever request to verify if I am Authorized to act in behalf of the Company.

-- Scott

Scott:
Thanks for the above.

What I'm alluding to in my last inquiry is:

Does anybody 'hand over' a signed/sealed (if required in your area) permit app without the job info or items being listed?

Like to builders, HVAC guys, plumbers ???

Coincidentally , my AHJ was explaining an 'open permit' to me today HotOne.

It's for one of those jobs that never really get done, but need checks along the way. Case in point is an old 9 unit apt/commercial building in town we've systematically weeded out the K&T on.

Because we really never know just how much we're going to do, until we start investigating, we simply have a running list that we 'check in' with our AHJ , who comes out when he deems it necessary

~S~

My little "Village" is going through serious growing pains. They just incorporated a year or so ago and immediately decided they wanted to own all of the zoning and permitting with nobody around who actually understood it. They are on the verge of being sued by the contractors because the permitting process is so screwed up. They also hired a full time "code enforcement" guy (tall grass and junk in the yard stuff) before they realized that virtually every residential street in the village is privately owned and people are just saying "get out" to him. He can't get through the gates of a gated community and the other old communities never had their streets accepted by the county. That means he spends his days riding around on the half dozen state roads or hassling people in the 3 small communities with county roads. The people in those 3 communities want to secede from the village and go back to unincorporated Lee County where the grown ups run the government.

Personally no.

There are reasons that I asked this question. There have been instances where an app comes into the office and there are questions regarding job scope vs. plans submitted.

Some of the responses or conversations with the ECs that signed/sealed the app, leave more questions than any expected response.

"I was never there"!!??
"What job??"
"Who's the builder"?
"Where is that"?
"silence"!!

Even more interesting is going for the rough inspection, and finding out that there's only the GCs people there, and they have no clue who is the EC!

Do you ever have cases where the EC was just listed on the permit but do not actually have the job? I was thinking about remodels or something like a water heater/HVAC replacement.

Greg:
Where I think you are heading are guys we refer to as "paper hangers". Yes, it's a known way that some guys generate $$$ just for the paper. But, it is not an easy issue to prove to the Board of Examiners, and for the few who went down that road, it's a lot of work to address this issue. Illegal?? IMHO, damn right!!.

Amazingly, I come upon a permit app with the Lic. EC that has a single digit license number. The signature is real, the seal is OK. I'm like wow!! Go to the site for a rough; SFD renov and addition, job is a mess. Call the phone #, leave a message; left a red tag at site. 2-3 days pass, I get a voice mail in my office , with a contact number. Excuse for mess was 'job was not ready for inspection, GC must have called to schedule.

Long story short, Many years back I worked for this guy. He was up in years back then. NJ lic. # are now in the 18,000 range. The guy I spoke to had no clue who "xxxxx" was, even though his signature is very readable, nor did he know where "xxxx" was. Funnier, "xxxx" is a white guy, and the guy on the job was African American.

"xxxx" used to hang out down with the rest of the NJ Snow Birds, in your home state, and probably is still there.

As usual, i'm in a pickle yet again......We roughed a small main street commercial store front a while back , had a rough inspection, addressed the small requests per AHJ, and never got called back for the trim out

Passing thru, we stopped in to find a thriving deli/cafe' yesterday

I took pix, and emailed the AHJ , asking if another permit was pulled for the finish, and if not ,how it assumed occupancy?

I've no response from him so far......what should i do? I don't wish to be liable for anyone else's work

~S~

~s~
Usual procedure I use for a situation like yours is to have the EC who has/had the permit & 'rough' to provide a letter stating the scope of the work he did. Letter is required to be signed & sealed. Letter goes into the jobsite files.

IF a CO was issued, it gets a little sticky. On your word, I would inquire with the GC/Responsible person, or the business owner as to who did the trim-out. Most times it goes 'easy'; my second option is a Notice of Violation with a Order of Penalty, that's the 'hard' way. Penalty ($$) is delayed by a few days IF people are cooperative.

A Change of Contractor to the 'trim' guy closes the issue. Hopefully the trim guy has the required license and insurance.

The letter from you is acceptable in the eyes of the State DCA, and gets you off the hook. Sometimes, my end of these type of issues can drag out for quite a while.

My thing; we all worked hard to obtain our licenses, and I look out for 'us', as best I can within the regs.

Duly noted, understood, and thx HotOne

I'm particularly fond of your last line, because w/o any of you, there's less if not none of us>>>>



~S~

~s~
Thank you for the compliment!! A lot of guys here agree with you.

Anybody have any additional comments??

There was post on a forum (not ECN) where the EC added some jumpers during the rough known only to him that caused "issues" if someone else did the trim or did not pay. They would have to pay up in order to have the EC fix the problem, not sure that is a great idea, but if someone had been burned in the past like the mason who built a fireplace for a customer & made a agreement that they would not use it until they did pay, later gets a call that the FP is smoking & reminds them of the deal, gets his money & comes over with a bag of rocks attached to a rope to drop down & shatter a piece of glass in the chimney.

I've a few jobs that never seem to end. In particular, a K&T era large farmhouse cut up into 12 units, 9 professional offices and 3 resi apt's

I've a file of permits as thick as a phone book on this property alone.

So one of the newer AHJ's who came along recently produced what he calls a 'blanket permit' , which is simply a regular permit with an explanatory attachment inclusive of dates and work details.

It's a great instrument, especially considering i usually can't recall what was for lunch an hour after i ate it


~S~

~s~:
Sounds like that was one heck of a 'farmhouse'!!

Structures like that can generate a lot of paper here also; either by 'updates' to the base permit, or a separate permit for each tenant space. There are many 'variables' as to which path the paper takes.

The 'variables' include, Zoning, type of structure, ownership, rentals, condos, etc, and perhaps the 'mood' of the office staff.

The closest thing that I have available is a 'Annual Permit' allowed by the UCC. However, I must say that I have not used one, not seen one, or have anyone request one. The format, and paperwork involved, record keeping, etc.,for both the facility and the AHJ is involved. (This is comm/industrial facility only)

Well it gets even better HotOne, the state of Vermont (in it's infinite wisdom) shuffles the AHJ deck to have my normal AHJ assume a new area , and foist all this on the new guy

A green AHJ at that, good guy and all....,but i'm moved to offer him a flak jacket and flea collar to inspect 1/2 of the jobs i've open permits on

~S~

~s~

I have to draw the line on the flea collar!!

Lol, the state has a term, 'hostile entity' , you know these sorts that won't let them in , usually because they've something to hide.....which results in more open permit limbo....

i guess i really should rethink this 'slum sparky' gig

~S~

~s~

I never took you for a 'slum sparky'.

I like the 'hostile entity' thing. I had a guy today say I was 'confrontational' when I walked into his mess.

Stay safe

It happens

I had a call where some 'soon to be evicted' folks complained to every state agency possible, our 'lectrical division being one. So my AHJ writes up what is no more than standard fare w/deadlines.... i waltz into a lot of bad news (grow rooms, etc) , and call my AHJ to ask if it can all wait until they're out.

Next thing we know, we're both on the court docket

~S~

On the docket as what? Defendants?

Yes Greg,
Windham Vt county court docket, as 'ammo' for the deadbeat defendants to use both myself and my ahj against the plantiff landlord.

Fortunately, a writ of possession was granted the landlord before it came to fruition

I guess someone of legal authority realized said deadbeats were playing both ends to their advantage ,and shut them off

As for my ahj and i, we're rather relieved , both of us try and do our jobs the best we can, and would rather avoid any litigant ado

~S~

Yet that is a mere 'bump' in the road for me.
How's not getting a final, after a year of asking for it?
And, on the biggest job in my state at the time....

My AHJ quit over it

~S~

~s~
FWIW, I have a SFD that has been a real, real PITA for the last 2+years. Basically a run down hoarders structure. Many complaints re: rodents (rats) and ferrel cats, and the stench that goes with a place like that. Not being used to 'occupy', but bacically 'kept' for sentimental reasons by the owner.

Health Dept. issues and numerous Citations, Summons (Muni Court) Lien on property for exterminator services, grounds cleanup, etc.

Declared it Unsafe, posted and processed all the paperwork. She submitted request to go to the Board of Appeals. Postponed a few times, and finally showed. Board heard her plea, ruled for either demo or complete repairs/renov.

She requested 'next step', and was advised by Board to file with Superior Court and hire an attorney. More delays.

Next, Superior Court allows 6 months to make all required clean-up, both inside and exterior, all repair work, etc.
Time passes, she had vinyl siding installed, and a roof replacement, and cleared out a 'path' thru the first floor. The walls and floor are covered in mold, and it's still uninhabitable for humans.

Plus, when the siding was done, the old service & meter vanished and now she is trying to get an EC to install a new service. She came into the office with 1 'estimate' for a service and tried to con the clerks into accepting that as a the electrical service is restored!! Not happening.

We will continue this someday soon......

I once got a late night service call for a partial power outage at a house nearby. When I got to the scene the Police were there too.

It turns out that Deadbeat tenants lived in the converted Garage (where the panel was) and were turning off Breakers that served the Landlord's part of the House. The Police were there to escort me in so I could turn the Breakers back on.

Easiest Service Call Ever!!

Myself, i've been caught in the 'middle' far too many times.

As an EC trying to keep a roof overhead, litigation avenue always is a loosing proposition

The problem is, we always seem to be a target

~S~

~s~
I agree with you 100% on the loosing proposition and time wasted.
For the EC, it's a loss of $$ (time)
For the AHJs it's a loss of time, and if you are in a busy locale, it affects the ECs ($ on inspection pass), the HOs, the builders, and other trades IF a rough is delayed.

I have a time waster on the 16th of this month, probably will kill all or most of the day.

Stay safe!

I guess I really lived a sheltered life in my state job. We didn't have any drama like that.

I used to think the backwoods of Vermont is about as sheltered as one can get Greg

But the truth of it is, human nature doesn't change much because of seclusion.

I've see big $$$ come around, our states politicians stump for it, patting themselves on the back taking credit

along with all the bureaucracies we pay for blatantly ignoring their jobs , because they're told to 'back off'

in fact, i've even had formal complaints against my own work ignored, then gone over heads with it

I can remember closing the door on the head inspectors office, to quietly inform him "If I go down, you'll go down with me"

all 'drama' i did not need , but probably exists a LOT more than we'd care to admit in our system

~S~

(RANT)

How many times have you had the Customer try to get the Final from the AHJ without paying the Contractor?

I don't miss that at all...

Where I was the state was the customer and state employees usually did the work if it wasn't inmates. When we did have contractors, they were usually pretty easy to deal with. I may not have had a lot of juice with the state employees but I could hold up a contractor's check.

Greg,

Where I am there are private agencies that are approved to do inspections. Some have a storefront where the Homeowner (or Customer) could, (and has) gone in to ask for their final certificate trying to stiff the EC out of their final payment.

Luckily the Inspectors I've dealt with were aware of what was going on and would only give Certificates to me. Sometimes that would be my only leverage to get full payment.

I guess I did live a sheltered life, no homeowners

I was standing right by my ahj one day ,when his phone rang w/'customer' insisting the job done, spark fired.

he saw right through it

~S~

On that note, i have walked off jobs that won't pay.

The next reasonable course of action is to contact the proper departments, which 'final out' work to date.

The problem w/that is, they can not hold up the job w/specifics if they've already granted them a pass.

This i learned the hard way as an EC ......

If some customer needs a litigant flogging , an EC wants an >open< permit to wave about in court

~S~

Drama has a lot of different methods tha all are what most, if not all of us wish would go away. But, alas it never will.

It takes many routes, has many forms, and unfortunatley we have to deal with it the best we can on a regular, perhaps daily basis. Be it the office staff having bad days, either being aggravated by an irate phone call, a person at the counter, etc.

Then, you have the political issues, the "friends", and all the other cronies who impose on a normal day. Basically looking for inspections that are not scheduled due to oversite on their parts.

Then you have the problem issues; complaints that must be checked, non-permitted work in progress, demo jobs turned bad, hacks, unlicensed trunk slammers, etc. Add in the response to the Fire Dept,, Fire Marshall, and of course the vehicle vs. structure accidents.

I could go on.....

A bit off topic from another forum. www.notalwaysright.com

But one way to handle a ungrateful cusstomer.

(I’m a female on-call locksmith. It is 3:00 am, in -16-degree weather. I go to the car that the person has been locked out of. I make them sign the paperwork, and I pop the lock in under five minutes.)

Customer: “Wait! Why should I pay $150 for something that only took you two seconds?!”

Me: “Because you couldn’t do it yourself.”

Customer: “You b****! I’m not paying this! I’m going to dispute the charges!”

Me: “Well, in that case…”

(I take the keys and throw them back into the car, lock the door, and slam it shut.)

Me: “Have a good night.”

Customer: “You can’t do that!”

Me: “You just said you were going to reverse the charges, so I’m reversing the job.”

(I got chewed out so hard for that, but it was worth it.)

Good one Norcal

reminds me of calling into the poco for a smart meter disco, which they do via their main office

last time i even asked if they wanted any ID they said no....

man, the >evil< thoughts i had.....

~S~

HotLine1

I'll just throw in that I really hate anything that allows concrete work to begin before the building permit is issued. They often have a "No Other Trade On Site" provision. The presence of my marked truck is enough to trigger a violation process and a "notice of liability to forfeiture." In one county in Virginia; the State has a MIN/Max code; they got so aggressive that I filed a request for immediate appeal based on individual prejudice. Then the City Attorney was willing to talk to me. You know that requirement for providing for the use of the Concrete Encased Electrode? Has anyone worked with a concrete contractor that does not have to be directed to turn a piece of rebar up just inside the basement wall at the actual location of the Service Equipment? Or one that knows that the AHJ in some jurisdictions require a rebar inspection prior to pouring any concrete, Or that on a commercial building the electrical inspector has to sign off on any Grounding Requirement prior to concealing any connection? They sure get mad when the electrical inspector orders the installation of additional tie wires at any untied crossing point. Well once I explained that the inspector could and would fail my work because of work I was not permitted to examine prior to concealment he directly ordered the Chief Electrical Inspector to make immediate provision for coordination or to shift all aspects of concrete work to the building inspector to avoid a valid defense of Entrapment for the notice of Apparent Liability of Forfeiture. Virginia has some sort of process for decertifying an inspector who looses multiple appeals of their orders. I have no idea how or if it actually works but it is a step in the right direction and I wish that Maryland; were I did the vast majority of my work as a Master; would adopt a Min/Max Code and State regulation of inspectors. The electrician should not be the only one in that relationship who is held to a performance standard for their work!

--
Tom Horne

Tom:
First, Welcome to ECN!!

Now, the 'rant' you reference is from a member here who was/is known to rant, stir the pot, flame, etc., and has not posted here in some time.

I have a very high tolerance for all of that, and as a moderator on this site, I decided to 'let it roll', and see if it expanded into anything that deserves deletion or ??

To address your content, up here in NJ, our Building Inspectors are responsible for the inspection of the rebar/ufer ground terminations when they perform the footing inspection(s). It is not the responsibility of the Electrical Inspector; this is defined within the NJ Uniform Construction Code, statewide, not local.

Common practice here is NOT to stub up rebar, but to connect a #4 Cu with a listed clamp, and leave the #4 tail above grade on the interior area of the structure. IF the location is not by the service, it is extended with irreversible means as necessary. It works.

Partial releases are mainly for large comm jobs, and rarely for rest SFD.

BTW, if you surf thru the threads, and come upon comments from the ranter, don't let it get to you. The other Mods, and myself run thru the posts and delete what does not meet the forum rules.

Take care, and stay d=safe.

renosteinke

We are right back to the fire attack example that I have used before. What gives me and the firefighters I work with the right to break down your door, cut a sheet of plywood sized hole in your roof, break every window in your house, and pour hundreds of gallons per minute of water from each of several hose lines all over everything you own in the world? Surely everyone can see that is not done for the occupants nor the owners benefit.

Firefighters do internal attacks because it is the most effective way to keep the fire from growing beyond the capability of the available suppression resources to control. If we happen to make a "Good Stop" and save some of your home and possessions that is just a happy side effect of what the law obliges us to put first in every suppression effort we make. If we hold it to a "Room and Contents" we are justly proud of ourselves and you just received one hell of a gift from the government entity that operates that fire service.

We exist to prevent your misfortune or failure of responsibility from harming; what we call side A1, B1, & C1; all of your neighbors homes and their other property. Our right to operate in the way we do is an exercise of the Police Power of the State. The State, and it's local governments have no obligation to protect you from Your own misfortune or failure of due diligence. If the State and it's officers tried to do that they would lay themselves open to the possibility of successful legal attack because they would no longer be carrying out the common law purposes of a government. Some local governments become mutual benefit corporations under law by taking on providing benefits to individual members of the community. Until the community voluntarily takes on such burdens they have no obligation under law to provide them and can cease doing so at any time. Undertaking such services makes the local government take on a corporate roll that has nothing to do with the powers of a local government or even a State government. In carrying out the exercise of the Police Powers of the State; Local Government enjoys a very high level of immunity from any civil or tort legal action against them. That is based on 2 principals. The first is that it is a legal absurdity to sue your State Government because they stand in place of the sovereign. Their actions are cloaked with the immunity of the sovereign, which is generally spoken of as Sovereign Immunity. The exercise of Police Power is to carry out a duty that a government has to all of it's citizens. That general duty does not translate into a duty to any individual. The legal axiom by which that is expressed is that "A duty to all is a duty to none."

These principals are also what gives the local government the power to carry out zoning and building code enforcement... Sooner or later each of us is going to die because life is a terminal condition. Someone other than yourself will then come to own your house and the property it stands on. The State does have a general duty to protect that as yet unknown person from whatever actions you may have taken that was not wise or even prudent. It is also a State duty to protect the population of a community from the inevitable results of having too much unshaded heat storing surfaces in the form of parking lots. The zoning requirement for storm water storage and slow release at no greater rate than natural ground cover would have released it into the drainage; In this use the drainage refers to all of the ground that collects water and eventually releases that water into a waterway of some kind; is to prevent the otherwise inevitable flash flooding which is inevitably fatal to some citizen or several citizens. [Those of us who have worked in Fire and Rescue Services have a saying that when we are bored the public is having a good day.]

So yes, the body politic has a right and indeed a duty to protect your fellow citizens from the harmful effects of your actions.

--
Tom Horne

The Ufer is also part of our footer inspections. They do allow the turned up rebar inside a CMU core and it is marked so it won't get poured solid like the other doweled cells. The AHJs do prefer the #4 copper but it was turning up missing when they set the service so often that they hold their nose and allow the rebar. I have heard some do want that cell packed solid with concrete after the #4 is attached to meet the "concrete encased" requirement. Others go the other way and want the acorn to remain accessible. (Blank cover over the whole)
The stucco guy will usually be the one who packs the hole when he is doing the outside finish, generally after the panel is set for temporary service.

I complained to my AHJ that all the 'crete guys think i'm some wingnut, his reply was that they had all decided to make contact with said trade . I'd say that was the 'extra mile'.....~S~