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Over on the German board the question arose, whether US breakers for residential use are typically equipped with both a thermal and an electromagnetic tripping device or only either of them.

In all countries that use DIN rail equipment they seem to alyways have both, is that true for the US too?
The statement is true for breakers found in the typical panel.

There are some breakers used in motor control centers that lack the magnetic function.
Thanks a lot! For motor controls, omitting the magnetic trip makes sense since the short-circuit protection can be achieved by a much larger fuse upstream.
Originally Posted by Texas_Ranger
Over on the German board the question arose, whether US breakers for residential use are typically equipped with both a thermal and an electromagnetic tripping device or only either of them.

In all countries that use DIN rail equipment they seem to alyways have both, is that true for the US too?


It the same in France we have both thermal and magatic breakers as well but few of the breakers may not have magatic at all I know I have ran into hydrallic breaker { kinda oddball item }

Merci.
Marc
The hydraulic surely wasn't the typical 10, 16 or 20A household type, was it?

I'm interested in what you'd typically find in an apartment or single family home, as that was what the original discussion was concerned with.
Reno,


Are we talking about FPE breakers? smile
This is a SqD QO GFCI I cut open to see what was inside.I was really interested in the GFCI part but you can see the breaker part too. It looks like it is thermal only.

[Linked Image from gfretwell.com]
Harold, I cannot even attempt to explain the engineering miracle represented by FPE and their breakers.

Imagine ... a breaker that works so well in Canada that it's sold by Schneider Electric (alongside their competing Square D line), yet somehow fails to perform 'south of the border.'

Perhaps us hapless Yanks are simply not sophisticated enough to use these advanced devices laugh
Reno,

I believe the FPE breakers actually worked well with a thermal overload. It was those quick short circuit faults that they didn't seem to see.
Posted By: JBD Re: Are US breakers typically thermal-magnetic? - 05/31/11 04:48 PM
Originally Posted by renosteinke
There are some breakers used in motor control centers that lack the magnetic function.


Nope.

The "typical" breaker in a motor control center is Magnetic only. The thermal function is handled by the motor starter's overload relay.
My thinking on FP breakers is that they had a batch of bad ones. Perhaps they fixed the design or just tightened up the manufacturing process but bad reputations are forever, particularly when politics is involved and the CPSC is a political organization more than a safety organization.
Thank you, JBD, for the correction
Reno:

I was/am under the impression that a 'stab-loc' replacement was being made by a company called 'American Breaker'. Same style, black handle, white numbers. Did I miss something with Schneider?

Originally Posted by HotLine1
Reno:

I was/am under the impression that a 'stab-loc' replacement was being made by a company called 'American Breaker'. Same style, black handle, white numbers. Did I miss something with Schneider?



UBI makes Chinese knockoffs of FPE Stab-Lok, ITE Pushmatic,& Zinsco breakers.
Interesting...I guess if there's any size market....Chinese knockoff factories jump right in!
There is a Chinese firm called "Unique Breaker" or "UBI" making replacements for FPE, Pushmatic, etc. The breakers are ETL, but not UL, listed.
Reno,


I was doing inspection for this big senior citizen complex here in NJ. 10 buildings, 5 floors, 23 apt per floor, etc. The EC had two very large shipments of GFCI receptacles. 1 from China and 1 from south of the border. ( Not sure if Mexico or somewhere down there.)
Anyway, of the two big batches, they started to have failures in all of the GFCI receptacles. When they checked it out, it was one of the 2 batches that were all going bad.
Unfortunately, I don't remember which region they came from. The point being is that all the bad GFI's were from the same geological area.
Harold:
I had a similar situation a while back with GFI the EC purchased 'mail order' from someplace in Gregs state.

They were asian, an TUV and a strange looking UL symbol on the individual package. As they started installing them and doing the testing.....defective units were plentiful. The EC made, IMHO, a smart move by stopping the installation until he got devices from a local source. Two of the GFI devices were sent to UL, and I am not aware of any follow-up.

I can't say I have come accross any of the asian items Reno mentioned. Three large townhouse complexes are in the process of changing out all the FPE panels; about 450 total units.

"Don't remember." Sure, and I can't recall what sort of restaurant uses chopsticks either.

I can't tell businesses how to act wisely. As far as I'm concerned, this whole import mess is a shining opportunity for UL to market the value of its' trademark. They need to assert that they're not just another test lab- and back off from all this ISO 9000, 'international standards' codswhallop. They need to crow "We're NOT just like everyone else."

Why should there be 'international standards?' While the breaker makers might snicker that their cleverly different design prevents others from competing, it also means that they will miss the opportunity to push the other guy aside.

Maybe we place too much on the 'listing and labling' issue. Imagine ... if everyone was actually expected to judge for themselves whether something was adequate? The avarice of the factory would be balanced by their need to convince the customer that their improvements were worth money.

Heck, using standard industrial components, I can turn an ordinary pull can into one heck of a panel - and if Allen-Bradley stops making the breaker I want, I can just snap a Telemechanique onto that same DIN rail!

We have the best engineers in the world - how about we let them actually be engineers?
Quote
I had a similar situation a while back with GFI the EC purchased 'mail order' from someplace in Gregs state.


I am not sure if it is true but the legend is that Miami is ground zero for importing counterfeits of just about anything.
Greg:
My comment was no reflection on the state, but a vague location of the mail order source. It may well be a mail drop for all I know.

Recently, a few containers of counterfeit electrical devices (breakers, devices and extension cords) in Port Elizabeth/Newark caused a photo op for the customs guys.

I wasn't taking it as offensive, just a likely fact. The DEA has made Florida a lot less attractive as a cocaine/pot importation point so the crooks are moving to other things. They seem to turn up a lot of bogus breakers here and we were ground zero for that bad drywall.
Miami/Ft Lauderdale is also the center of the pill mill operations and Medicare fraud. We are so proud frown
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