ECN Forum
Posted By: pooL8 Pigtailing vs. Wiring-thru normal outlets - 02/27/11 01:46 AM
What do you think?

Should pig-tailing be mandatory in all situations?
Or not?
Why?

There is no compelling need. The receptacles are listed for feed through. I'm sure if you look at the various cycles of the ROP you can find more elegant defenses of the current code on this.
Posted By: KJay Re: Pigtailing vs. Wiring-thru normal outlets - 02/27/11 03:18 AM
Nah. The way things are going, it’s probably just matter of time before we have push-in, quick connector blocks for all splices anyway.
The Ideal splice they are talking about is advertising this is perfect for "prefab" boxes. We may be buying boxes directly from China with the devices already installed. Snap them around the framing, push the wires in the splices, shove it all in the box and snap in a "button". Off you go.
The only tool you need is the one you strip the wire with.
Maybe they will come out with one that strips the jacket and both wires in one step on a 12/2 or 14/2 Romex
Scary huh?
Posted By: KJay Re: Pigtailing vs. Wiring-thru normal outlets - 02/27/11 09:32 PM
Yeah Greg, when those things become the norm, all those AFCI’s they made us install may actually come into their own. I think that is what they refer to as anticipating the need. laugh
IMHO, the method installed (pigtail or feed-thru) is the installers option & choice.

Some of us prefer to pigtail at each location, some of us may be looking for that 'little labor & material cost reduction'. As there is no mandatory reason to pigtail in all situations (Yet), the choice is the installer.

Personally, I pigtail.
Posted By: sparky Re: Pigtailing vs. Wiring-thru normal outlets - 02/28/11 05:29 AM
I spent some quality time studying splices and connections as an apprentice.

In fact,i still do, especially if there's something new out there

bottom line, you get a quality connection/termination/circuit/install, if you spend quality time

that's something the nec just can't legislate

~S~
Posted By: Trumpy Re: Pigtailing vs. Wiring-thru normal outlets - 02/28/11 07:27 AM
Could one of you guys please define the term "pig-tailing" for an out of towner?
Sure I will be glad to describe what the pigtail means and I will be using the Euroepan terms what some area we will call takeoff spices or leads

[Linked Image from realtor.com]

This is only a example what typical North Americiané verison look like but for other area it is pretty simauir to this.

Not only we do that on small conductors but we do in large size conductor as well but useing diffrent methold to spice or pigtail larger one as well.

Merci.
Marc
In Austria or Germany I never pigtail unless I encounter a seriously overfilled old-work box, for a very simple reason: box fill doesn't allow me to have any kind of connectors AND a device in a regular dephth 58mm box. If I have some old masterpice with more than 2 cables I don't have the coice, I have to pigtail because modern receptacles won't take more than 2 wires per terminal. I'd say that's a grey area then. In Germany it's worse since the standard box there only seems to be 40mm deep instead of the 50 we have in Austria. Deeper boxes exist, but are very rare, at least in Austria (haven't seen them in shops yet, except one very expensive electronics retailer with mostly German stock). Those 50mm deep boxes are barely enough to take a Schuko receptacles and 6 4" long 2.5mm2 conductors. Getting 9 1.5mm2 conductors + connectors + pigtails + receptacle in there is a major pain.
Posted By: sparky Re: Pigtailing vs. Wiring-thru normal outlets - 02/28/11 12:29 PM
thanks for the pix Frenchy, maybe you could find something on your side of the pond to post for us to compare with here?

Trumpy,it's that takeoff , or pigtail method where the circuit isn't broken by the device, vs. the circuit running through each device>

[img]http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS-Vvn8sSiFMoXlgCHNyk-XcdBXP7lwGxJVJ8yMjpCx3tsYNxJ_8A[/img]
(this would be backstabbing, btw, the screw terminals are not being used here)

[img]http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSePSM2T4ysrJdeHDd_NLhj0oWVAvV5yxBN2nGx6cd1bIqb_kFKmg[/img]
(this is what it is broken down)


Further, we are allowed to do either on 20A circuitry using 15A devices listed for 20A feedthrough

~S~
Posted By: sparky Re: Pigtailing vs. Wiring-thru normal outlets - 02/28/11 12:32 PM
i guess i blew the UBB code....
Marc:
Nice response to Trumpys question.

A great example of a picture being better than 1000 words.

Posted By: sparky Re: Pigtailing vs. Wiring-thru normal outlets - 02/28/11 03:45 PM
okay, more coffee, and.....


[Linked Image from i104.photobucket.com]

[Linked Image from i104.photobucket.com]
Keep in mind that 'backstab' devices are only rated for 14 ga (AWG) solid conductors.

Nice graphics ~s~!!!
Posted By: sparky Re: Pigtailing vs. Wiring-thru normal outlets - 02/28/11 07:23 PM
Keep in mind that 'backstab' devices are only rated for 14 ga (AWG) solid conductors.

yup, what's it been now? 15 years?


Nice graphics ~s~!!!
about time....posting without being properly caffinated is just criminal! grin

~S~
As usual, I am late but I used to feed through unless there were more than 2 conductors per phase on the device. In other words, 2 black or white. I have seen where guys would install 3 or more black wires in the device and then try to push that receptacle back into the box.

That was tough to do IMHO, That would be the big reason to "pigtail" the device. It is easier to push the 2 wires than 6 or 8 wires.
I find it interesting that absolutely no one has claimed a fondness for the original manner of wiring receptacles.

Remember when the sparky simply removed a section of insulation from a wire that passed uncut through the box, then wrapped that section of the wire around the screw?

I can't think of a better way to do it - unwrapping the wire (which goes more then 3/4 of the way around the screw) isn't all that easy, and a good connection is assured.
I thought about that, but it's a bit impractical to do when you work with cable, as opposed to single conductors I guess.

I recently encountered a place where someone had taken such a folded-over conductor, flattened it and pushed into a backstabbed receptacle... that didn't go well! I think that was the first and only overheated European backstab device I've ever seen. Those receptacles only take 2 conductors per terminal, but he had 3, so he tried to get two into one hole.
Reno:
Yes, I remember doing receptacles that way, with stranded THW & THHN on pipe jobs, but not with solid.

I still prefer a pigtail.

Usually when I see that done it is daisy chaining devices in a gang box.

I suppose you could strip the RX jacket 12" or so, Fold it and jam it through the connector and connect it up inside but I bet the regular way ends up being faster.
314.16(B)(1) does acknowledge the method

Quote
Each loop or coil of unbroken conductor not less than twice the minimum length required for free conductors in 300.14 shall be counted twice.

Posted By: pooL8 Re: Pigtailing vs. Wiring-thru normal outlets - 03/03/11 01:52 AM
I was trained in a wire-thru province, and moved to a pigtail province. Needless to say I was the fastest splicer in the province for about 3 hours smile

I share the view of the extinction of the electrician to the assembler... with all this quick-connect technology.
A prefab world needs very little but a rubber mallet... and a machine-u-facturer.

In my training with wire-thru, I learned very quickly that making a circuit with my hand, with a load downstream, is like gettin bit by an electric cat!. So I took my time to trace the circuit and shut it off most of the time (CEC 2-304 Disconnecting). Especially with a possible 9 wires going to one plug.

My experience with wire-thru has left me almost fearless of live pig-tail circuits. Feels like a 9v battery on my tongue. And with these weird plastic boxes, shorts are a rarity, almost refreshing.

In some ways I like pigtailing better, but I know that the more stricter the rules get (safety/security), the more technology becomes quick-connect, the less respect the next generation of electricians will have for that animal we call electricity, as we push it further away into products.
I suppose the most elegant method would be to pigtail with stranded wire and use back clamp devices.
Reno,

Now that you mentioned it, I believe I did it too when I was an apprentice with my first boss. I think we also did it with the ground wire too.
If you don't pigtail, when you have a problem with a plug, then all plugs downstream are done.....in Canada, it's a code rule that you have to pigtail, so you don't interupt anthing down stream if you have to work on something. Here is another reason that i have been seeing lateley, if you check the push in's 2 or 3 years down the road, the mechanical mechanism loosens up over time and you start to get arching and sparking.....not good. Especially in my house.
I always thought it was a code rule too, but the only thing i ever found in the code was that a MWBC needed the neutral pigtailed
This is another discussion on the Canadian rule here
Actually having everything go off downstream might not be a bad idea. This way you know that there is a problem. If you pigtail all the devices, everything downstream would still work except the one bad receptacle and you might not find that out for many months later.
only problem is if i go into a business to fix a problem, some guy down the hall won't be happy when i switch out the plug and his computer crashes.....another reason to pigtail..i can't see a disadvantage to it.
Originally Posted by candyman
....in Canada, it's a code rule that you have to pigtail, so you don't interrupt anything down stream if you have to work on something.
.....some guy down the hall won't be happy when i switch out the plug and his computer crashes.....


Don't you shut off the power anyway before you change the receptacle??? crazy

Posted By: KJay Re: Pigtailing vs. Wiring-thru normal outlets - 04/15/11 05:15 PM
So, I have been fiddling around on the bench with some push-in connectors for a while now and I am surprised to find that solid copper wires from 18 to 12 AWG are fairly easy to loosen and work out of the connectors holes, while the same gauge tinned stranded wires seem almost impossible to remove once installed. Apparently, the harder you pull, the more the connector tang bites down into the solder, and since the wire is stranded, it doesn’t rotate very much inside the connector when twisted, where as the solid wire is too stiff to allow the tang to bite down enough to prevent it from being working out of the hole.
I don’t l know how this translates into actual use in the field, but I still found it interesting.
The ones I've tried don't have any kind of push-in or lever style release on them, so I assume that they are for one time use.
KJ this starts to sound like the perfect device for pigtailing. The stranded pigtail will be the only one that really moves around much once you stuff the solids and splice device in the back of the box. If you took one twist on the solids before you started stuffing it they wouldn't really move relative to the splice. The only problem I see is with dimmers and such that come with a built in pigtail. You would be cutting the splice out any time you had to replace it.
I've got to get some of those.

Posted By: KJay Re: Pigtailing vs. Wiring-thru normal outlets - 04/17/11 03:22 PM
Originally Posted by gfretwell
KJ this starts to sound like the perfect device for pigtailing. The stranded pigtail will be the only one that really moves around much once you stuff the solids and splice device in the back of the box. If you took one twist on the solids before you started stuffing it they wouldn't really move relative to the splice. The only problem I see is with dimmers and such that come with a built in pigtail. You would be cutting the splice out any time you had to replace it.


I suppose they could be, but if these are indeed the future of electrical splices and device connection, this is really going to be a major readjustment for someone like me. Mainly since I’ve spent the better part of the last few decades trying to avoid using this type of connection because of the associated trouble I’ve seen with them, so it’s kind of strange to now see this method being lauded and widely embraced.
I guess my first thought is in regard to troubleshooting and testing. At least with a traditional wirenut, you can just spin it off and untwist the wires if need be to separate them. I suppose you could use those long, needle like backprobe type test lead adapters for Molex connectors, to probe the connector holes, instead of just cutting them off.
Wago connectors actually have tiny holes for needle probes on the end opposite to the wire openings.

I was 100% set on using traditional "choc block" style connectors until I first had one of them melt down two years after I wired it myself (noticed the fizzling noise coming out of a box in the dining room) and then encountered some that wouldn't grip the wires no matter how hard you tightened the screws. That got me started on alternatives, first Voltomat (big box store brand, most likely something else relabeled) and then Wago. I completely wired a friend's place with those a few years ago (the same place where I had the bad-out-of-the-box choc blocks) and when I did some additional work this year all connections were perfectly fine. The only huge trouble spot I found was an older outlet where a Polish guy had managed to stuff a folded wire (long run stripped just an inch and folded over) into a terminal only rated for one wire... that did cause a minor meltdown.

BTW, does anyone need a few boxes of ancient Hi Scale wirenuts? laugh laugh laugh
I got to salvage the contents of a barn that apparently once belonged to an electrician and found 4 boxes of those, fairly surprising here in Vienna. Labeled in English, designed for AWG wire, manufactured in New York.
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