Has anybody seen this new product or has used this new product? Any thoughts about it?


http://www.idealindustries.com/prodDetail.do?prodId=spliceline&div=0&l1=push-in

I hope this website gets you there.

There was a rep handing them out at the ECF meeting but I haven't used them enough to have an opinion.
They seem to cost almost 4 times what a wire nut costs so you have to ask how much labor they save.

Touting that three of them fit thru a 1/2" KO may lead to abuse, and splicing in small raceways?

That's my concern ... as I see it, we still MUST have the splice in a box, and MUST have the required pigtail.

I think Ideal needs to be a bit more specific as to their claims, as the picture leads you to think the NEC rules have been 'waived.'

Maybe they were- does this gizmo qualify as a non-reversable crimp splice? What did they have UL evaluate it as?

I was trying to come up with the legal scenario about why you would need to pass a splice through a KO myself.
They show a made up box with the pigtails sticking out implying you just terminate the wires, snap in the the RX connector and walk away.

Maybe these boxes will come in prewired from China.

For that use, Ideal already offers their "In-Sure" connectors. As I see it, this new connector is only of value if you plan on pulling the splice into the pipe.

They show the pigtails sticking out of the 1/2" KO and a MC coming towards it. ... Don't forget the lock nut

OK, I thought I was the only one going down that path.

Next will be the locknut that installs from the exterior of the box.

Seriously, I can see an advantage on a job with a lot of pre-fab devices, but, Ideal guys...use the correct connector!!

If I was really doing a prefab job I would use snap in connectors. This should be scary to professionals since they are dumbing this down so much.
The other question is what would you look at on the rough if the boxes were not there yet, just the stapling?
Who inspects the prefabbed boxes? U/L?
This brings up more questions than it answers.

I don't know, Greg.
How do these devices really differ from them terminals in electronic lighting ballasts?
I've seen a LOT of them burn out in the last few years, wether by vibration or elevated ambient temperature.

The ad also mentions that when you use a stranded wire, you don't need to twist it up first.
How then, do you make sure that all of the strands are in the clamping part of the connector?
I mean, for something that has such low insertion force, it makes me wonder exactly how much pressure is on the wire itself, if it isn't enough, I can see a poor connection occuring.

I can see that these things would be pretty good for wiring repairs, but I don't think I'd use them for any new work.

I think they did say the right thing in the other literature. This would be good for pigtailing on a wire when you ran into a "too short" wire. If you could get in there, strip off enough to slide this on and still have enough insulation to be safe it could be a valuable thing to have in your bag of tricks.

Actually there does seem to be a disturbing line in the spec sheet PDF

Tongue in cheek - Who needs those extra strands, the reason they don't fit is because they are not needed. We can just trim them off, but then again they aren't touching anything.

I have some Ideal push in connectors (this is from about 5 years ago or so) and after trying them on stranded, granted it was smaller gage (for a low voltage setup) but within the gage limits on the listing, and after trying I went to a more sure splice because the strands would bend instead of catch. But, that being said they have some good pullout strength (as would be expected based on how they are built) once you get the strands in.

Well I'm glad to see that I'm not the only skeptic about these things. I haven't actually seen them yet except for literature, but something tells me that the retention force with #12 solid wire wouldn't be very good.

I used the handful of these the rep gave me. They did work well on the wires that were just an inch or two into the box. I would not use them for much else. All I think of are the service calls I get from the pushins on the receptacles and switches.

Ob

OH! Did I open another can of worms? Sorry! Actually the first thing I thought of is, why don't they allow you to "pin Back" #12 ga wire in a receptacle, but yet they will allow you to pin back #12 here?

As for splicing in a small raceway, maybe that would be good (allowed?) in a Plugmold strip. However you don't think that anyone would use it to splice in a piece of EMT do you?

Harold:
Can you say 'hack' or 'meat cutter'??

Harold, Wiremold makes their own connectors for splices within their product.

The wiremold splices are similar to crimpable butt splices, except that they are push-ins. They sure make things easier within wiremold!

Though I kept them on the truck, I never thought to use them elsewhere. Why would I? I was under the impression that you simply were not allowed to pull a splice into pipe. Now Ideal has me questioning myself.

I am not sure how you justify putting a splice in any raceway.

That's cause you're not a 'hack' Greg.

I think Reno means 'Plugmold' or 'Wiremold' brand surface metal raceway w/removable fronts. AKA 2000, 3000, 4000 etc.

Correct - that's what I mean.

Hey ... if they didn't want 'hack work,' then why was I issued a 'hacksaw?'

Hacksaws are to cut up hacks; No??

Thanks Reno...

I think most all of us have probably openly prayed for the demise of #14 back stabs on resi grade receptacles and switches, yet it seems every manufacturer is on the band wagon to come out with all this new improved 3M ScotchLok and Wago style crap, for everything from ballast disconnects to device terminals.
Not being one to buck technological improvement, I have used the ones that come in the Halo RC cans before, but had a problem with a loose neutral connection that cost me additional time to track down and fix, so now I just snip those orange things off and use wirenuts. I feel the extra 10-seconds and .06 cents per wirenut are a small price to pay for solid reliability.

I see that P&S and Leviton both have their own quick wire devices, like Wago does, with those plug in harnesses. They sent me some free samples, but I don't think I will ever use them. Not to be overlooked, it seems all the modular homes come with those infamous Tyco stab connector blocks hanging down below the floor joists.

Personally KJay,
I wouldn't even go with wire-nuts, if they were available here.
I don't like connections that only depend upon friction.
I'll use nothing less than a terminal connector that uses 1 or 2 screws that lock the wire(s) within the connector under screw (and often a "spreader plate") pressure.

As I said in my first post in this thread, you only need a bit of vibration or temperature increase to ruin one of these friction based connections.

From what I can see, this seems to be the "dumbing down" of electrical work, there is a certain amount of skill required to make a wire-nut joint up properly.
I can imagine these things being all over the DIY stores in a number of months and God help you guys when they do.

Is it just me or has a new way of making a flying splice just been invented?

Trumpy:
The flying splice hacks are going to be happy!

John,

I have seen splices inside of EMT before and with paddle fans. The issue with paddle fans is you have a short nipple that comes with the fan. Sometimes the wire is long enough for a slightly larger down rod. The problem comes in if you need a very long down rod and the wires aren't long enough to reach. Then I have seen where they have spliced inside the down rod.

Harold

I have seen that too but then the question becomes "is that down rod a raceway or just part of the fixture"?
It is not really part of the fixed building wire or a chapter 3 wiring method. It is "fixture wire".

310.15 says

Greg,

Did you mean 300.15 instead of 310.15?

Greg,

I forgot to mention that if the AHJ comes out for an inspection, how would he know if there was a splice inside that down rod?

Yes, I hate it when that happens




I am not sure that is a violation but I know what you mean about hidden violations.
We all have to trust our installers won't try to cheat and make it very painful when we catch them don't we.
I got paid by the hour and I could stand there and watch him take his whole installation apart if I thought he was cheating. Inspectors don't have a lot of power but we can get a builder where it hurts the most. We can take his time.

There is also the "CO" sign-off!!

That is "time" isn't it? My wife says it costs about $400 a day for a house to sit.
I have to say I have never really had a pissing match with an installer but I am sure it happens. I always thought we were all on the same team.

Well, Wago connectors have been around for almost 25 years in 230V country, and I never heard of as much as a single issue - on the contrary, most electricians in Europe are praising them as the ideal solution preventing fires caused by loose screw connections (due to alleged copper cold flux and lazy installers). Basically they say there's a spring inside that will always keep constant pressure, no matter how much the copper wire deforms. When filled with antioxidant paste they are even listed for aluminum wire and Al-Cu splices in Germany.
For devices, VDE had a hard time allowing push-ins for anything but light switches (max. 10A) but eventually in the early 90s they were allowed for receptacles (16A) and now it is flat out impossible to buy receptacles with screw terminals anywhere in Continental Europe and has been for the past 15 years. I've yet had to see a melted one, even under continuous high load (mind you, you can circuits up to 100% here). Then, I've seen plenty of loose screws.

I long resisted Wago connectors for splicing, but they are so much easier and faster to use that I finally resigned and considered them time-tested enough after 20 years.

I often wonder about how much of the "backstab" problems are caused by bending the wire over too far when jamming the device back in the box, deforming the spring.

Just a couple days ago I cut a couple quad outlets into a wall, replacing single gang boxes. One of the outlets was a backstab only Leviton that was hot to the touch from feed through load which ended up being 9.9A...(which ended up being the Coke machine in the breakroom) The other outlet on the same circuit was an old "H&H DELUXE" (remember those?) and it wasn't warm at all... The H&H had screw down pressure plates.

Wagos & Backstab outlets have their place, but I personally am not a fan of a connector that I can't place my own "calibrated" torque meter on.. my hand.

Ranger,


I am glad that the Wago connectors work so well. I think they are a great idea. I would also love them if they were safe for AL wires, cause here in the states, there aren't many options to use with AL wires. Plus there were a lot of homes around here that were wired with AL back in the day. Installing a small Wago in those tight boxes would help the homeowner out.

I've been using them in private work (i.e. renovations on my own place and helping friends) for about 5 years now and never had a single problem. They're not listed for stranded conductors, so then I still use screw-type connectors. Wago does offer connectors with release levers for stranded wire, but they're larger and considerably more expensive.

Wago sells a special antioxidant paste for aluminum wiring (Wago AluPlus) but I think in Germany it is not even required to be used as long as any generic antioxidant is used. I never heard about any trouble with that combination either, and in former Eastern Germany aluminum wiring is extremely common (it was used almost exclusively until the early 1990s and you can still find NOS rolls left over).

I assume in the US it's mainly a listing issue - I think there aren't any UL-listed Al connectors except for the Copalum crimps, are there any?

We also have the Ideal 65 purple wirenut for cu/al splices.
I won't get in that fight but they are listed.

The Ideal version of Wagos ("In-Sure") are listed for stranded wires.

Use of Wago-type connectors - including this new gizmo- on short wires in existing work is tempting, but problematic. The only failures I've had with the connectors has been when the bare wire had been previously used for connection, and was bent or nicked.

King makes small set-screw connectors that are listed for use with aluminum. Thomas & Betts has a line of "Marettes" (wire nuts) that are listed (CSA, not UL) for use on aluminum. (T&B may choose not to market them in the USA, but they are available).

As has been discussed here several times, 'back-stab' devices might appear to work like Wagos, but what's inside is often quite different. This seems to explain the difference in reliability.

is there any differentiating capacity from ampacity with these pessure connectors? In fairness, i don't see them on wirenut packaging....i.e.~ can we take it that if it's rated for 2-#10's , it's rated for 30A (USA) ??

~S~

Wago connectors have different current ratings depending on the national listing. Wago 273-105:
UL 600V 18-12AWG solid
CSA 600V 20A 18-12AWG solid
VDE 400V 24A 2.5mm2
OVE 400V 24A 2.5mm2
S 400V 2.5mm2
KEMA KEUR 400V 18A 0.75-2.5mm2
and so on.

I'm reading 20 amps through those?

that's hard to believe, but a listing's a listing Ranger

usually I nip off the ones that come with recessed lights, and use a wirenut, but that's just me

i wonder what connector method really does work best, seems i talk to other countries sparkies who all swear by those connector blocks like Trumpy describes

~S~

Yes, you can.

UL may not gather many Nobel prizes, but they're not completely without a clue. They assemble the things per instructions, then amp the hell out of them- among ither tests.

Tex verified what I saw in the White book. U/L only seems to list these by voltage and temperature (90 vs 75)
There may be more in the listing standard but they aren't bragging about it

personally, i think you get what you pay for with all these 'quicky' connection devices on the market

i mean, we all have anecdotals from the field

~S~

Well here Wago connectors are used regularly for general purpose circuit splicing, so they often do get loaded to at least 16A and withstand that without failure. Since they can take up to 2.5mm2 they could end up in circuits fused up to 25A (which slightly exceeds the European 24A rating). I doubt 2.5mm2 is fused at 25A very often though.

In the earlier days, various screw connectors were used, such as this:
http://www.elektrofachmarkt-online.de/Media/Shop/200005.jpg

or this:
http://www.electrotrade.at/contents/media/EDK1.jpg

or this type (commonly used for connecting light fixtures, in Austria also for in-circuit splices)
http://static-p4.fotolia.com/jpg/00/00/36/97/400_F_369715_RmAxl4EAyGh0fyGZVJFhq9fym4EA7Q.jpg

I've seen far more loose screws and overheating with those connectors than I care for!
In one case I can testify that the connection was tight originally since I made it myself. About 5 years later it had worked loose enough to overheat, arc and melt the connector! Apprently (even if some people deny this) copper does suffer some cold flux which makes screw connections loosen over time, especially during heat/cool cycles. BTW, the circuit in my case was only lightly loaded, a few 100W maximum (incandescent lights and perhaps a computer). In my uncle's apartment the kitchen circuit blew out due to such a connection while he used the microwave.

Wire nuts properly applied on solid wires are considerably sturdier I think, but Wago connectors are much easier and faster to usw, and as long as the wire is straight and the right length there isn't much you can do wrong. There are even transparent ones where you can visually check the proper seating of the conductors.

A few years ago I redid all splices in a place with old Eastern German aluminum wiring. It doesn't get used much and only with a 40W incandescent bulb, so I can't really tell how well the connections fare under high load, but if it ever gets a bigger load I'll open the boxes and have a look for you!

I've seen those here on equipment Tex


I guess there's a few differences across the big pond, iirc our magnitude is greater @120 than yours, then there's your differentials vs. our afci's to mitigate it all

I'm unsure if any indepth electrical study detailing the statistical viablity of connectors as a whole exists

Electrical forensics , at least here, are a tad nefarious in my humble opinion.

In fact last i heard the entity in charge of it's collection only had a return of 1/3 to 1/2 of all fire departments polled.

I guess it's not funded, or mandatory? Or maybe one affects the outcome of the other?

Certainly , nobody is asking us.....


And the manufacturers?, well , they'll telll you everything latest is always the greatest

~S~

I put one of those terminal strips in the top of my new panel to extend the wires that were not going to be long enough. It made a pretty clean installation. I think there is a picture bouncing around here somewhere.

Well most reports on the reliability of connectors I have come from electricians who mostly do troubleshooting. I don't have any official statistics, but from personal experience I can confirm that any screw connectors tend to wear loose unless re-tightened regularly.

I think the differences between 120 and 230V to ground are neglibible as far as connectors are concerned as long as the current is the same - heat dissipation on a given resistance shouldn't change as power is R*I^2.

True, we don't have AFCIs (nor has anyone ever taken them into consideration I think), but they're a fairly new phenomenon in the US too.
Our RCDs are basically equal to GFI breakers if you only look at individual circuits (except for the higher trip current of RCDs). The widespread use of RCDs on all circuit does have the advantage that high-impedance ground faults trip the RCD, usually before they can cause a fire.

All that being said, I'd love to see how one would insert stranded wire into the new connectors without mangling it completely!
All connectors for stranded wire I've come across yet have levers that temporarily release the spring, allowing you to insert the wire smoothly.

I suppose you could tin the wires beforehand. I think that is what Halo does with the wiring in their RC cans. Obviously this is way too much work to be practical in the field though.

Serving a carear of bad terminations, i'm sure we'd all agree on proper methods.

It's most likely our number 1 service related event , so it's also something we give a lot of consideration to

that said, why buy into all these quicky widgets that may end up a pita?

~S~

I disagree with the tinning of stranded wire and then inserting it into a screw tighted connection. When you tin the wires, and then compress them, the solid mass will sometimes fracture. This leads to a loose connection. That is why soft copper ferrules are used with fine stranded wire when using screw down connectors.

Let's nip this one in the bud ...

I have used stranded wire with connectors of this type - both 'In-Sure" and manufacturer-supplied, and it's generally not a problem.

You really have to untwist, mangle, and insert at a sharp angle to miss the groove in the clamp. The curved throat of the clamp really does guide the wires into the clamp.

Plus, with OUR wire, at least, the exposed 3/8" or so of stranded wire isn't very flexible at all.

Another forum, a few years back, had all manner of hissy fits thrown by the established members. Even after an Ideal spokesman joined the discussion, they continued to wail "I just don't understand ..." It was more a case of WON"T understand. The factory rep finally gave up, stating: they're listed, so too bad.

I hope we dn't reach that point at ECN. Go out and get some - most parts houses have bins of free samples - and play with them. If you like them, use them. If you don't, use something else.

Also, please drop the 'cheaper' cant. The connectors cost more than even the quality wire nuts (2-color Scotch-lok 2's) that I like to use. If you use the Wagos with the little levers, you can spend as much as 35 cents for each one!

Usually, even the most reclusive dinosaurs among us end up at a parts counter somewhere , and are exposed to the latest Reno

I'd say we're all hip to the good/fast/cheap axiom juggling act in the trades too, being a somewhat inescapable doctrine one realizes with any trade rag's advertising shtick

That said, would anyone here like to be the test pilot for this quicky wiget behind each splice in string of receptacles, because the manufacturer's rep said they were the best thing since jelly on toast?

if you've your druthers, .... please, let's not mistake discression, which is always prudent to profit, for obstinance, which really isn't

~S~

You may be right about that Larry. All I know is that it seems to be an industry accepted practice from way back when.
I know when I replace the keyed brass sockets on lamps, I often see factory tinned wires wrapped around the screw terminals. I do also see those short crimp on copper fork terminals or the brass crimp rings on the end of the wire being used quite a bit as well though.

Yes, the Wago connectors with levers are prohibitively expensive for general use, this is why they are only used for connecting light fixtures here (about the only likely situation where you'd want to splice solid and stranded wires in "household sizes"). While stranded wire is perfectly legal for fixed wiring, it isn't used for two reasons:
- it's bigger. Since the nominal cross-section of stranded wire is the sum of the strand cross sections, there's always some air spaces between the strands that makes the outer diameter bigger than that of solid wire the same nominal size, and it's enough to be an issue.
- connections. In "extended VDE land" ferrules are mandatory for conencting stranded wire to anything but explicitly listed Wago connectors (the one with the levers), and most devices with push-in terminals (i.e. 95% of what you can buy today) aren't listed for stranded wire at all, unless special ferrules with gas-tight crimps are used... thus, using stranded wire will drive installation cost through the roof. So stranded wire ist mostly a DIY special. When I encounter it and can't replace I usually crimp regular ferrules and pigtail using screw connectors only for this run.

Tinning wire ends has been banned by VDE eons ago, I think late 50s or early 60s. Prior to that it was frequently done and each and every burnt Schuko plug I've seen had tinned wire ends... tells a story I'd say.

Wow, I'd have fits if I couldn't use stranded wire, particularly in Walker Duct.

As for Ideal's new product: I wish I'd had it the last time I faced short taps. If ever you have to produce timely service work, then you know that re-pulling conductors is just not going to be tolerated.

As for second guessing Ideal -- I don't.

I must be lucky -- but I've never had to go back and correct my work due to faulty materials or installation. But then, I never rush make-up, never use the cheapest materials on offer to pinch a penny.

As for Ideal quality: they are the preferred make of wirenuts out my way. We go through them by the bag and the drum.

Here's a video of a Wago 273 being stress-tested at 100A... it only melts when the wire itself is already glowing red!
www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMG66uUp5cM&feature=related

Gee,

I didn't realize that I started such a large discussion with a very small sentence!