With all this talk of electric cars, I have one simple question: how long does it take to recharge them, and how much electricity is used?

Let's, for the sake of this discussion, assume you have just made a 13 mile round trip to the grocery store, never exceeding 45mph or climbing any extraordinary hills. Let's also assume that you're plugging into an ordinary 15-amp convenience circuit to recharge.

Will you pop the breaker? If not, how long will it take to replace the power you've used? How many kilowatt-hours will you need?

Reno
Great question but how can it be answered? What size motor? what voltage? How many VA is consumed? hard or soft push on the pedal?

Charger can be slow or fast. Big and small.

Use a 1 amp charger and it will take longer than a 12 amp charger which could be used on the 15 amp outlet. Upcoming code changes suggest the slow chargers will need a 20 amp T-slot so maybe a 15 amp breaker would trip after an hour or two.
There will also be some high rate chargers and those plugs will be much bigger than 20 amps but still less than generic.
I expect there will be cars that cannot be fully recharged overnight if they get close to flat in the day and I assume most battery technology won't allow a complete discharge either. But an 8 hour charge at 120 volts and 16 amps should push 15,360 VA back at the battery. I can't actually know how much will get saved in the battery due to the efficiencies involved. So for sake of this discussion a code compliant 20 amp Tslot from a 120 volt outlet can give you a charge rate of about 1900 VA with no loss due to efficiencies.

Just some gee whiz info is my golf cart takes about 6-7 KWH to bring it back from being pretty dead (6 batteries). A small electric will be 2.3 times that using old time lead technology (the typical Honda kit I was looking at used 14 golf cart batteries). That is worth about 40 miles.
The new charger for a Ford Focus is 6.6 KW and they say it will bring it back from the dead in less than 4 hours.
That works out to about 26 KWH for an advertised 100 mile range. I am guessing that is going pretty slow on flat land.

The industry is standardizing on a custom pin&sleeve connector 30A at 240V.

So forget the 15Amp thing.

Looking further down the road, 70A at 480V is being considered for Service Station style recharging from flat to full in 15 to 20 minutes.

Thanks for the plug in fo ...

Still ... I don't want any theory or what if's. I'd like someone to actually say something along the lines of "I drive my Edison Vunderkar to work daily (25 miles round trip) and it takes 2 hours to recharge and bumps my electric bill $7."

It's not a matter of engineering; it's a question of statistics. Given enough cars and enough miles, some sort of expectations can be had.

It's impossible to make any manner of intellegent decisions without this information.

Let's 'go back to the future,' to a world where we take our car to the grocery store and plug it into a light pole. The first question is: can the existing light pole circuit support the charging of the car? The next question is: will the car completely recharge during the 30 minutes I'm in the store? Finally, how much will that partial charge cost?

I've seen all manner of pie-in-the-sky assertions about the wonderful future of electric cars, but no one has put the promises in these practical terms.

Charge times are temperature limited by what the battery type will survive. The BMW li ion 'Mini' [ the retro-styled travesty of a much loved quintisentially British car, but it goes like a bat out of h. and it's beautifully built like a Roller] has a run time of 3 hours and a similar charge time. Since in England the weather tomorrow is anyone's guess, [which is exactly what our forcasters do!], take those figures with a bucket of salt- if it's cold out, the range will drop 30%. Commercial Charge locations away from home are more pertinant. If you want to go from London to Futtock's Magna, you'll be walking the last few miles!

http://www.reghardware.com/2008/10/20/bmw_e_mini/

..and for anyone whos never driven a 'mini'...Wonderful! We had a Cooper 'S' back in the days before the ankle biters. Bored out from a litre to 1.375 by Denise's brother, it was frighteningly fast [120mph] and drove like it was mounted on rails. With little rubber blocks as 'springs' and you had to 'tyre lever' 4 smallish people into it. Unbelievable fun!

I think the real future of electrics as commuter and shopping cars will be the "parking meter" that charges your car as long as you feed it money. These days that may actually be paid for on your phone. (dial the number of the parking meter and it shows up on your phone bill)
I have to admit, this is really a pretty cheap way to get around once you buy the car and pay for the maintenance but the battery is really the biggest maintenance cost, ending up costing more than the electricity from my calculations when I was trying to get the numbers to come out.
The other side of that is the tax, which would end up being more than what the power costs if we want to replace the gasoline taxes we would be losing.

Reno:
I would like to give you info, but I know of not a single electric (100%) car owner as of yet.

On the radio a few weeks back, the first Chev Volt was sold to a guy in north Jersey. The dealer made a big photo/publicity OP out of it. Actually flew the guy back from Florida to take delivery & park it in the service area & a return flight back to Fla.

To give you any input, the 'Leaf' is expected real soon...

Best I could offer is my Twp Prius has 39.3MPG on the computer, all city. My personal Honda Civic (Plain gas) gets 35+ on my commute. To that I have to say...advantage..Civic

We are expecting the first Electric Cars to hit the dealers 3rd Quarter in Canada.
Not to many rules yet for the product.

Frankly I am concerned this is more green washing and they just move the pollution to generating stations from the car's tailpipe. Given a choice I would tend to stay with Hybrids over electric except maybe a city only car where it was an in town commuter.
No matter how you dice it electric cars are not as green as pundits claim. Batteries will always be an issue and a car's range will slowly reduce until you get stuck 10 minutes out of the driveway after an overnight charge.
Batteries change the pollutant, maybe from something toxic to something more toxic.
What about the effect of the cold on the battery? Does the car get 1/4 the range at 0 and no range at -40 ?
The car itself carries the same environmental footprint in the factory and I just don't believe the net environmental cost is that much better than other energy types now in use?
I live in a Province that has a lot of Hydro electric generation so we are one place where electric might have a huge displacement of overall environmental impact but we still generate some power with coal or natural gas fired turbines.

This is off on a tangent but it really ticks me off when something that doesn't really exist, gets named "Car of the Year". I think being made by Government Motors has a lot to do with that. I look at it as I see the Boeing 747 Vs the Concorde. The 747 was a gold mine. The Concorde was a slick money hole that flew only by the good graces and charity of the British and French taxpayers. I have no desire to trade my '04 Accord that gets 35+MPG on trips, running on gasoline, for a battery maintenance nightmare that runs on coal. Maybe when we get all those clean, safe nuclear power plants that the green idiots keep blocking....
Joe

well we exist in a capitalist system , which only offers 'enlightened self interest' capitalist remedies....


possibly of interest>

Who Killed the Electric Car?

Who Killed the Electric car movie

~S~

Joe,
At the risk of me getting snagged for being off-topic, everyone in the car business knows that all of those awards are for sale.
Ever wonder why so many different awards from so many different reviewers always seem to pick the same car?

My problem with the electric car is basically that it has enough range for my regular commute...assuming that I don't make any extra trips during the day or want to stop somewhere after work on my way home.

BTW, what are you supposed to do on vacation? Bring an extension cord so that you can plug it into the GFI receptacle in the bathroom of your hotel room?

***Rant ends here***

Someone brought up a good point. COLD batteries. I wonder how the batteries will work when the temp is -20ºC. I know my camera battery does NOT work when I leave it in the car. I have heard of contractors who are switching back to ni-cad because the new battery technology does not work in the cold.

Some of the recent posts have come around to my point ...

Right now, it costs me about $28 (and five minutes) to fill my tank, and that tank will carry me 300 miles.

I simply cannot make an informed decision as to electric cars untill someone can tell me that I can expect 'filling' an electric car will cost me $x, take "y" minutes, and carry me "z" miles.

Likewise, we have seen 'ordinary' cars often exceed 200,000 miles before needing major work. Can anyone tell me how many miles I can expect before an electric car needs major maintenance?

At this point, I'd even settle for some data derived from places like Scottsdale, Az., that allow the use of 'golf carts' on the streets. Are electric golf carts able to perform acceptably, even in those restricted areas? Or, for that matter, what's the golf course experience as to charging time, run time, and expense?

I will ask my wife for the bills from the cart barn. They have a separate meter, just for the carts and this time a year, each one will be doing 36 holes. That is probably about 12-15 miles, pretty much pedal to the metal.

all fair Q's Reno

but i wouldn't hold my breath for straight answers on such a politicized issue

~S~

Not to be a spoil sport, but is this data worth anything ????

Power to weight ratio, duty cycle, battery chemistry, regenerative braking or lack there of, etc. Do any of these factors relate to what the OP was asking? I am sure Alan in France can tell you how much he has to charge his electric bike, but none of it answers the basic question.
What is the "at the plug Watt Hour per mile"

Larry C

EVs are not going to be economically competitive for a VERY long time.

Battery/Cell research in the labs indicates that next generation Li-ion holds the promise of FINALLY getting close.

But they are going to be a rich man's toy.

EVs are NOT practical at all in cold weather.

It is not practical to recharge them with PV arrays: EVs need to charge at night.

One of the things that tends to bias me against electric cars is the fact that I maintain 22 inverters, of one manufacturer, along our right-of-way. These inverters contain 37, 12 volt, 10 year(yeah right), VRLA batteries. These inverters don't have to move, just sit there humming along. The batteries all share the same ambient conditions, with even a little heat provided beneath them. They are there to provide 10 minutes of battery backup at full rated load but also to provide seamless switching when traction power fails, over to the utility. Why is it that one or two batteries in the string will just crap out? For me it's no more seamless switching. For you, in a an electric car, it's a hole in your electric gas tank. One poster mentioned enough range for his daily commute. I guess you can probably count on that when you drive it out of the dealership. What about a year later? Remember how each new battery technology would come out and they would tell us, "These batteries do not have memory problems like NiCds."??? I've got a bunch of NiMHs that make liars out of them. LiPos are great for power output per weight but like to puff up and burst into flame. Most of the batteries I work with shouldn't be discharged below 1.75 VPC. Frequent deep discharging shortens battery life. Recharging at too high a rate isn't good for the plates and also shortens life. Do electric cars have any way to equalize the string during charging? Do you get to switch your car or charger for the choice between rapid charge or best battery life? Forgive me for not researching each of these issues with the electrics but I have no desire to place any trust in one. Let's face it, you won't likely be in much danger if your golf cart quits on you.
Joe

Tesla, I understand your assertions. That's the problem with the issue: all assertions and no real data!

I am well aware that a golf cart and a street-legal car are two different animals (but you haven't seen my Scion!). Yet, the data might be of value in disproving the thesis. That is, if it costs $3/ mile to recharge a flippin' golf cart, it's safe to say that an electric car -at 10x the weight and 4x the speed- hasn't got a prayer. Ditto if the golf cart batteries are only good for -let me make up a number- 500 miles.

I've had enough platitudes and promises. I want some FACTS.

Reno:
I can tell you that two of the major golf courses I worked (as EC) at reverted to controling the cart barns for cart charging under favorable 'off-peak' electric rates.

One club had 125 cart chargers, the other was 160 chargers.

ALL regular charging was only available 11:30PM to 7:30AM, 8 hours. The carts survived the 18 to 36 hole day, and one course was very 'hilly'. IMHO, this method is still in use at both clubs. Control reduced utility bill substantially.

Back to your OP:
Projected range of the electric cars, and the initial cost are going to curtail sales to a lot of people. My area of NJ, and most of my neighbors commute 50+ miles to work, with the AM rush at 70-75 clicks baring accidents. Undocumented costs for maintenance of the electrics is a guess at best as there is no track records.

As I said above, as soon as I get a permit app for one, I will let you know.

My electric bicycle was a hand me down from a friend who had upgraded to a newer li-ion model. He just retired and was frittering away some of his pension lump sum! A 2002 model, the original lead-acids were shot, but as they say, never look a gift fractional horse-power in the mouth. I priced up an upgrade to li-ions, as they are half the weight and offered greater range. Price for 36 volts @ 12Ah [+ mandatory new charger] was $600, - over a third the cost of a new bike, so there's a warning! I opted for new lead-acids, at $150 [use existing charger].
It does 15 mph max. Range without pedalling [I don't pedal, why keep a dog and bark! ]is about 20 miles. No idea what it costs to charge, but being so low-powered [150W motor] it's peanuts. I do keep it topped up, never exhaust the batteries [it has a cell condition monitor] and keep it frost free. I'll be honest- it's a toy!

those batteries never seem to run outta collusion>

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-12138420

Follow their progress as the highly-esteemed BBC currently [hehe] tries to drive from London to Edinburgh in an electric BMW Mini at taxpayers' expense.

'First Customer'

Suddenly a cloud lifts; news spreads that someone is actually using the electric charging point for real; car-park attendants from all over central Nottingham are summoned by walkie-talkie to come and admire the spectacle of an electric car plugged in to a socket.

"Welcome to the Victoria Centre," says the customer services co-ordinator, Gary, who is first on the scene.

"You're our first customer in the three years!"

He is quickly joined by the yellow jacketed Natalie, Amy and Robert.

We are hastily awarded the ultimate prize: free parking for at least two hours.

Then it's back on the road, for the 43 mile (70km) trip to Meadowhall Shopping Centre in Sheffield.

There are about 8 charging points in the centre, so I've learnt by now that no one else will be on them.

Furthermore I venture to suggest in advance that no one else has EVER been on them. At least not for real.



man....talk about dangling the carrot....

~S~

I'm waiting for him to attempt the Newcastle - Edinburgh leg, because there are no commercial posts between them. That and the language problem could scupper him...

One Sunda morn young Lambton went
A-fishing in the Wear;
An' catched a fish upon he's heuk
He thowt leuk't vary queer.
But whatt'n a kind ov fish it was
Young Lambton cudden't tell-
He waddn't fash te carry'd hyem,
So he hoyed it doon a well!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PNDltwH14zM

The now standardized European charging system is designed for a maximum of 43kW (63A @ 400V 3phase).

The design time for charging an empty car battery completely is 3.5 hours.

The above mentioned Mini will charge within this time @ 32A 3phase, its capacity is supposed to be 35 kWh. This allows for 200km of driving before next charging. At least in theory.

Although the European system should become available everywhere, this does not necessarily mean, that the design power is available everywhere. It is therefore possible to use the same system @ home on a 16A 230V circuit, with of course longer charging time. Car and socket communicate after plugging in, the car will be immobilized automatically and has to be released as well as the connection cable by a chip card that you bear on you, after charging.

The unmentioned elephant in the room for electric cars is heating and air conditioning. If you live in Southern California where it is 75 all the time you might not care but I bet John is not getting in his EV right now unless he wears a snow mobile suit. How many BTU does it take to get that to a reasonable level. A typical car heater is usually about 20k BTU. (around 6KWH)
In the summer you have the same problem, going in the opposite direction. A car interior might be 120 degrees when you open the door and you need about 1.5-2 tons of AC to get that cool before you can get were you are going. That is about all the battery power you can carry, before you step on the accelerator.

Does anyone else find it odd that the electric cars getting hawked today have extra electrical loads like back-up cameras as standard equipment?

Apparently plain old mirrors don't work anymore...

Hey, I have an idea; since we now have a limited electrical supply...let's deplete it as fast as we can!

What about the electric Humvee? will they get the same mileage as a Tesla or a civic?
My motorcycle can go 450 km on $25.00 My car is currently about $55.00 to go the same distance.
I agree there is not much to compare but a Prius gets 50 to 60 KM per liter. That is better than my motorcycle but not my wifes scooter and my bicycle beats them all once you convert to calories ;-)
So how do you compare $/Km from electric to gas? I bet the Prius electric is a lot more than the hybrid in lifetime operating cost and I suppose that will take a few years.
I still think most of this green technology is "Green Washing" and that a complete system analysis might actually prove that electric is not cheap nor the best environmental cost balance. In that equation nuclear, coal fired plants VS Hydro-electric will have to be part of the costs analysis as well as the environmental.

What does a need to run our generating facilities 24 hours at high demand vs just day time? Will moving the energy source from fuel to electric mean the water must flow through the dam during what was fill the dam up time? and create water shortages or bigger dams?
In BC we have been arguing the benefit of another dam in the interior. Funny how 1 of the greenest and most reliable electric generation methods gets shot down to protect the local ecosystem by the same people that are fighting the gas and coal fired generation in favour of wind or solar even though wind and solar are not reliable and often the Hydro electric is still the most environmentally appropriate method here. Heck we go weeks without seeing sunshine here.
The best locations for wind farms are also the same places where people fight to keep the natural beauty of a park or desolate place. All just Green Washing to me.

Green washing is new to me Mike, grand analogy

and while we're all knawing the personal transportation issue over, let's not forget the Segway

Ironic that it ended badly for it's creator

~S~

Sparky
I have not heard the WIKI definition of Green washing, if there is one but a couple of Hippies I know lent it to me. Basically the marketing hype associated with giving the impression that this choice is good for the environment. Almost always without audit or accountability.

Funny, they are taking out dams here. The fish are more important than the CO2.
You couldn't build the Colorado river dams or the TVA today.