ECN Forum
Posted By: Obsaleet Lead Certifacation - 04/20/10 03:47 AM
Hi All,

Anyone know anything about having to be certified for lead paint abatement. There is supposedly a new law requiring all contractors to be certified. Fed law, policed by the EPA.?
Posted By: gfretwell Re: Lead Certifacation - 04/20/10 05:02 AM
I did just hear one interesting thing. There are only 4 states where the EPA has authorized AHJs to enforce this law.
From Bryan Holland (City of Northport Fl) in response to an inquiry

Quote
Thank you for contacting the Toxic Substances Control Act (TSCA) Assistance Information Service Hotline.

Local building Departments could enforce the EPA RRP (Renovation, Repair, and Painting) Rule in States authorized by EPA to administer their own RRP programs. As of 4/17/10, these States include Wisconsin, Iowa, North Carolina, and Mississippi.



Posted By: HotLine1 Re: Lead Certifacation - 04/20/10 01:20 PM
All info about this subject has been "talk" at various gatherings, but....nothing has been set in stone to my knowledge.


Posted By: jdevlin Re: Lead Certifacation - 04/20/10 05:45 PM
Some info here. As I understand if you work on anything older than 1978 you need to have the certification.

http://www.centerforhealthyhousing.org/html/eparule.htm
Posted By: HotLine1 Re: Lead Certifacation - 04/20/10 06:39 PM
Jdevlin:
Thanks for the link!!!

My comments above relate to 'local' action or inaction on this.

Hopefully OB can read, and contact the Commonwealth of PA, to stay out of trouble.

Posted By: gfretwell Re: Lead Certifacation - 04/20/10 07:27 PM
I suppose, everyone who may need it, should pay the money and take the one day course but it is really still unclear who will be enforcing this. It sounds like if your state has not taken the effort to get their program EPA certified, they are not allowed to enforce this law. You might not to be the first one in your state to find this out in court.
I honestly do not know what to take away from the response Bryan got from EPA.
Posted By: EV607797 Re: Lead Certifacation - 04/21/10 04:06 AM
I first heard about this on a plumbing forum a few months ago. If I recall correctly, the fines for violations were insane (something well into the tens of thousands of dollars) for "causing/creating and opening greater than four square feet without proper certification and abatement procedures". I'm pretty sure this was something posted by a contractor in MA, second only to CA for absolutely crazy regulations.

Did you know that it is illegal for anyone other than a licensed plumber to perform ANY plumbing work (including repairs) in MA? Yep, a homeowner cannot so much as replace a sink faucet. In many towns there, the inspectors actually patrol for water heaters, etc. left at the curb for trash pickup and check for permits.

More big government "NOT" increasing taxes. Aren't inordinate fines and programs just another name for additional taxes?
Posted By: HotLine1 Re: Lead Certifacation - 04/22/10 02:28 AM
Ed:
Time permitting I have to bring this subject up with the CO (Construction Official) & the Building guys to see who/if any local enforcement has to be done in my Twp.

As the Electrical Subcode (AHJ) I want to be able to give a heads up to the EC's both in that Twp and the guys that I do CEU's for, and share with other AHJs.

Posted By: gfretwell Re: Lead Certifacation - 04/22/10 02:51 AM
If what I am reading is true your CO do not have jurisdiction to enforce this. It has to be an EPA official
Posted By: schenimann Re: Lead Certifacation - 06/28/10 03:51 AM
Just to let you know.

NC is beginning to enforce this. I have 2 GCs that have taken the certification. This is a federal cert. It is required if you disturb any area larger than, I think, 6 square ft inside, or a little larger outside. I am not an expert on it. Only going on what they said.

This could certaintly affect a panel change or running wire in an older house. I will probably have to get mine just to be safe. There are no permits required(yet), only that you have to have the proper certification in order to do the work. Yee haw.
Posted By: KJay Re: Lead Certifacation - 06/28/10 05:14 AM
This has apparently been in effect since April of this year.
The EPA recently announced a temporary extension of the certification requirement to allow more time for firms and individuals to get certified, but they say they are still enforcing the work practice part of the RRP, so technically you can still get fines for not following them.
I don’t know how likely it is that the EPA will have enough enforcement officials in the field anytime soon, but I’m sure they will probably be looking for a few individuals to make examples out of, so as to scare everyone else into compliance.

Here is a link to the RRP.
RRP

I guess it only makes sense that the EPA would add additional regulation during the worst economic recession in the history of the country…. And to the last sector of the construction market that is still alive in many areas, that being residential remodels.
Another thing that baffles me is how they estimate that the average cost per job will only be around $35.00.
I don't see how when you count the HEPA vac, plastic film, masking tape, dust wipes, labor involved for set up, maintaining the site, cleanup at completion and any disposal fees for all the new trash generated, that will no doubt end up in a landfill and in our drinking water supply anyway.
I’ll bet your glad these clowns don’t work in your estimating department.
Posted By: gfretwell Re: Lead Certifacation - 06/28/10 05:57 PM
They are creating FEDERAL employment. Most of the job growth we hear about in those rosy reports in in government. Contractors are still mowing lawns around here to get by.
Posted By: sparky Re: Lead Certifacation - 06/29/10 01:11 AM
Quote
I’ll bet your glad these clowns don’t work in your estimating department.


lord no KJay

just copped a bid on an old public building rewire, they want the {evil spawn of satan} K&T gone

thing is, it's 18 century vintage, so i gotta call in a lead certified contractor as a CYA, the lead issue hass assumed enough windage that even the customer is asking...

i guess it's for the best , we're all suppose to be green (or wear propellor beanies???) but i just don't appreciate this iron fist approach while BP (and the even more evil MMS) can get away with envirocide

~S~
Posted By: harold endean Re: Lead Certifacation - 06/29/10 11:29 PM
John,

I just heard from an ex-plumbing inspector that the local heath dept's were going to enforce this new law. I will keep my ears open to see if I hear more info.
Posted By: harold endean Re: Lead Certifacation - 06/29/10 11:33 PM
Another thought, I can just see one contractor turning in another contractor because he lost the bid to the second guy. So the first contractor will drop a dime to the EPA or whoever and tell them that the #2 GC is not certified. That will be one way to get back at him for taking the job away. What do you think?
Posted By: renosteinke Re: Lead Certifacation - 06/30/10 12:44 AM
The abuse of power will always be in the 'right' hands.

I spent a year in business for myself, and failed. While the reasons for my failure are still being evaluated, one major factor was the costs of governmental compliance.

Lead certification; Asbestos certification; EPA (Freon) certification; multiple licenses; PPE certifications; etc. Every month I was losing $500+ to some manner of fee (and the various seminars, tests, etc. mandated by those agencies). With most of these things having a lifespan of less than three years, there's not any chance to spread the cost over time, either.

I do not see ANY role for the local Health Dept in enforcing the EPA rules .... indeed, it seems that such involvement is not allowed by our Constitution.

Traditional Jews recite a daily prayer called the "18 Benedictions." Oddly enough there are 19 benedictions in it.

#19 was added at the time of the Inquisition, and says "For the informer, let there be no hope." That's the path we're headed down- a road to Hell, paved with good intentions.
Posted By: gfretwell Re: Lead Certifacation - 06/30/10 01:12 AM
Harold, the way I read it, unless your Health department seeks and receives certification from EPA they are not allowed to enforce this law. I suppose you could write a local ordinance that mimics the federal statute and enforce that.
Posted By: sparky Re: Lead Certifacation - 06/30/10 01:37 PM
Quote
#19 was added at the time of the Inquisition, and says "For the informer, let there be no hope." That's the path we're headed down- a road to Hell, paved with good intentions.


we , here in the USA , have one of the lowest ratio's of small biz's (and don't be fooled by SBA standards, let's talk mom & pop shops) in the world , mostly due to federalization

perhaps the tenther's have a point

~S~
Posted By: electure Re: Lead Certifacation - 06/30/10 03:54 PM
Guys ...... I can see this thread is getting too far off topic.

The original question was about lead certifications.

Let's get back on track.

Posted By: renosteinke Re: Lead Certifacation - 07/01/10 01:01 AM
That said, I have two questions for the audience:

1) Are you lead certified?; and,

2) What was your total expense to get certified ... EPA fee, seminar fee, travel and lost income expense, materials and equipment you've had to buy? What's the 'bottom line?'
Posted By: sparky Re: Lead Certifacation - 07/01/10 12:23 PM
1) not yet, waiting for it to come around again 2)i'm told it's a day course, a few hundred bucks

~S~
Posted By: gfretwell Re: Lead Certifacation - 07/01/10 05:20 PM
They had a lead course here, run by one of the builder groups for $75 or so including lunch.
Posted By: renosteinke Re: Lead Certifacation - 07/02/10 01:24 AM
Having been involved with one builders group ....

You can often get such discounted things - btw, does everyone know that they're required to have the 30-hr OSHA course as well now? - because the chapter has someone aggressively seeking government grants to subsidize such things.
Posted By: KJay Re: Lead Certifacation - 07/13/10 01:36 PM
Well, you can add MA to the list of states that now have their own Division of Occupational Safety [DOS] RRP regulations. They received the needed approval from the EPA to last week.

One change that is more stringent than the EPA’s RRP is that the certified renovator is required to be on site at all times. MA also naturally wants more money, $375.00 for the certification as opposed to the EPA’s $300.00.
At the moment, I’m not sure if actual enforcement of the rules will be done through local building inspector departments or specifically through DOS, but I guess I will find out soon enough.

From the DOS website:
Effective July 9, 2010, the Division of Occupational Safety promulgated amendments to 454 CMR 22.00 (Deleading and Lead-Safe Renovation), and, in conjunction with the Executive Office for Administration and Finance, amendments to 801 CMR 4.02 454 (16) and (18) (Licensing Fees for Lead-Safe Renovation Contractors and Lead-Safe Renovator Training Providers). The amended version of 454 CMR 22.00 can be viewed by clicking HERE . The amendments to 801 CMR 4.02 454 (16) and (18) change the licensing fee and surcharges for Lead-Safe Renovation Contractors from $575 for a one-year license to $375 for a five-year license, and waive the $1,775 annual fee for Lead-Safe Renovator Training Providers if they are a State, federally recognized Indian Tribe, local government or non-profit organization.

These amendments, which establish safety standards for renovation, repair and painting work that disturbs lead paint in target housing and child-occupied facilities built before 1978, parallel similar federal EPA requirements that became effective on April 22, 2010 under the “Renovation, Repair and Painting Rule” (RRP Rule), 40 CFR 745.80-92. The amendments to 454 CMR 22.00 are designed to be as protective of human health and the environment as the federal standard. Effective July 9, 2010, DOS received authorization from EPA to administer and enforce the lead safety standards for renovation, repair and painting work set forth in 454 CMR 22.00, in lieu of the federal standard being enforced by EPA in Massachusetts.
Posted By: nrp3 Re: Lead Certifacation - 07/24/10 09:33 PM
What I still don't understand is if I am based in NH but have a MA license as well, and I come to work in MA that involves lead, do I have to pay the 300 to EPA and 375to MA or will the EPA fee cover work in both states?

As of now, I have taken the class and had my picture taken, but I haven't paid the EPA. Then again, I haven't done any work lately that would require it either. That and I really don't have the money for it at the moment.
Posted By: Niko Re: Lead Certifacation - 09/22/10 08:24 PM
One of the GC that i work with just finished an 8 hour class. He told me basically if you are working on a house that is built before 1978 you need to add 30% to cover the cost of masking,removal and disposal of the lead that is in the paint.

He and i agreed that if he does that he is not being competitive and will be loosing bids to other none compliant contractors.
furthermore, if he doesn't do what he needs to do then the feds will fine him for about $37k per day of violation.

i am pro safety, however, the cost has to recovered from the client or the government. If the customer sees a bid that is 30% less of course they are taking that route. He also mentioned that beginning October EPA will have heavy advertising on Lead certified contractors trying to educate the consumers to use Lead Certified Contractors for their project.

it seems to me that if i run my business and follow the rules and regulations exactly to the dot, i will be loosing money and i won't be in business long. Unless the feds put the effort and heavily fine unlicensed and uncertified contractors and do educate the public to use properly licensed contractors.


What are you thoughts on this and how many of you are certified.
Posted By: harold endean Re: Lead Certifacation - 09/27/10 02:22 PM
Has anyone heard about a letter that the homeowner can sign reliving the GC about the lead removal? I heard here in north NJ that there was such a letter. The GC would give it to the homeowner and the HO would sign it. It somehow releases the GC from liability. Now I don't know how true it is, I just heard a rumor.
Posted By: gfretwell Re: Lead Certifacation - 09/27/10 04:31 PM
About the only way I can think of that would relieve the contractor is if the letter said there was nothing in the house older than 1987.
Posted By: Niko Re: Lead Certifacation - 09/28/10 02:44 AM
I don't think there is such a letter, or at least that is what the GC told me. because i did ask him about that. That would be nice, the client assumes responsibility or releases the contractor from liability.

i think i will take that class. just so i don't get into trouble.
Posted By: Bill Addiss Re: Lead Certifacation - 09/28/10 04:28 AM
It seems the 'Opt-Out' letter option may have been revoked.

Quote
ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION
AGENCY
40 CFR Part 745
[EPA–HQ–OPPT–2005–0049; FRL–8823–7]
RIN 2070–AJ55
Lead; Amendment to the Opt-Out and
Recordkeeping Provisions in the
Renovation, Repair, and Painting
Program
AGENCY: Environmental Protection
Agency (EPA).
ACTION: Final rule.
SUMMARY: EPA is finalizing several
revisions to the Lead Renovation,
Repair, and Painting Program (RRP) rule
that published in the Federal Register
on April 22, 2008. The RRP rule
established accreditation, training,
certification, and recordkeeping
requirements as well as work practice
standards on persons performing
renovations for compensation in most
pre-1978 housing and child-occupied
facilities. In this document, EPA is
eliminating the ‘‘opt-out’’ provision that
currently exempts a renovation firm
from the training and work practice
requirements of the rule where the firm
obtains a certification from the owner of
a residence he or she occupies that no
child under age 6 or pregnant women
resides in the home and the home is not
a child-occupied facility. EPA is also
requiring renovation firms to provide a
copy of the records demonstrating
compliance with the training and work
practice requirements of the RRP rule to
the owner and, if different, the occupant
of the building being renovated or the
operator of the child-occupied facility.
In addition, the rule makes minor
changes to the certification,
accreditation and state authorization
requirements.
DATES: This final rule is effective July 6,
2010.

See Opt-out Rule (PDF)on following page (under Final Regulations and Policy):
http://epa.gov/lead/pubs/regulation.htm

Bill
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