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Posted By: Electricmanscott New GFCI's - 12/15/02 12:18 PM
Has anyone come across the new lockout type gfci receptacles? I have. The price is double the standard gfci. Begin the outrage!
Posted By: sparky Re: New GFCI's - 12/15/02 01:01 PM
hmmm, this brings a Q....

~ when UL dictates a new standard, what do we in the field do with all our existing stock??
Posted By: harold endean Re: New GFCI's - 12/15/02 01:48 PM
Scott,

Here in northern NJ my supply house told me that they are staring to stock the new GFI's. They will only be about $4 more expensive in my supply house. Is it required, I don't believe that NEC is requiring it yet. Is it a good idea? Yes, becuase how many times I go into a house for a final inspection and find that GFI receptacles are reverse Line/Load wired and how many times I find GFI's that were used during the construction and then don't work for the final. I believe all supply houses are allowed to use up their stock first.(as well as the manufactures)

Harold
Posted By: Tom Re: New GFCI's - 12/15/02 02:11 PM
it is customary to allow the wholesale houses to sell off existing inventories.

Seems to me that I heard about a study that found out that 18% of GFI devices lost their ability to provide GFI protection. This tells me that most people don't use the test button or if they do, they don't bother getting the GFI fixed when it quits working.

See the last paragraph of 90.4
Posted By: Electricmanscott Re: New GFCI's - 12/15/02 02:59 PM
From what I understand the lockout feature is a UL listing requuirement that takes effect 1-1-03. This is not an NEC rule. I beleive that you can sell and use all existing supplies untill they are gone. My cost for these are a little over $11.00 or so. Old gfci's were unde $7.00.
Posted By: spyder Re: New GFCI's - 12/15/02 03:28 PM
Why the outrage? In the end it means more profit for us! As electricians we always seem to fight change, I rarely hear other trades complain about changes.
Posted By: sparky Re: New GFCI's - 12/15/02 03:48 PM
spyder;
it's not only up to field electricians to implement change, it falls on our shoulders to publicize the changes also.

sort of makes us the 'sales' end for all the powers that be.......and i HATE sales....
Posted By: spyder Re: New GFCI's - 12/15/02 09:13 PM
I don't see how this GFCI UL change has any negative impact on electricians. We are still required to insall them in certain locations per NEC. The only difference is they won't work at all if wired improperly (not a bad thing) and they cost a few bucks more (big deal because you just pass the cost on to the customer).
Posted By: Electricmanscott Re: New GFCI's - 12/16/02 03:15 AM
Spyder I completely agree with you. the higher the item is priced the higher your profit on the item will be in most cases. My crack about the outrage was more to stir things up. I know that there are people here who actually will be outraged by this.
Posted By: sparky66wv Re: New GFCI's - 12/16/02 04:54 AM
Since few of my competitors put in GFCIs at all, it makes things more expensive for me on bid jobs.

[Linked Image]

Oh well, part of the biz...
Posted By: Electricmanscott Re: New GFCI's - 12/16/02 11:53 AM
Virgil, it dosen't make it more expensive for you, it makes it more expensive for the customer and more profitable for you. If people do not want to pay for a safe and code compliant installation, you are fighting a losing battle that you can't win. I am starting to see very clearly how great the Massachusetts way of doing things (in this regard anyway) really is. With inspections, code enforcement, statewide code uniformity, board of electricians, and accountability, things are much better for the "good guys" than it seems they are in your area. I guess your sales skills are as important as your electrical skills.
Posted By: sparkync Re: New GFCI's - 12/16/02 12:22 PM
I must be missing something here. Is there a code change I'm not aware of?? Are new type of GFI's going to be required??? Thanks.. Steve...
Posted By: sparky66wv Re: New GFCI's - 12/17/02 01:05 AM
Electricmanscott,

It's interesting here that most GC's and homeowner's seem to have a better "idea" or budjet for the electrical long before I show up. Let's call this number "X". Let "Y" be the cost of materials with the older GFCIs, no AFCIs, etc., and let "Z" be the extra cost for the new GFCIs and the AFCIs.

Now, Let's call "W" the labor, overhead, and profit.

X-Y=W

X-(Y+Z)=W

Therefore: Z = 0, or W must lower in value.

Scott, I'm not trying to be sarcastic. If you disagree, please explain how it makes me more money... I don't understand!!!

[Linked Image]

sparkync, UL requirement as of 1-1-03.
Posted By: crlnva Re: New GFCI's - 12/17/02 01:28 AM
A 30% material markup on 12 dollars would be more than the same markup on 6. You make more money, but unless is is required by law i guess it all depends on your sales skills.
Posted By: sparky66wv Re: New GFCI's - 12/17/02 01:50 AM
Let me explain again...

If it is a bid job, and the people accepting or declining the bid already have a price in mind, and I happen to luck out with a figure that falls into this window of operation, then if my materials are cheaper, I make more money. If my materials are more expensive, I make less.

True, a markup of 20% would be more money on the choice between a $1,000,000 item than say a $1 item, but if your bid was only $500,000 your going to lose money buying one and make money buying the other with or without the markup...

(Figures exaggerated for clarity)

Does that help make more sense of what I'm trying to say?

Not to worry, I'll buy 'em and install 'em as always, but I don't see making more money on them on bid jobs.
Posted By: Electricmanscott Re: New GFCI's - 12/17/02 02:02 AM
First I dont think we will have a choice as these will be the only GFCI's to buy. Second when I bid a job I bid it to make money based on my costs and what I estimate the job to be worth. I NEVER EVER price a job with the intent of the price being what they want to pay. I get the same thing from people all the time "Oh that is higher than I thought...." Well what did you think it would cost and where did you get that figure? So the bottom line is I will price a job with the Gfci costing me $11.00 + 20% markup. $13.20 for the customer, profit for me, $2.20 vs $1.36 profit for old gfci. Virgil, you simply can not let the customers tell you what the electrical work is going to cost, this is not how a succesfull business operates.

[This message has been edited by Electricmanscott (edited 12-16-2002).]
Posted By: ga.sparky56 Re: New GFCI's - 12/17/02 02:38 AM
Sparky66,I understand completely. I have to bid apples against oranges so to speak.75% of the people I price jobs to have talked to cousin Vern who once saw someone splice some wire,and Vern says you dont need that.
Posted By: sparky66wv Re: New GFCI's - 12/17/02 03:08 AM
Scott, I see your point.

I guess my perspective is:

Any acceptable bid will be too low, or someone else gets the job. For instance, at the Greenbrier, the Construction management team has a very precise range of acceptance of bids. They've built 50 virtually identical cottages and there'll be 450 more built in the next 10 years. With 15 GFCI receptacles at a moderate $4.00 increase in price, that translates to $60.00 which is two hours of my labor that I have to shave off somewhere. Yes, it is a small amount, less than 1% of the labor of the job, but it does all add up.

The best average per hour I've had on big bid jobs is less than $25, and I shoot for $30. I've had as little as $6 per hour before I had a helper. When this happens, $60 looks like a weeks pay.

But I am trying to break free from this mess by giving everyone the impression that I'm just too busy to mess with anything but profitable work. It's a bluff and a gamble.
Posted By: Electricmanscott Re: New GFCI's - 12/17/02 02:00 PM
Virgil, tough going around there I see. I have been in your shoes. I don't know anything about the economy or demographics of your area but I'll tell you how I handled going from the yuck jobs to the ca$h jobs. I sought out the higher end work. I called businesses (contractors etc) that are known to deal in areas where the money is renovations not new construction. I made myself very available to them and their customers. I have a very nice truck, I wear company shirts, I carry drop cloths, brooms, vacuum, and I am very dependable. This is very impressive to people who are used to tradespeople of a lower caliber. I was so busy at one point I started to go on job interviews because I couldn't handle it anymore. Instead of working for someone else I raised my rates cut ties with the crap work and focused completely on the good stuff. The result, I work many hours, but I also take my fair share of days off. I make more money than ever, and I am less stressed. I stay one man because I want to not because I have to. I do not let inspectors bully me nor do I let contractors do the same, and for this I now have great contacts and mutual respect with the people I deal with. It is good to be the guy nobody can get because I am too busy. People think that means you must be good! Now what was the topic again..........
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