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Posted By: twh The Perfect Electrician - 11/08/09 05:47 AM
I heard a story from an electrician who was finishing a job started by a second electrician. The stucco crew covered an outside receptacle and the customer decided that he didn't want the receptacle, anyway. The first electrician phoned the second electrician for information. The conversation went something like this:

1st: Where is the feed for the plug?
2nd: It's at the panel. I marked all the wires.
1st: Yes, they're all marked, but it isn't there.
2nd: Maybe I fed it from an inside plug.
1st: Which one?
2nd: Try the centre of the East wall.
1st: Okay, got it. By the way, It's code that you can't feed an outside plug from an inside circuit.
2nd: I know. I always use a separate circuit for outside plugs.

Is it possible that electricians who claim perfection have really short memories?
Posted By: HotLine1 Re: The Perfect Electrician - 11/09/09 01:47 AM
TWH:

"1st: Okay, got it. By the way, It's code that you can't feed an outside plug from an inside circuit.
2nd: I know. I always use a separate circuit for outside plugs."

Is not feeding an exterior receptacle, from an interior circuit a Canadian thing?


Posted By: brsele Re: The Perfect Electrician - 11/09/09 05:16 PM
Originally Posted by HotLine1
Is not feeding an exterior receptacle, from an interior circuit a Canadian thing?




It used to be, but was changed in the last code upgrade.

Bruce
Posted By: gfretwell Re: The Perfect Electrician - 11/09/09 07:22 PM
I wondered about that myself. The basement or garage are prime candidates for feeding the outside circuits here, although a good designer would pull a separate circuit.
Posted By: sparkyinak Re: The Perfect Electrician - 11/09/09 11:10 PM
Originally Posted by gfretwell
... although a good designer would pull a separate circuit.


Hey Greg, just carious, just on geneal priniple, why do you think that?
Posted By: HotLine1 Re: The Perfect Electrician - 11/10/09 12:18 AM
Not speaking for Greg, but...
My home has an exterior recept (GFI) on a 20 amp, and I have 2-20 amp (GFI) at the dock. Side area has a GP (GFI) shared with the crawl space circuit.

IMHO, some may say "overkill", but that's how I did it.

Posted By: twh Re: The Perfect Electrician - 11/10/09 12:28 AM
It's a Canadian thing and it's in the 2009 code as Appendix I, Rule 26-724(a). This seems to contradict the wording of the actual rule, but there it is, 'no' means 'yes'.

A separate circuit outdoors is a good idea in the north, and especially in Canada where we use 15 amp circuits for almost everything. We plug in our cars with block heaters and interior warmers.
Posted By: gfretwell Re: The Perfect Electrician - 11/10/09 12:39 AM
The short answer about the outside receptacle is
"Christmas lights". I gave my wife a dedicated 20 and she managed to pop it.
Some of these heavy duty electric lawn tools pull close to 13a and even peak higher under load.
Posted By: renosteinke Re: The Perfect Electrician - 11/10/09 12:47 AM
twh, you've hit the nail on the head: it all comes down to the likely use - and that, alas, is more of a design issue than a code issue.

I think back to the home where I grew up. In that home, the outdoor receptacles (remember the ones at the base of the post light at the end of the drive?) were only rarely used, perhaps for the hedge trimmer, or some holiday lights. Maybe a trouble light as you worked on the car.

Now, fast-forward to the house I wired a few years ago. The patio receptacle has been used as the supply to a pond / waterfall, as well as an 'BBQ center" complete with refrigerator. Holiday lighting has expanded to more lights than a 60's airport needed. Nearly everyone uses an outdoor receptacle as the source of power when they build a shed - and only heaven knows what's inside those sheds. Suddenly, the idea of a dedicated circuit for the outdoor receptacles isn't so silly after all.
Posted By: gfretwell Re: The Perfect Electrician - 11/10/09 01:23 AM
I have an electric smoker that pulls 1650W ... with a 5-15 plug on it.
That is where another 20a circuit went.
It is an outdoor kitchen so I should probably have 2. There is another 20 out there but it is shared with the bathroom light,fan,heat lamp circuit.

I have another, shared with my mini-split for the HVAC service outlet.
The boat lift circuit also picks up the 2 on the south end of the screen cage and another circuit picks up the north end of the screen cage and the shed.
The shop circuit picks up the ones in and outside the pump house.
The design goal was to never be more than 50' from water and power, anywhere in the yard and have enough current available to do what I need to do. There might still be a spot but I am not sure where it would be.
Posted By: brsele Re: The Perfect Electrician - 11/10/09 04:33 AM
Originally Posted by twh
It's a Canadian thing and it's in the 2009 code as Appendix I, Rule 26-724(a). This seems to contradict the wording of the actual rule, but there it is, 'no' means 'yes'.


Unless the actual CEC differs from the Ontario version, I don't see any contradictions. It states quite clearly that all outdoor receptacles have to be on a circuit (or circuits) dedicated for outdoor receptacles.

Bruce
Posted By: twh Re: The Perfect Electrician - 11/10/09 07:12 AM
The clause we are referring to is: "outdoor receptacles readily accessible from ground level and installed in accordance with Rule 26-714(a) shall be supplied from at least one branch circuit dedicated for those outdoor receptacles."

The interpretation is that all additional receptacles are required to be on a dedicated circuit. The effect of that is that even if you have several outdoor receptacles on several dedicated circuits, you still can't take a general use receptacle in the garage and extend it to an outside receptacle.

Not long ago, a couple inspectors agreed that one circuit met code. So, there were at least three of us, and CSA agreed it was sufficiently unclear that they issued an interpretation.

Now that we have this interpretation, we have similar wording for other areas: "At least one branch circuit shall be provided solely for receptacles installed in the laundry room" and "at least one branch circuit shall be provided solely for receptacles in the utility room". Does the same standard apply?

The real reason that I dislike this interpretation is an actual situation. A farmer had a house with a two-car garage attached on the opposite end from the electrical panel. He ran an extension cord from inside the garage to outside the garage because he liked to sit on the sunny side of the garage and he had a bug zapper. He would pay for a gfi plug outside the garage, but didn't want a circuit run on the surface of his house back to the panel.

Given that he had a dedicated cct plug outside the house, a work shop a hundred yards away with a couple dedicated outdoor circuits, and a quonset with receptacles for trucks and tractors almost as close, what is the point of making him run an extension cord through the garage window?




Posted By: brsele Re: The Perfect Electrician - 11/10/09 04:23 PM
I'm not saying that I agree or disagree with the code on this issue. I'm just saying that there shouldn't be any ambiguity in it's interpretation.

You can see in this thread the differences in opinion on whether outside receptacles should be allowed to be branched off of indoor receptacles.

Personally I feel that as a professional electrician, it should be up to me to determine what the best solution should be for any customer in a given situation. If I assess the situation incorrectly, then the buck stops with me and it's my responsibility to rectify the situation.

However you can't legislate common sense and in this society it seems that nobody wants to take responsibility for their own actions, thus we have rules that are based on the assumption that we are all idiots.
Posted By: HotLine1 Re: The Perfect Electrician - 11/11/09 02:52 AM
Gentlemen:

Please be aware of one important thing in this thread....

The OP is from Canada!
Some of the comments within are from guys that are 'stateside'.

Here in the US, there is no NEC requirement that the exterior receptacle be on a dedicated circuit, and/or not tapped from an interior circuit. We prohibit tapping it from the SA circuits in a kitchen, and bathroom.

I refer this as a design issue, and not a code issue.

And, I have to agree, even here in the US, common sense cannot be legislated.

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