After spending time at ECN, I've come to respect electricians for the different ways that they fit into the industry.
I see residential electricians being about speed, knowledge of the first 4 chapters of the code, and 680. Residential is, too me the toughest market. Skill in trim out, and making it all look "perfect" is important. Customer relations better be high on his list as well. Project scheduling and management will make or brake them.
I see commercial electricians needing to have not as much speed as residential, but more than industrial electricians. They have to have skill in some skill in bending conduit, but for the most part, their conduit work is concealed, so it tends to not be as "pretty" as industrial. Knowledge of the first 4 chapters of the code is a must. Chapters 5, 6 and 7 from time to time.
Project management and scheduling are critical, but suppliers tend to cater to commercial guys so their material is usually delivered to the site which helps relieve some of the logistical problems. Market is not as tight as resi, but make a few mistakes, leave out some big ticket items, and Chapter 11 is not far away.
Industrial and maintenance I would put together. Speed is not as important, and knowledge of the code probably not as important because industrial evironments are usually overloaded with EE's which direct personnel in the installation rather than the electrician looking up the rules in the code. IMHO the industrial electrician has to know the equipment and machinery that he works on. With the PLC being King in today's industry, he will never quit going to school.
I've always wanted to brake off into the industrial side. I've done industrial construction, but I've never worked for a plant, and it's something I've always wanted to do. A friend of mine has worked several industrial/maintenance jobs, and as far as I'm concerned he is one the best electricians I've ever met.
I've always felt like he, and others like him were the ultimate electricians. Though my knowledge of the code is greater than his, his over all knowledge of the industry is so far superior to mine, I sometimes can't believe that he is one man.
This thread is an example of what I mean. Notice the post that maintenanceguy made. I'm telling you, he knew what he was talking about.
Others please comment, and I will post more later.

Super electro?,
Doc

Watt Doctor,
I would beg to differ on your point about speed of work not being important, with regard to Industrial work.
I do quite a bit of Industrial installation,
maintenance and also Breakdown work, it is a think on your feet kind of thing, when a part of a plant is broken down, it has to be fixed, Yesterday, no questions.

I think what Watt Doc meant is that speed is more crucial to our profit. When I was working Industrial, Safety was foremost. Take your time and don't get hurt.

Heck, I remember one week just running 100 ft. of 1/2" PVC Coated GRC. A WEEK!

And no one said a word about it!!!!



Well, it was hard to get to...

A sparky taking a week to run 100' of anything in residential would be burned at the stake!



But, yes, the foreman where I worked, Todd H., was amazing. I've often hoped he would discover ECN! He'd like it here...

[This message has been edited by sparky66wv (edited 12-10-2002).]

Hmmm....interesting topic!

I don't know if I have an answer to this one, but I have a little insight.

A lot of people claim that Buddy Rich was the "ultimate drummer." He could play anything....jazz, rock, fusion, funk, you name it, he could play it, and at blinding speed.

A lot of electricians are the same way, they can do anything you throw at them. Resi, comm, industrial, maybe even a little high voltage. And they can do it with blinding speed!

Personally, I don't see the ultimate as someone who can do it all. An "ultimate electrician" is a person who gets the job done right, takes pride in their work, and never stops learning.

It doesn't matter if you are an apprentice who just replaced his first switch in someone's home, or if they are the general foreman overseeing hundreds of electricians wiring a new automotive plant.

At the end of the day, we all have the same responsibilty to society, to ensure the safe distribution of electricity. An Ultimate Electrician can rise to that challenge every day!

Always learning,
Peter

Nikola Tesla. The ultimate electrician.

I can dig it Trumpy. Let me rephrase it. The pace is "different". I don't think it can be argued that the pace is not different, and wv66 gives a good example of what I'm talking about. Let me further add that many times in maintenance/industrial situations there is "down time", and as a rule times where productivity seems to come to a halt. An example would be building scafolding to get to areas that aren't normally worked in. How about the "travel time" that it takes to get from the ground to 75' in the air in a man lift? In industrial there are so many things that must be done in order for productivity to even begin. Does that make sense?
Residential and commercial electros normally don't have to deal with those kinds of problems. The residential electro had better "hit the ground running" from the word go in the morning, and not stop 'til quitting time. If he isn't nailing on a box, he had better be drilling a hole in a stud to pull NM cable through because the market is so "tight".
Let me make my original point more clear. After reading my own post, I think I should add to it.
In my own career, I feel like I'm weak on the "control side". If someone's A/C is broken, or Mrs. Jones' door bell doesn't work, I can go "play" with it for a while until I figure out what is wrong. I've done some controls, but I'm talking about large magnetic relay control cabinets, and PLC's. And perhaps it's because my knowledge is limited in this area, I stand back and say, "Man, I wish that I had that guy's knowledge." So to me, as I said above, those guys are the "ultimate electricians".
But, that's my opinion.
So what I'm asking is.....what is everyone else's idea of the "ultimate electrician".
I'm not trying to say that one type of electrician is better than another, or that anyone is a "second class citizen". Most people in the electrical industry have done more than "just" wire houses, or "just" commercial work. Most of us have done a little everything.
So, in your opinion, who is the ultimate electrician?

Ultimately,
Doc

I think a well rounded electrician is one of the best. One who is encouraged and willing to learn new things and adapt to them. It's not fair if one electrician is good with one aspect of the field and anothers stronger point my be elsewhere. It all depends on where you've been, what you've done and research on your own time. So I guess an excellent electrician would IMHO be someone who never stops learning.

Watt Doc,
This is not an answer to your question, but I have to get on my soap box. There is a big difference between some one who installs electrical power and someone who repairs machinery. 7 years ago I hired a damn good journeyman electrician. He can bend conduit second to none. However since that is what he had been trained on his trouble shooting skills were, well let's just say lacking. Within a year he was what I would call a maintenance man, not only an electrician. One thing that I taught him was hydraulics. He had never had to work on any hydraulic systems before so he did not know it. I told him that it is logical just like electricity. The pressure is just like voltage and the oil flow is just like amps. Also if a machine is down you do not start in the middle of the control panel. Check for voltage at the disconnect, if there is voltage then move on to the next part of the panel.

Sorry if I have run on, I just wanted to put in my say.

Ultimate electrician, hard to say. Like you have pointed out there are two sets of standards, residential and commercial. I would say the ultimate electrician is one who knows a little bit of everything. And if he doesn't know is not afraid to ask. Also one who knows where to look it up in the NEC. Like Einstein said, I don't know what my phone number is but I know where to look it up.

He also has to take pride in his work. Very important.

I will know step down from my soap box and get back to work.
Scott

Nuttt, I'm still looking for something more specific.
Say I get to the point that I am that "well rounded" electrician. Where do I go from there? In my mind, there has to be a progression.
Let me use Scott as an example.

In my mind, there was a sequence of events that took place in the quote from Scott. This electrician had a background in installation. Then after a year he "progressed" to become what our beloved Scott calls a maintenance man. No matter what you call him, I think that man obtained skills that many in the industry don't have.
So, let me put another twist on it. I think the ultimate electrician may have served in the military in a technical position. Upon discharge he either went to a trade school for 4 years, or went to a junior college for 2 years. After he "turned out" and got his license, he continued to go to school at night. He may have studied and obtained his master's license, or branched off into instrumentation. After around 10 to 12 years of construction experience he gets a chance to work for a manufacturing facility that pays very well, and has great benefits. While he's there he learns PLC's, and how to work on "freq drives", etc. With around 5 to 10 years of experience in this part of the industry, I'm saying that this guy has got to be in the top few percent of electricians.
Does the ultimate electrician take another route, and become a business owner?
The above is just my opinion. I'm looking for specific "ideas" about the ultimate electrician.

Regards,
Doc

"Like Einstein said, I don't know what my phone number is but I know where to look it up." Love it!!!


"ultimate electrician" -one who knows his/her limitations.

I have in my years been exposed to alot of different areas of electricity. Started out doing resi work as a helper.Moved onto industrial work for a few years and then spent time doing a mix a of resi, industrial, and commercial work. Last 13 years I've worked for a plumbing/HVAC firm. I have learned quite a bit about control wiring involving boilers, chillers, HVAC units. This kind of work gets me in contact with most of the areas electricians, when I get on "their" jobs. I get to see how other guys do their work and I'm sad to say it usually isn"t pretty. Doesn't seem like most take pride in their work and the bottom line is all important. Actually had one guy feed his rooftop recepticals from one of our AC units control transformer(before the fuse).Our tech guy plugged his vaccuum pump in it and was takeing lunch and looked up on the roof to see smoke rolling out of the unit.One krispy control transformer!He was trying to save some money by not running his circuit down to the panel. Ah sorry got off track there. I can find myself converting a 110 volt jet pump to a 220 volt submersible pump (like today) or wiring up some VFD's for hot water circulation (like tomorrow) or hooking up the latest DDC controls for building management. I find the diversity of work to be the thing I like the most. Does this make me the ultimate electrician?


NO way!!!!

I think the ultimate electrician has to understand all the theory and get his hands "dirty" every day and be involved in all aspects of the job.


long winded,

Glenn

I can dig it, Glenn. He has to understand all theory. Now, in your opinion, besides getting his hands dirty every day. In your opinion, what are some other specific traits (experience, education, knowledge, etc) that that your "idea" of the ultimate electrician has.


Keep it coming,
Doc

I like Peter's look at this.

We are all specialized due to circumstance,ie, work in maintenance, (because the plant is there) residential, (due to our area) industrial, (due to our local) commercial (due to the company we work for not having any other work for us)

We all have a choice to be well rounded, (knowledged) or just be two wire electricians, the ones who choose to remain the latter, would be the same in any trade.

To judge "anyone" in any other format or standard (such as, is any part of the electrical industry above another) is wrong.

Roger

Doc,
Sorry about the mis-understanding,
I see your point now.
But I do agree with Peter(CTwireman), with his comments on "taking pride in your work and never stopping learning".
A high level of workmanship is one thing that I would try to instill in every apprentice that works with me, as, as a Tradesman, this is what you are measured by,
you don't gain much respect, by doing quick, rough work and nothing looks worse than shoddy installation work.
Keeping up with the latest technology, is also the mark of a true professional, we have "Electricians", over here that are still figuring out how to wire a light-dimmer
into a 2-way circuit.

Roger,


I hope you'll see from my second post, and I'll quote myself, that my intent is not to judge.


Humbly,
Doc

I think the ultimate electrician is one who is allways willing to learn new things, does all his work with pride each and everytime, follows codes and saftey practices, and is willing to mentor others to do the same.

I have worked in factories ever since highschool (1991). I have allways been interested in electricity and maint since i was a kid and tried to rewire my dads barn. I worked in maintenance for about 3 years doing trouble shooting and repair. thats when i decided to go back to school and get an education (associate degree in Industrial electrical maintenance). Since then i have learned alot in the field by way of on the job training and troubleshooting. I feel i am strong electricaly in troubleshooting and wiring as well as in plc troubleshooting. As well as hydraulics and pneumatic systems. I continue to take classes for some things that i can get the company to pay for and pick the brains of the older guys as well as visit this forum and others to read and learn. I don't feel i am the ultimate electrician because i still feel i have alot to learn but i do know i am a heck of a maintenance man and allways up for a new challenge.

It sounds to me like the "ultimate electrician" status is something that is not obtainable. Because as jlhmaint says...


The "spirit" of many of the other posts have been along the same "theme". It seems to be the guy "who is always willing to learn". I guess I'm looking for someone who has already obtained a "body of knowledge", and in my mind "that person" is the "control expert". Perhaps it's that "grass is always greener" type deal for me. Though I know many things about controls, and am willing to learn more about them, circumstances in my career, decisions that I've made, etc. have prevented me from increasing my scope of knowledge in this area.
So, let me word it another way. Is there someone you know, that if you could, you would model your career after? Is it our own Joe Tedesco? Would it be Mike Holt? One would be hard pressed to deny that both these men have obtained a "high level" in our industry.
For me the ultimate electrician is a guy named Gary S. If this thread continues to grow, I will post more about why, in my mind, Gary S. is the "ultimate electrician".

Regards,
Doc

Doc, I didn't mean for my post to sound like it was aimed at you. Reading it now,I see that it does look that way, and I appologize. I know you to well to think you would throw something like that out here.

I was taking Peters post and expanding on it with my own feelings.

Roger

An ultimate electrician is for whom something new comes along, he considers it a challenge not a shun.

And gets it done.



[This message has been edited by Wirenuttt (edited 12-11-2002).]

Watt Doctor;
I am an electrical contractor. I don't consider myself the best in my field, yet I do hold my own. I do commercial, residential, industrial, and PLC programming. My guys that work for me, look up to me. Not that I am the smartest electrician that they have ever met, but because I treat each problem that we encounter as a new learning experience. I try to teach each of my guys everything that I have learned in the 24 years that I have been doing electrical work. Customer relations have been the hardest for them to learn. Every time a customer has an electrical problem, they are scared. I let the customer know that they have nothing to fear, anything can be fixed. Most people (not including electricians) are afraid of electricity.
But the best advice that I have ever had since I opened my business was from my mother. I quote " treat each customer as you would your own mother. Give them the same respect and service you would give me and you will go far in your profession." Because of this, I retain about 90% repeat business. A good electrician not only knows his trade, but also his customers!

I have always felt that someone who is not afraid to tell me "Scott I do not know" is more valuable to me than someone who will try to BS me. If you tell me you do not know the we can try and work it out together. If you BS me, it will not be done right. There is a saying that goes something like, there is never enough time to do it right, but there is always enough time to do it again.
Scott

Thanks Roger.
To all, thanks for your replies. I would like to continue this more later, but for now, I'm going to bed.

Move over Watt Mama,
Doc

I thought I would post why, IMO, Gary S. is the "ultimate electrician".
Some 7 or 8 years ago, I worked for a small commercial EC here in Houston. When I say small, I mean we had 4 electricians, and I was one of the 2 apprentices that we had.
Gary S. was one of the electricians. We did have an idustrial account with a salt mine not far outside of Houston. Gary S. spent most of his time at the salt mine. This particular mine was an "injection" mine, which means that instead of digging the salt out of the ground, they injected water onto the salt dome, pulled the "salt water" out, and evaporated the H2O off to come up with salt.
We've all seen the cardboard cans of salt that the store sells. This mine had a "can line" that had caught fire, and burned to the ground. Gary S. became heavily involved in the rebuild of the can line.
He, along with a mechanical engineer, designed the entire line. I don't know where they started in the design process, but some of the equipment that was installed had never been built before.
They determined how much load the can line would carry, sized all the feeders, switchgear, branch circuits, designed all the conveyors with freq drives, and determined what kind of PLC's would be needed to run the entire line. When the company wouldn't go out and spend money for a DC power supply needed for part of the controls, Gary S. got them to buy the components, and he built the power supply from scratch. He took part in programing the PLC's.
Then, we wired it all, and made it run. Much of the hardware, and brackets we fabricated out of stainless steel.
So, now, basically they feed cardboard into one end of this production line. The cardboard is rolled into tubes, and cut. The cut tubes are stood up, and a bottom is glued on. Then it is filled with salt. A top is put on, and it is labeled. It is then put into boxes of 24, and paletized.
I remember not long after we finished the can line, I met him out at a customer's house where we spent the day doing a service change.
Gary S. can do it "all". He never told me how involved he was in the design of that production line. I was told by someone else.
I could tell you another story about 64 parallel RMC's that he, and another guy ran. Concentric bends....the works....but that, as they say, "Is another story."


Regards,
Doc

Purely from the outside looking in, my concept of the ultimate electrician is one who:
- Provides a safe electrical service that fills the needs of the user/customer
- Can communicate well enough to listen carefully to assess the needs mentioned above as well as convey back to the user/customer how the end deliverable will meet that need or how they would propose options to meet that need (or if they read minds or can forecast the future, meet potential future needs without coming off like they are gold-plating the deliverable)
- Performs work safely and provides a nicely finished deliverable that demonstrates both subject matter knowledge and self-respect in a timely manner (code compliant, functioning properly and cleaned up after themselves)
- Provides all of the above at a fair and reasonable price.

It is a bonus to find that an electrician (or any other trade or craft) goes the extra mile or has designed the job at a higher level of expertise than the bare minimum without attempting to over-deliver on the intended solution. It speaks volumes about character and a concern for delivering the highest quality one can which speaks even more volumes about character and integrity.

what's that old Boy Scout creedo?


it's been a while......