great site i'am from winnipeg ,manitoba,canada
i have heard the term master electrician but i'am not sure what it means .i'am a jouneryman of 16 years and have held a contractors license for 14 of those 16 years.
thanks in advance.

Master probably means differant things in various areas.

Here in the Mountain State, it allows you to work without supervision, not that that stops journeymen from working on their own. It also means that you can do design work, whatever that is.

Basically, electricians licenses in WV are about worthless.

At the other extreme, and off the subject, Florida does not require an electrician to be licensed. But if you are a Beautician, you need 1200 hours of training & have to pass a test. Go figure.

Tom

Glen
Did myou look at the Electrican Classification topic started by Redsy?

Chris

Tom,
IF a permit is pulled for the job it has to be pulled by a licensed contractor(licensed master electrican).The license may be issued at the state level or the county level.
The work done on the job site has to be supervised by a master electrican and is monitored by code enforcement in that geographical area.
Take a look at the electrical license requirements for Florida that I wrote about
in the topic "Electrician classification" started by Redsy.

Chris

Chris,

If Florida is anything like WV, there are some folks advertising "No Pass, No Pay" tutoring for the exams. Passing a test means that you know how to pass a test.

Even though I poked fun at Florida's electrician licensing, I've pretty much come to the conclusion that licenses, in their present form, are not all that important, except as a fund raiser for the government. (I can just see my high school English teacher attacking the previous sentence with her red pencil)

Sure wish I new how to keep the unqualified from practising our trade.

Tom

Oh, God... Don't get me started on this one...

Tom,
Which category do you put me in? Worthy (of my license) or not?

I guess I'm asking for it...

Here in Houston every contractor must have a Master Electrician in full time employment. Every permit that is "pulled" in the city, is "pulled" by a Master Electrician. In order for an apprentice to be able to take the Journeyman's test in Houston he must complete 8000 hrs of on the job training, and have a letter signed by a Master Electrician. A Master Electrician oversee's all the projects for the contractor, and he or she can do limited design work. The afore mentioned items are just a few things that a Master Electrician does in Houston.

What a Master Electrician is, is defined by the AHJ. I can tell you that a Houston Master carries a lot of respect in Texas, and I think the fact that there are less than 700 of us is a testimony as to how hard it is become a Master Electrician in this jurisdiction. I contrast that against Dallas which has something like 5000 Masters.

I'm proud of the fact that I am a Master, and at the same time I'm humbled at the fact that I'm counted among such a small group of people.

Respectfully,
Slam HMEL #688

Hey Glen,

Good question!
(I'm not sure what journeyman means)
I'm still trying to figure out what everything means too! Here on Long Island (New York) there is 2 types of Electrical licenses. 1 is a Restricted Electrical which would cover work within equipment such as for Air conditioning and boiler work. The other is the Master, which has no limitationsat all. This would cover all voltages and conditions.

In some areas I have heard there are different classifications that go according to Voltage I think.

glen,

If it's not too much trouble perhaps you can give us some comments from time to time on differences between codes? Or tell us they way you guys do it or don't do it up there? Many of us are curious about similarities and differences between our codes. I think they'd give you some encouragement in this area.

Anyway, Welcome to the Forum!


Bill

I say the karate belt system would do us better!

welcome to the dojo Glen

( all bow)

In the greater Phila., Bucks Co. area you can become a Journeyman Electrician by attending a State-approved 4yr (576 hr. calssroom theory, 2,000 hr.on tne job experience) these are available for open-shop employers and, of course through the trade unions. Contractor licensing requirements are determined at the local levels. This could mean taking an exam or simply filling out a form. Question-- do other training programs provide hands-on classroom training, or do they also provide theory only with the hands-on coming from OJT?.

Here are the requirements in the land of 10,000 lakes, 50 kazillion mosquitoes, and even more required licenses.

Matt

Electrician's Licenses

To do electrical work in Minnesota you need to be licensed by the State Board of Electricity.

The Board issues four types of contractor licenses – Class A Electrical, Class B Electrical Elevator, and alarm and communication. It also issues eight types of electrician licenses. Let's look first at the contractor licenses. To get either contractor license you must post a contractor's bond for $5,000. You must also have general liability insurance for $100,000 per occurrence, $300,000 aggregate, and property damage insurance for $300,000 per occurrence, $300,000 aggregate. There are no experience requirements for contractor licenses.

You don't have to pass an exam to get an electrical contractor license but you must either be a licensed master electrician or employ a licensed master electrician who will be responsible for all the electrical work your company does.

Requirements for Master electrician's license

A. Class A master electrician (60 months required):

(1) planning for the installation of wiring, apparatus, and equipment for light, heat, and power: minimum experience of two months, maximum credit allowance of 12 months;

(2) laying out for the installation of wiring, apparatus, and equipment for light, heat, and power: minimum experience of two months, maximum credit allowance of 12 months;

(3) supervising the installation of wiring, apparatus, and equipment for light, heat, and power: minimum experience of two months, maximum credit allowance of 12 months;

(4) wiring for and installing electrical wiring, apparatus, and equipment: minimum experience of 12 months, maximum credit allowance of 48 months;

(5) maintaining and repairing electrical wiring, apparatus, and equipment: minimum experience of zero months, maximum credit allowance of 24 months;

(6) line work: minimum experience of zero months, maximum credit allowance of three months;

(7) installing elevators: minimum experience of zero months, maximum credit allowance of six months;

(8) laying out and installing wiring, apparatus, and equipment for home appliances: minimum experience of zero months, maximum credit allowance of three months; and

(9) wiring and maintaining electronic controls: minimum experience of zero months, maximum credit allowance of three months.

Electrician's exam license fee: The exam you have to pass to get an electrician license will be on licensing laws, the current National Electrical Code, and electrical theory. It will cost you $35 to take an exam. A license is good for two years.

The Board has reciprocal agreements with Nebraska, North Dakota, and South Dakota for both master and journeyman licenses. If you've received a license by examination in one of these states and held it for one year or more, you can get a reciprocal license in Minnesota. You'll have to pay an application fee and license fee to receive your reciprocal license.

Minnesota, as well as several other states require continuing education in order to renew your license(s). Here are the requirements.

3800.3602 REQUIREMENTS FOR RENEWAL OF ELECTRICIAN LICENSE.

Subpart 1. License renewal. The board shall not renew the electrician license of an applicant for renewal who has held the license for at least 24 months after the effective date of this part unless the applicant has credit for the hours of instruction required by this part.

Subp. 2. Hours of instruction. Within the 24 months preceding the expiration of an electrician license, each holder of a license shall receive credit for 16 hours of instruction through one or more educational programs. Credit shall be allowed only once for any educational program in any 24 month period. Where a licensee holds more than one type of electrician license, the same credits for hours of instruction may be applied to each license.

Washington state is identical to Minnesota's
master electrician qaulifications/duties. Which may explain why Minnesota and Washington have a reciprocal agreement.

'66,

What does worthy have to do with it?

You're either doing good work or you're not. The license seems to have no relation to the quality of workmanship & the level of code compliance (this statement only applies to WV).

I remember inspecting 4 services for a master (grandfathered, don't you know)electrician (thank God he does not work in the trade any more, just on his own rental properties). None of the services passed the first try. All required extensive re-work. He missed things a 2nd year apprentice would know about. Finally, he quit using my services because I was too tough. I can think of 3 homeowners within a 5 minute ride of my house who can do a better job then that "master" & they don't even have an apprentice license.

Judging by the questions you ask & the statements you make, you're a pretty fair hand. At least you know what the questions should be, many in the trade in WV can't even get that far.

Enough of this screed. my blood pressure is going up.

Tom

I never really thought about the term "Master Electrician" having so many different meanings throughout the country. To some, it really doesn't mean much. In other parts of the country, a Master, and a Journeyman are about equal in knoweldge. As I said in my earlier post, others hold Master Electricians in very high esteem.

I think it all comes down to the individual. The person who walks on the job, and can
complete the installation in a timely manner for a fair price (not the cheapest price) will eventually "rise to the top", and be respected in the industry. I think that being respected amoung our peers is far more important that the name stamped on our license.

Tex,

That's about a good a definition as you could make up. I think you're correct, recognition by your peers (unless you're peerless) means a lot more than the piece of paper in your wallet.

Tom

Tom...
Sorry if I sounded defensive...

I figure one is either worthy of the Master rating, or not...

Personally, I busted my tail to pass the test. Took me three times, and on the third I ended up taking "one of those classes". Here's where the story really gets interesting... Ends up, the test had changed to reflect the 99 code, and the "teacher" was totally unprepared. He admitted to not being an electrician, not knowing what to tell us as far as preparing us for the test, and did not offer to give us a refund. So, with the help of a British engineer who was there to get his temporary ticket so he could preform his work at DuPont, I basically taught the class. It was completely to my surprise that I finally passed it.

I guess I'm trying to say that I feel I've earned the WV Masters rating, even if I may not qualify as a Master in any other place in the world. I'm achieving my dream of being a contractor, something I've wanted for 10 years. But, sometimes I worry that I'm not qualified... I cannot be my own judge.

Thanks for the words of encouragement...

-Virgil

[This message has been edited by sparky66wv (edited 05-22-2001).]

I doubt the 'unqualified' would care to hang with the crew we have here

Here in Indiana, we don't have a state license. I was "grandfathered" in my local town from when your reputation and $35.00 got you licensed. I had worked for my dad, a couple of old, established electrical contractors and then for my father-in-law before obtaining my own local license. Then about 6 years ago the town passed an ordinance that required all new applicants to pass the Block Master Exam with a score of 85 or better in order to obtain an electrical contractor's license. You could still take a 50 question test and get a limited "Residential Wireman's License". I was grandfathered in and didn't have to take the Block test but wanted to anyway so I could say I did. Besides, other towns wouldn't reciprocate unless you had the Block Master's test on your resume. I ordered the Master's test prep book set from Tom Henry and studied religously for 3 months before taking the test. I passed it on my first attempt with a 89. I was the first one in my town to pass it and am still the only one to pass it on the first try.
I have to admit that while I knew my trade very well, I learned a lot about the NEC and how to use it through the Tom Henry materials. Now when an inspector questions something or makes an off the wall requirement I know exactly where to go in the code book to make my case on the matter.
Passing the Block Master's Exam is no small feat, but it doesn't mean you're an all-knowing electrical guru either. For me, the biggest benefit was fueling a desire to learn more and understand better everything about the trade. One of my "old electrician" mentors once told me that the stupidest man is the one who thinks he's reached the pinnacle of knowledge. He also told me not to worry about learning the tricks of the trade, just learn the trade. I was blessed to have had him to work under.

While we are breaing our souls, allow me. I have been an E&I(elc.& instrument)Tech in a chemical research plant since 1984.Mostly OJT and local trade school evening classes. I passed the Phila. elect contractors exam in 1990 and started a side business in hopes of making it rich?!!. After 2 years I gave it up for the security of my day job. Fast fwd 2000, company for sale for 3rd time in 5 years. Bought a truck and decided this time it's for real. Maintenance vs. contracting are 2 different animals and this forum has been very helpful. Thanks, all! Funny thing is, last year I convinced my company to enter into an apprenticeship agreement with PA, and began more evening classes to recieve a journeyman card. I'm actually going to school that I may not finish for a credential that I don't really need.

Here in North Carolina, we have 3 classifications in addition to residential only, swimming pool and low volt.
The classifications are:
1. Limited..Up to 25,000. per job and 600 volts or less.
2. Intermediate..Up to 75,000. per job
3. Unlimited..No limit

Each classification requires its own test and has its own standards for experience and apprenticeship.

I have worked with and for many 'masters' who , once gaining their ticket, have simply lost their code book.
Likewise, i have worked with many a hot apprentice, which can really be an opportune learning experience for both parties.

My point is, either your into what you do or not, all paper in your wallet aside.

I have known many individuals who have made up for lack of aptitude with attitude, these are the people that eat,sleep,talk, walk what they do.
They do well because they simply LIKE what they do.

What is a Master Electrician?
Here in Toronto, Ontario, some municipal by-laws dictate that all electrical contracting companies require a Master Electrician. In the by-laws of some provincial municipalities, it may be defined in the following manner: "Master Electrician" means a person who is skilled in the planning, superintending, and installing of wires, conduits, apparatus, fixtures or appliances for the carrying on or using of electricity for light, heat or power purposes, who is familiar with the laws, rules and regulations governing same, who has a regular place of business in the municipal area and who him/herself, or by qualified electricians in his/her employ, performs electrical work.

Qualifications of a Master Electrician
In order to obtain a Master Electrician Qualification, a person must possess a valid Ontario Ministry of Education and Training "Certificate of Qualification" plus have passed the "Master Electrician Examination". The electrical "Certificate of Qualification" is usually obtained by completing the Ontario apprenticeship program and passing the subsequent examination.

Does anybody know if the Block and Associates Master examination reciprocates with any other Examining Board?

Frank (cinkerf)

Virgil,

The company I work for when I do inspections is looking for inspectors in areas that they don't cover right now. If you're interested, E-mail me & I'll tell you who to get in touch with. They have the study guides available for you to use.

I make the disparaging comments about licensing in WV because it was bungled for so long. Maybe now that we finally have a new State Fire Marshall, things will change for the better, though I seriously doubt it. Remember, your $50 a year goes towards buying new cars & other things for the Fire Marshall, very little goes towards enforcement.

By the way, we almost had a state law requireing that electrical inspectors hold a masters license and pass a test. Imagine that, a grandfatheed master electrician who is currently doing inspections could have become a grandfathered inspector. Our governor wisely (inside joke) vetoed it.

Keep up the good work.

Tom

Iam from PA and I understand there is no state wide requirement to be licensed to perform electrical work. I have been a industrial electrician for 12 years. Is there anyone who knows if there is a state wide license in PA, either required or not, that I could get information on? I would like to have some kind of certification, so I can at lease say I have it. Also, what good is a license if all it really tests is your ability to read the NEC in a open book forum?

Hi habbbby,
welcome!
If your state does no certification testing you could always take an IAEI test. This is a respectable cert in the electrical world.

Habbbby,
Welcome.
Some of the cities and larger towns in PA have tests for electrical licenses. Others simply have a form to fill out. Those that require a test will usually honor a license from another area that requires a test.(Newtown honors Phila.)I dont know where you live, but in Lower Bucks Co. a Phila. license is probably your best bet. Also, does your company offer a state approved apprenticeship program? Completing this will get you a Journeymans card, which is another worthwhile credential.

slam tex, I too am from spring texas,work for a contractor in conroe.Ive taken and passed my sbcci master exam and am considering taking houston master.Heard it was a real b*^%h!Any word on whether Houston will ever go sbcci?Seems they and San Antonio are the only major cities left that havent.

No, there is no apprentice program at my company. I wouldn't go through a apprenticship anyway at this point. What does it take exactly for a Journeymans License? An apprenticship? Wouldn't industrial experience with some residental experience be recognized? And sparky, what is a IAEI? And what bureacratic agency must I seek to get info on it? Study guides?

habbbby,

Welcome!
IAEI stands for International Association of Electrical Inspectors. You don't have to be an Inspector to be a Member. Many of us here are members. Dues are about $50 per year.
http://www.iaei.com/


Bill

habbbby,

I'm from Pennsylvania. I believe most Cities and Townships require a license to perform electrical work. In Pittsburgh, legal proof of work experience under a Certified Contractor is required before you can sit for the written examination. If you pass the examination the license renewal fee is $190.00 per year.

Frank (cinkerf)

Manual "Kill" of this message.

SET



[This message has been edited by Scott35 (edited 05-29-2001).]

Habbbby,
In PA, it is a Journeymans CARD not really a license. It is issued by the state. Most apprenticeship programs will allow you advanced placement in the educational part by taking tests(you may only need one or two years of evening class, instead of four). The state will give you credit for previous work history for up to 6400 of the 8000 hrs. required, if you can document the experience.I know this sounds extreme, but if you really want the credential, you might get a job with a company that has a program.I actually convinced my company to start a program. It requires minimal effort on the companys part.Just sign a few papers and agree to a structured pay scale of their own choosing.

I guess Iam confused, I worked with some electricians from the local about 3 years ago. They liked my work and knowledge at the industrial level and the company they were working for asked me if I wanted a job. We talked about what was required and the local union guys told me that the apprenticeship program was by the way side and that with my knowledge and ability I would be a shoe in. I asked about testing and they said all I would have to do was take a test on the NEC which was open book. What would they have been talking about if it wasn't a journeymans card? By the way, this was a Harrisburg local.

Hmmm.... Ok That a hint Mr. Moderator?

habbbby,

Don't read anything into that remark.

Bill

habbbby,

Sorry about that message - it was not meant to be insulting to anyone at all.

What I was refering to is mostly leaned towards the tech theory stuff mentioned at times, plus the way threads can end up going into a humorous, somewhat non-related level with "inside jokes" being mentioned a lot.

If I have offended anyone, please accept my appology.

The message was in bad taste, so I will delete it right after posting this one.

Scott

Scott,

I'm sure that those of us that know you did not take your comment to mean anything in a bad way towards anyone.

Bill

Thats cool by me, and thanks for easing my thoughts. Although, I did read into it a little and well there is some truth on my part in that statement. I have been a industrial electrician for 12 years or so. Residential contracting isnt my speciality but am interested in electricty period. And would love to know half of what the vet. resid. guys here know. No offense taken and thanks for the kind response. Just a steady learner here. Thanks

I'm not sure about when it will become SBCCI, but I'm sure that it will eventually. I wish that I could say that it won't happen, but we are one of the few left that aren't SBCCI. I did hear that it failed to pass that State Legislature this time.

I've been reading this thread with interest. This whole topic is very interesting to me as it shows the differences in requirements for electricians and electrical work in different areas, and also the attitudes of electricians in regards to their trade. I feel I am very different from most of the guys I work with, but more similar to those people here and on other "electrical" forums, because of outlook and attitude. I am genuinely interested in electricity, how it works, and how to become a better electrician. Most of the guys I work with wouldn't dream of looking at a code book or trade magazine in off hours. I read 2 or 3 forums regularly(this one, Mike Holt's, and the IAEI's) and also a number of reference books, just because I'm interested. I like to gain knowledge and hopefully put it to use in the field, whether it's theory or practical--installing equipment, troubleshooting, whatever.

I started as an electrician 10 years ago, in my late 20s. I went through a non-union apprenticeship, with classes and recorded OJT, for 4 years. I never got any card or anything, but I learned a lot of basic stuff. Last year I had an opportunity to join the IBEW here in PA. I went in as a 4th year apprentice, and was able to complete the 4th year in only a short time by doubling up on homework, tests, class hours, etc. Then I went through 5th year and just finished last month. So now I'm officially a Journeyman Wireman.

Part of our class included taking a master electrician exam in our city. Our class spent extra hours each week in special classes for exam prep, which included theory, NEC and calculations. As we neared the date for the exam, we found out that our applications had been sent in too late and we couldn't take the test as planned. So instead we took a different "master's exam" in a nearby rural town. This was a much easier and shorter test than the original one, which may have been a Block test, I'm not sure. Anyways, I got a 96, and if I had paid all the applicable fees and had proof of insurance, I would hold a license and be able to contract for electrical work on my own. But I'm not interested in that, I was just taking the test because "it was there" and I had studied hard for it. I already work for a large commercial contractor, my intention isn't to have my own business. I don't need the license to work as an electrician in PA, and as a union Journeyman I'm making decent money.

This fall I'm going to take the city Masters test, again not because I want to be a contractor, or that I need the certification, but because the union said they'd pay for it and I think it's a good opportunity. Maybe I can use it in the future. I was all studied up for it this spring, so I think with a little review I can get back in shape for it pretty easily.

I'm trying to remember what my point was originally in writing this post-I was commenting on people's various backgrounds, the various local requirements, how people look at all this. Like the guy who said that the Houston license carries a lot of respect. And the guy who's taking classes but might not need the certification after all. Personally, I just like all this stuff. I'm interested in being the best electrician I can be. To suggest to my co-workers that they learn how to find something in the NEC, or to even to mention that I was looking up something myself-both bring responses of confusion and incredulity. "Why would you do that?" "Do you get overtime for that?" The idea that anyone would read this kind of stuff on the internet-I've never even brought that up! Why look up stuff about electrical, when you could be looking up porn? But anyways, I'm encouraged when I see forums like this, to remind me that there are still people out there that share this interest, that have high standards, that believe in a so-called "lifetime of learning" (we learned that in our classes-most people scoffed at that one!) and want to help others understand things as well.

To get back to the license thing, because there were some PA folks on this thread-I think that in PA there is NO state licensing, only by municipality-township, borough, city, whatever. A contractor must either be licensed or employ a licensed master electrician. Other electricians employed by that contractor work under that license as well, and don't have to hold their own licenses. In most places, a "Journeyman's" license from your town doesn't do much for you. Of course all contractors are different, but I think that with non-union shops a journeyman license holder will not necessarily get much more pay by virtue of having that certificate. A union Journeyman is guaranteed a certain minimum pay rate depending on their local's contract, and it is usually much higher than what the nonunion electricians will get. So from that perspective, it would seem that becoming a union journeyman is a good opportunity-that the certification has some concrete results.

Please excuse my rambling, I appreciate the opportunity to communicate with other electricians who could be interested any exchange of ideas.

CRW,

Nice, thoughtful post. You sound like our type of people. Hope to hear more from you.


Bill

Having gone through a state-approved apprenticeship program in Pennsylvania should have gotten you a journeymans card from the State of PA. Did you have a registration card? Also, although most open-shop apprenticeship programs won't pay as much as the unions, the agreement with the state does include guaranteed incremental increases(although the company sets the scales). It's usually a good deal for people who, for various reasons, don't belong to IBEW.

Redsy--the non-union program I went through was through ABC of Northern Illinois. We never got any kind of certificate of completion, and a few years later when I was going to move to PA, I asked for any documentation they might have had besides what I was given. They said their program was still going through some changes and re-organization and that they didn't have that yet. The company I started working for in PA, also non-union at the time, was involved in a similar ABC program. Most of those guys had a pretty negative opinion of it, and I don't think their pay scale advanced in relation to their progress through the program.

I'm not slamming all non-union apprenticeships or training programs. I'm happy about the opportunity I was given to join the IBEW. I'm an idealist though, I'm happy to see anyone get good training, for their sake and the good of the industry, and hopefully get fair compensation in wages at the same time. A lot of guys I've worked with have not had that experience with non-union employers; without the union to twist their arms the contractors won't pay a dime more than the have to. Now on the other hand, a good friend of mine also in PA works for a company that he really loves, the owners are fair, he has plenty of work, lots of OT, he's had an overall positive experience there. So I know it's possible, like I said, I'm an idealist, I wish we could all get along, enjoy our trade, get paid well, etc., etc....

Oh yeah, to all you dads out there, Happy Fathers Day!

CRW,
I know that ABC has 2 types of program. Craft traing, which is similar to attending a private trade school. And registered apprenticeship programs, which operate in co-operation with the state and the employers. A state-approved apprenticeship program should have gotten you a journeymans card. Maybe you were enrolled in craft traing. Anyway,what were some of the differences between the non-union & union training programs. I know the program I'm familiar with is mostly theory(576hours)with documented OJT(8,00 hours req'd). Year1- Residential wiring, NEC & DC theory, year2-Commercial wiring, NEC & AC theory, year3-Industrial wiring, Motors and controls, NEC & more AC theory, year4- Solid State, Drives, PLCs, NEC.


[This message has been edited by Redsy (edited 06-17-2001).]

CRW;
I find your attitude refreshing. our trade does not come easily, so it is good to hear from our proffesional counterparts in BB's like this one.

A trade that can support it's members, by whatever means available, will earn respect and good standing in the public eye.