ECN Forum
Posted By: Sean WB Project bidding - 12/09/02 08:21 PM
I was just wondering how you guys bid new construction(residential) I currently go by the square foot , excluding service build, temporary power etc. ANyway, Please let me know. Please be thorough.
Thanks!Sean WB
Posted By: Wirenuttt Re: Project bidding - 12/09/02 08:28 PM
As you descibe I keep the service and temp separate. I usually go with the stop method. So much per receptacle, switch, 3-way, GFI, recessed lite. For a receptacle it could vary quiet a bit depending where you live, but I think the commality is around $35/stop.
Posted By: Sean WB Re: Project bidding - 12/09/02 08:39 PM
$35 per stop? you mean for every termination? like every light switch, receptacle is $35? I was using the $1.8 or $2 per square foot, not including fixtures.
Please explain more clearly your method.
I appreciate the advice.
Posted By: Wirenuttt Re: Project bidding - 12/09/02 08:47 PM
Sean;
If one bedroom has 10 receptacles it would be $350. That's everytning, rough and finish, labor and material. Just seems to be a fast method. Recessed lite would be more, could be $100 a stop depending on what kind of lite, and I was giving them the can, trim and bulb, just standard residential equipment, not fancy gold trims. This method for me gave me an exact quantity of items, so if they were to add to any of the listed items in the qoute I can make it an extra. I didn't nickle and dime, but I think you get the idea here.Let me know what you think.
~Ange
Posted By: Wirenuttt Re: Project bidding - 12/09/02 08:51 PM
by the way.this is new residential..old work is much different, wont apply
Posted By: Fred Re: Project bidding - 12/09/02 10:46 PM
I always did the "per opening" pricing with the service separate. 3-gang switch= 3 openings. My prices were $30.00 per opening with NM boxes and $37.00 per opening with steel boxes. The recessed light fixtures and trims were cost of materials plus the per opening price. 240V circuits were priced individually depending on the length of run but were generally $125.00 for a range and $75.00 for a dryer. The service entrance is always priced as a package that includes meterbase, entrance conductor, loadcenter, grounding and all circuit breakers. I always include a price list with my contract that shows the per opening price if anything is added at rough-in. It also shows the per opening price if anything is added after sheet rock is up. I don't know how you can make money wiring by the sq.ft. unless you price it high or they are code minimum house wiring jobs. I figured the per sq.ft. price on a custom home I did last spring and it came to $5.50 per sq.ft. A small house(1200 sq.ft.) I did this summer came to $2.50. There are just too many variables.
Posted By: Wirenuttt Re: Project bidding - 12/09/02 11:36 PM
Yes, per opening, same thing, I just call it a stop.
Posted By: sparky Re: Project bidding - 12/09/02 11:52 PM
the problem with res. bids is that many simply do not know what they want, so $3 sq.ft is the best 'from the hip' to use , especialy for those Sunday evening tire kickers.

i've used this as a general estimate for T&M jobs where the owner/GC either can't or won't make pre-bid decisions.

the 'per opening' method takes more work...
One can always assume from a set of plans the sq footage of rooms and layouts for receptacles, yet lighting will always remain the kicker.

sure, a kit & bath overhead (et all 210.70)can be assumed for code min lighting layout if your thing is bid low and all else extra.
i just find this creates bad relations, and cranky GC's.

the service ?, round fig's~ $20 per ft UG has been competitive here, 1/2 that OH
Posted By: ken m Re: Project bidding - 12/10/02 12:47 AM
some call it a stop or an opening i call it a drop and i figure $30 a drop for a custom house. 1 drop per switch, outlet,light box. 240volt appliance= 2drops, service panel=2 drops, meter can = 2 drops phone and tv combo = 1.5 drops. that includes all standard recpt's, switches and smoke dectors. decor switches, dimmers, exhaust fans and all light fixtures including can lights are extra.
this method works best for me because it is easier to add or subtract a device or drop from the bid price. i tried using the sq. ft. method and using an estimating program from mike holt. holt's method is very thorough and exact whereas you do a complete material takeoff and plug it in to the forms. this is very time consuming however, it helped me develope the per drop price. you will have to adjust the labor units in holt's pgm to suite your area.
hopes this helps. thx., ken m
Posted By: sparky66wv Re: Project bidding - 12/10/02 02:22 AM
I started with sq ft pricing, and with a similar thread and similar advice many moons ago, I have come to agree completely that a per stop method is best, while spelling out a materials list, electrical plan, and listing of "devices and lighting" provided (say, 45 SP SW, 50 15A recepts, 12 3-W SW, etc.) to limit their ability to add things you did not count on in your proposal.

A small 800 sq ft house could be wired for as little as $2500 or as much as $5000.

Large houses will vary even greater.

Sq Ft, unless specified code minimums (or like sparky said, for the shoot from the hip- tire kickers) is just too unpredictable.

Service is an entirely different animal.

[This message has been edited by sparky66wv (edited 12-09-2002).]
Posted By: Electric Eagle Re: Project bidding - 12/10/02 02:33 AM
I'd get laughed off the job site if I quoted $30+ per opening. I've got a comprehensive list giving per opening price plus extras. My basic opening runs $13 - $18 depending on the contractor and volume. But when I divide out the sq. ft. cost, it runs $3 - $4 per foot plus service, so I guess I'm making it up on the extras(3ways, smokes, 4ways, HVAC, ceiling fans, cans,etc) All of our jobs have a lot of cans and extras.
Posted By: The Watt Doctor Re: Project bidding - 12/10/02 03:04 AM
We've talked about this before.
Coming from the commercial side, I've always wondered how the "per opening" method can really work. When I was estimating, I did a detailed take off for everything. I'm sure that there are some commercial guru's out there that have developed simplified forms of estimating that count openings for a commercial job. The problem with commercial, and industrial is that there are so many variables.
I remember a job that I bid once that had a $48,000.00 light fixture. That's right, 48 thousand. This thing was built in Switzerland, and every part was machined. I came in second at about 50K higher than the lowest bidder. I got a fixture number from a supplier that was 46K lower than everybody else. I called all the suppliers, and asked what the big difference was, they told me that (1) light fixture. I called the GC, and told him that there was a "number" floating around on the street that was 48K low due to a supplier's mistake. It didn't make any difference, the EC used the low number, and the GC awarded them the job.
The only way I can see it being done is by the EC "spec"ing all fixtures, devices, gear, etc.

Please enlighten me,
Doc
Posted By: sparky66wv Re: Project bidding - 12/10/02 03:42 AM
My prices don't include the cost of fixtures (luminaires) or their accessories (bulbs).

It does include hanging them, but that may be a bad idea too.

Some go together well, some don't go at all.
I've been tempted to insist on Progress brand fixtures, or it's T&M to hang 'em, but haven't had the gozongas to actually put it in a proposal yet.

Heck, lately, some of the Progress Lights are hard to hang.

What do y'all do?
Posted By: Sean WB Re: Project bidding - 12/10/02 07:51 AM
My figures at per sq foot do not include fixtures/fans/data/phone. If someone hands me some prints for a job to bid, I will just roughly tell them $2sq.ft. If I buy the fixtures, They are builder grade $35, fans w/light kits/controls $125, bathroom combo (fan, light , heat)$150, You see what usually happens is Homeowner will opt to select their own fixtures, etc. thus saving me from having an inventory, reducing overhead costs. For a 2000 sq foot home, $4000 is not a bad price for just rough in (romex, boxes, staples etc) and trim /punch out. new 200A permanent Service is $1100, 100A Temporary pole is $450, so without light fixtures , my bid is $5500, Fixtures extra! Besides, I really hate when homeowner drops in each evening, changing their minds frequently, so if they get fixtures, Im cool with that. Cans, fluorescents--- they are all the same to me, labor wise. that price is more than sufficient for romex (240 range, dryer, etc)
Oh yes, if there is fancy what nots (whirlpool tub, extra water heaters, water softeners,spas etc) Youbetcha its more.
I dont know if I see the difference of ease in the drop method compared to sq foot.
I like the input you are all giving, I see that I am much lower than you guys (per sq foot) maybe I should adjust [Linked Image]
I have a 5000 sq foot duplex coming up. gas stove, gas water heater, gas heat. [Linked Image] All #12 romex, except for dryer, and that may be gas too [Linked Image]
Posted By: Sean WB Re: Project bidding - 12/10/02 07:55 AM
where do i get this mike holt estimating program?
Posted By: ken m Re: Project bidding - 12/10/02 11:09 PM
sean wb, 1-888nec-code or www.mikeholt.com will get you there. he has a whole host of electrical litrature. ken m
Posted By: sparky Re: Project bidding - 12/10/02 11:22 PM
Doc,
a 48thousand dolar fixture? 48 and 3 zeros ?
[Linked Image]
good grief, does it slice dice & make julian fries?
Posted By: HotLine1 Re: Project bidding - 12/11/02 01:51 AM
And here I thought the 16-17K French "Antique" chandelier was a pricey fixture....Damn Doc 48K, what is it???
John
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