Based the NFPA 70 2008, Would receptacles located under a free standing counter, with warmers on top be required to have GFCI protection ? There is a hand sink behind this counter and like most pizza places the pies are made on a table adjacent to the counter. My local inspector is applying the same rules as a commercial kitchen to the counter area. I don,t believe that it was the intent of the coding making panel to treat this area like a true commercial kitchen.
What do you think? Comments welcomed
Thanks

I would lean toward safety and say it should be GFCI.
If this is in the same space as the actual preparation and cooking area I would say it was still the kitchen.

I agree with Greg.

Kitchen.

Most pizza places I see,Are kitchens from behind the counter to the back door.
Additionally. How far away is the sink under that counter?

Either way: GFCI is cheap insurance.

Hey guys I certainly agree that installing GFCI's is a good idea, but in the interest of interpreting NFPA 70, article 210.8 (B) (2) I would like to pick it apart and see if the intent is what I'm seeing. The counter does have a sink but NO Food preparation and/or Cooking takes place there. Food preparation and cooking takes place at another counter not connected or attached to the 1st counter.
I think you have to also look at the definition of the word Area.

Comments welcomed

Hi there Stu,
I could be way off base here, but are these bench-tops sheet (formed into a benchtop) Stainless Steel by any chance?

Having a large conductive surface can make all the difference where things like appliances and cords are being used and where water can be splashed about.

Like I said above, I could be way off, I live on the other side of the world.

I would call everything behind the customer counter "the kitchen" in any fast food or pizza joint I have ever been in.
The only exception would be a clearly delineated break room or office.

Exactly Greg,
The kitchen in my opinion is a "room" all to itself.

Over here with respect to other "places" within that space would require at least a wall and a door.

I think we are limited here by both our limited knowledge of the site, and the limitations of the language!

Let me describe a pizzaria that I was recently at; that might help put things into perspective.

This pizzaria had a kitchen and customer-service counter in what you would say was the same 'room,' but clearly different areas. That is, the food work was performed a significant distance away from the cash register. In a sense, you could say that the 'counter' was where one wall would have been.

Branching off of this counter - where the counter ran into a wall - was another counter where they had the various condiments and soda fountain. There was also a salad bar at the extreme end.

The 'customer service' counter only saw food after it was placed in a box, or on a plate. It was the place where customers placed their orders and were separated from their money. Cash register, card reader, menus, and elbow room. Even though the other side of this counter was directly accessible to the kitchen, from a code perspective I don't see a requirement for GFCI protection of the receptacles.

As for the other counter - the one with the salad bar and soda fountain - I'd that was a food preparation area, and GFCI's were required. Had there only been a soda fountain ... maybe not a requirement, but certainly no problem. I have set up several soda fountains and ice machines on GFCI's, without problems.

The condiments? Again, look at the use. If it's just a rack of envelopes, no. If there's space for the customer to assemble their masterpiece, yes.

Lets take a look at the '08 NEC Handbook commentary:

"Section 210.8(B)(2) requires all 15- and 20-ampere, 125-volt receptacles in nondwelling-type kitchens to be GFCI protected. This requirement applies to all 15- and 20-ampere, 125-volt kitchen receptacles, whether or not the receptacle serves countertop areas.
Accident data related to electrical incidents in nondwelling kitchens reveal the presence of many hazards, including poorly maintained electrical apparatus, damaged electrical cords, wet floors, and employees without proper electrical safety training. Mandating some limited form of GFCI protection for high-hazard areas such as nondwelling kitchens should help prevent electrical accidents. This requirement provides specific information on what is considered to be a commercial or institutional kitchen. A location with a sink and a portable cooking appliance (e.g., cord-and-plug-connected microwave oven) is not considered a commercial or institutional kitchen for the purposes of applying this requirement. Kitchens in restaurants, hotels, schools, churches, dining halls, and similar facilities are examples of the types of kitchens covered by this requirement."

Not that that really clears up the term 'area'; and if a Pizza shop is in fact a 'restaurant'. Another 'gray area' to perhaps address for 2014?

That said...I have to go with Reno again...knowledge of the site may help. IMHO, GFI protection required.

And...Stu....did you get an opinion from the local AHJ??

I am meeting with the head city building official (former head electrical inspector) tomorrow or Thursday. I put a call into my state electrical inspector and I,m hoping that he will call me back tomorrow.

I'll let you know how I make out.

Thanks to all

There is a hand sink behind this counter

Again. How far away?

I still think,How much does it cost? As opposed to your sleeping at nite? if a $14 GFI is gonna cost you the job....
You don't need that customer.

But I do understand the conversation (it is a good one). I feel the entire 'Space' is a commercial kitchen.
Based on the fast food places I have seen.

Most of them--cook hands the food to counter help- counter help has all the trays of onions,pickles, etc. right there. that is food prep. Non-residential kitchen.

It,s a bit more complicated. There are 7 circuits involved, some are twist locks, supplying food warmers, can not use GFCI breakers because the distribution panel is a GE bolt-in (last I checked bolt-ins where not available as GFCIs) plus there are many multi wire branch circuits involved. The only real way to provide GFCI protection is to replace all the one gang bell boxes with 2 gang an add faceless GFCIs. So you see it's not all that easy to provide GFCI protection.

Thanks

Stu

We need all the info. Now we have it.
THQ are easy to find in GFCI (they used to be any way).Just not at the box stores.

Twist lock smisht lock. all 15 & 20 Amp 120 v rec must be GFCI protected.

But I'm not your inspector.

Stu- Are you trying to talk us out of it? or you into it?

This is beginning to sound like a good example of what happens when the original design was inadequate.

I think we've all seen it .... a strip mall is built, units are rented out, and over time the theants change. Each tenant patches in the least possible to scrape by; after a few cycles, the wiring is a mess, with all manner of things cobbled together.

Even when the tenant is working directly with you at the start of the job, it can be a real chore getting them to tell you what equipment goes where, or learning exactly what the electrical needs of the equipment is.

At some point, you have to give the customer the news: he cheaped out yesterday, so today is going to cost him. If that means working midnights and days off to rip out the cludge and do it over, so be it. If you have to set a panel, too bad.

A final caution: be VERY aware of cleaning requirements and health department rules. The NEC isn't the only code out there!

Look for THQB GFCI breakers they are avail.

Try this link.......

http://www.beverlyhillselectric.com/thqb.html

They are readily available

Stu:
FWIW, as an EC, I worked for quite a few country clubs over 25+ yrs. Through many renovations, the GFI questions arrived, and to make long stories short....we did what we had to do. (Period)

Faceless adjacent to TL, or adjacent to the panel. Replaced panels, etc., etc.

As to fast food places (typ) it was the same scenario.

Basically, a decision as to finishing the job, or waiting to go to the Board of Appeals (NJ)