I've pulled off many miracles in my time, usually one after another such that they actually become expected of me now.

I owe my supplier $1200
I owe my helper $300
I owe child support $300 + another $300 is late.
I owe the phone company $250

All of this must be paid by Friday.

I have less than $100 to my name, and I'm spread out so thin on my jobs, that I can't possibly get any one of them finished to get paid by then.

So, I guess what all this means is: If you don't see me on ECN for a while, it's because my phone has been cut off, but I'll eventually be back. Don't want anyone to think that they made me mad or something.

Even if I became a doctor or a lawyer, I'd still figure out a way to remain in poverty level!

been there,done that,....hang in there sparky, it will all work out.

Yikes!

Good Luck, wish I could help.

Good luck sparky66. I've been in your situation myself. Seems like it's when I tried to please everyone is when it hurt me the worst.

Been in a similar situation myself Virgil. Hang in there; things will get better.

It seems that we all live at or above our means.

wether you make $6/hr or $60/hr, we all find ways of spending it as fast as we make it.

Wether your late on the payments of your pinto or Pousche your still late.

$ 500.00 mortgage on a trailer or $ 5000.00 per month on a Malabu.ca estate...

It seems that everyone has one of each;
phone bill
mortgage
car payment
insurance
Child support.

GOD BLESS WORKING FOR A LIVING.!!!!!

[This message has been edited by RandyO (edited 12-03-2002).]

Ya gotta raise your rates man...Just kidding.I(we)have all been there.I'm praying for you and know you'll pull through.

Keep your head up and your smile on 66.
Hard work and determination have saved me many times,you'll make it through this.

Virgil,

Don't worry. It will all come together.

I've been in far worse shape than that. It seemed like just when the world was about to end I got paid from something and it allowed me to go on.

I'm sure that if you talked to your suplier they would help you out. Just lay your cards on the table, be honest and pay them when you say you will. If you have been a good and loyal customer they should work with you.

Another thing that you might want to try is a credit line with a bank. You might be able to use your signed contract(s) as collateral.

The bank would give you the money you need and when you get paid your customer would write a two party check (to you and the bank). The bank would take thier money first and give you the rest.

Or you could try a demand note from your bank. A small loan that would have to be paid back within 30, 60 or 90 days. Depending on your needs. If you know the bank and they know you, you may not need any collateral.

Anyway, even when you do get through this, and you will, you shouldn't be using YOUR money to finance jobs. Your a contractor not a bank! And don't be afraid to let your customers know this.

Gosh, thanks for all the support and encouragement, fellas.

Spent some time talking to a lawyer/customer while on a job today, and he had lots of advice. Travel time and time getting materials (which I generally don't charge for, since I do generally add a mark-up) is killing me.

Yesterday, for instance:

7:45 AM Leave home.
8:00 AM Pick up helper.
8:45 AM Fuel up.
9:00 AM On site.
12:00 Noon Go to supplier, find out that the ceiling fans that had come in aren't paid for and the GC's account has been cancelled.
12:30 Find GC to get check for ceiling fans, etc.
13:00 Back to supplier to pick up stuff. Due to the fact that I don't want everything that he ordered (just the fan parts) then the paperwork increases exponentially, as does the time to take care of it.
13:30 Lunch (finally)
14:00 On site
17:15 Go to Walmart for cheap soda and lunch items for the week.
18:00 On the way back to hometown.
18:30 Drop off Helper.
18:45 Home

So, helper's on the clock from 8:00 to 18:30. Minus 1/2 hour for lunch. 10 hours total. I owe him $100 for the day.

Productive (Billable) time:
9:00 to 11:00 and
14:00 to 17:15

This was an underbid job already in progress before I got a helper, so I keep making less and less money on that job.

Didn't have my helper today. (Pretty day, he's mulching leaves with his other job yet..) And I came across a fellow EC's foreman. Asked if they were looking to hire a helper cause I think I've bit off more than I can chew.

At least I got Jimmy a possible job if it don't work out with me.



I haven't even considered Christmas yet... I gotta make it through this week first!





[This message has been edited by sparky66wv (edited 12-03-2002).]

Virgil,

Better start playing that bass 5 nites a week! Keep your head up it will work out. Best of luck!

Sparky66;
Can or do any of your elec supply houses delivery to your residence?

Wirenuttt,
Too big-league for me right now. They would, but I can't afford the extra inventory (net due in 30 days) and I have no place to store it if I did. I learned that even cheap stuff like Romex and devices tend to become noticably worn due to vibration and abrasion from riding in the truck, and become useless pretty darn quick. I carry no more than one roll of each type of wire at a time due to this problem.

I have a whole shed of "new" materials I've tried to salvage, the Bad GFCI on a past thread may have been one of them! I need a small, environmentally controlled, vermin free building to put materials in, and I've been dreaming about one, but even that seems out-of-reach right now.

Master66,
I haven't had credit with my supplier very long, and they really went out on a limb in the first place atfer seeing my horrible credit rating. (Chapter 7 on a past business) but yes, I've been keeping them as informed as possible, and they ("he" actually - manager Rob) do appreciate it.

The bank wouldn't give me anything on a credit line last summer, but I could show them my statement for July (My big $10.8K month this year {editted- I checked my records and had exaggerated a bit}), and tell them that with a small loan, December and January look good to match those numbers as well...

Think they'll buy it?

[This message has been edited by sparky66wv (edited 12-04-2002).]

66;
thought more on the lines of on demand delivery, like if u know your going to use it in the next 2-3 days, have it there at your house by the time u get in for the day, place it in the truck in the morning. Be on the job a little earlier and less stressed knowing u have what u need. CArry a cell phone on the job for your next order from the site, while keeping your helper busy and supervised. Don't mean to pry, and I'm sure you've done plenty of business, just trying to help.

Oh, I love the help!

Truth is, I'm fairly new to the EC game, third year, starting the fourth. I've been an ECN member almost as long as an EC!

I would like to implement your idea. I guess I have a problem planning that far ahead. Before, I worked alone and could "play it by ear", now with a helper, things have to be planned ahead or I'll be p!$$ing in the wind!

A minimum round trip to work is 50 miles ( country miles , mind you), I usually do closer to 85 (actual average from mileage spreadsheet). Lots of windshield time.

Can I legally pay my helper "by the job" or do I have to pay him for all hours - including 1-1/2 hours minimum travel round trip?

That could help a lot!

Allow me to add that I've considered having him meet me at the jobs driving his own car. It would solve several problems. But... he lives within 2 miles of me, and it makes no sense (on a moral level) to have two vehicles do the job of one.

I've only had three jobs in my hometown (not including doing stuff for Mom) so having him drive to jobs seems to be a waste. All of my other jobs are in the "city" and various and sundry rural locations.



[This message has been edited by sparky66wv (edited 12-03-2002).]

Virgil, my prayers are with you.

-Peter

You do not need to pay him for travel time. He should be happy you are picking him up. My guys are paid for time on the job no travel time except during the day. No pay for trip to job or back. Some pay for trip one way? We have paid break and lunch though. 10 min. break and 15 min. lunch. You could make him drive to the job with his own vehicle. Hope this helps............Brian

ZR600,

Oops! I editted without refreshing and didn't see your post!

Yup, I considered having him drive, but I editted the cons above into an earlier post without seeing yours... (You had the idea before I posted it, in other words... FYI to others trying to figure this all out!)

Don't some of you have an HQ where you meet and clock in, get the van, get materials, then travel to your job and be paid for all of it?

I guess I want to be fair, but I also want to survive!

I know what you mean. But I think if you let him know just a little bit about your situation he will understand. You as a small contractor will have a hard time justifying two hours or so of travel time a day paid to a helper. I think if you explain it to him that you could have him drive with no pay or "ride" with no pay he may see that riding is cheaper for him. Hope things work out.............Brian

I was going to screw off yesterday but ended up making 3 service calls. They earned me $150. It's your's Virgil. Tell me where to send the check.
Bob

Cash flow is always the crux, it's simply gotta be there contractually, fiscally, or exist as credit.

There are those that can do amazing things with paper ( no, i'm not one of them..)

Good Credit is key to the latter, how one or one's Co, LLC, Type-S Co, Proprietorship , Consortium, etc appears to the 3 major credit beurau's is important, and it takes work to get there.

Without digressing into my own checkered fiscal past i'll just mention joining a credit reporting agency, given time and proper attention this could allow you future leverage in similar straits.

Chin up Virgil, a miracle's just around the bend

66;
The days getting paid both ways are gone as far as I know. There may still be a few that involve service calls with co. vehicles. Most pay for onsight time, and leave it up to them to get there. Depending how you bill the customer will justify what you may agree to with your help. If your not billing for travel, then your paying for your helper out of your pocket for nothing, that's a complete loss. Your helper is there to not jusy make himself money, but to widen your income as well. Lets say you bill him out on an hourly basis of I $8/hr. You should be able to bill the customer at $16/hr. I'm not sure what your rates are there, everywhere is different. But your the business owner, your putting the extra time into bidding, estimating, billing, organizing, ordering and everything else that goes into a business. If your help isn't making you the extra income, than he's just another liabilty. I would try to make the best of your time with taking advantage of your help, and making a mark up on his wages thru your customers to get in your pocket, after all, your gonna have biz ins payments, maintenance on the vehicle, biz phone, etc... Hope this helps a little.
~Ange

66wv,
You mentioned before that you had been working 25 days straight, so you obviously have some irons in the fire. It is possible that you could talk to your customers and get them to pay for the work you have done. Or at least for the materials you have installed. It is not uncommon for contractors to ask for a deposit at the start of the job. Another payment when it is half finish.

It seems you are a moral and upstanding guy. However I do not think that you should pay your helper for the travel time. If he was driving his car to the job would you pay him for that. The answer is no, you are just being a good guy and giving him a ride. You are already saving him the gas money. Also explain to him that there may be sacrafices or he will go back to sweeping leaves.

If you need it I think $10 a man here could help you out. I will send cash, I do not think that you would cash a check.
Scott

Brain fart
[This message has been edited by Scotts (edited 12-04-2002).]

[This message has been edited by Scotts (edited 12-04-2002).]

Anyone else that wants to help out this guy in his time of need here is his website with his address. http://www.kellyelectric.electrical-contractor.net/Kelly_Electric/Kelly_Electric.htm Sorry you have to cut and paste.

I would recommend sending cash, I think he is too proud to cash checks. Like I said I think $10 a man will help.

Happy Holidays to all.
Scott

Scotts, I am utterly speechless.

Dude, I gotta choke back tears here...

Man...

I don't know what to say... But:

Thank you.

Just the thought of it means a lot to me.

And you're right. I just hit the "clear fields" button on a long post explaining that I wouldn't learn a good lesson if I didn't bail myself out of this mess... I do have a lot of pride. Pride doesn't allow me to beg.

But I also cannot allow myself to insult anyone who so graciously offers.

I am very touched.

Since I obviously can't stop it now, please send a return address so I know where it came from and can someday repay you.

I can only hope that someday I'll be in a position to be as gracious and generous.

Swallowing my pride, -Virgil

God bless you, man! your wearing the same old shoes i wore for a while!.. 66, i found that one of the hardest things i had to learn to do, besides accepting help from friends, was ASKING for it! none of us here want to see you fail, or get disheartened. .....
i was offered, and finally accepted, financial help from some of the strangest places, way back "when". dont know if you have a church, or if you are even a spiritual man, but, if you are, that is a good place to go and "swallow the pride".... ....the board of deacons in my church, (most of whom were customers of mine at one time or another) unanimously voted to give me financial support, to help get me out of a "hole" very similar to yours. this was a great blessing to me, in more ways than one. this wonderful act of kindness helped me, by helping me through my immediate crisis, as well as generating more work than i could handle at the time, from good-paying fellow church members... also, the church got a pretty good "in-house electrician", working pretty much free of charge, in return, to take care of the occasional needs of the church and parsonage.
btw, my "contribution" to the cause is on its way, and dont even think about paying back. we'll meet some day....i'm sure of it... ....you can buy me a cuppa joe.........

gramps

[This message has been edited by gramps (edited 12-04-2002).]

10-4 Scott.

boy it gets me steamed when someone works as hard as you do Virgil, and would have nothing to show.

especially in light of all those who live off the system , or all the corporate welfare without a shred of shame.

by no means am i placing blame, i've said myself on this BB many times that an electrician does not a contractor make.

having proved this to myself consistently is what is,i guess, contractor 101 for me, i'll assume we've all had our 'low's' here and can share the possible rx.

Did you know that we as small biz are the backbone of the economy? well it's true, pound for pound we constitute more an entity than all the fortune 500's combined.

asends soapbox.....cue battle hyme of the republic....

While corporate America's big boys have traditionally lobbied the shorts off of legislature, we've gone unheard,the disparity of our laws in some states and situations actually work against the little guy due to this.

so here is where i stand with my counterparts @ the NFIB

bookmark it for some good reading, maybe check out "Don't Wait Until Completion to Bill for Long Projects"

dragged off by stage hook




[This message has been edited by sparky (edited 12-04-2002).]

I'm among some of the kindest people in the world. I'll be brainstorming today on what I can do for you folks in return. There's gotta be something.

Thanks.

Gotta run, more work awaits...

Good Luck, 66.
Things always work out eventually.
Hang in there!

Good luck, Virg. My parents were nearly always in the straits you find yourself in now and it wasn't easy with 6 munchkins to care for. The good Lord has given you work, integrity and energy and that's a good start toward stable income. If you can keep working on the balance of timing and managing the details by gaining advice here and common sense, it'll work out in the long run even if it's tense in the short run for a while.

There are lots of ways people help each other out - a hand up when you're down, a word of advice or encouragement, or some small measure of support - and it lets you know that your effort is recognized as being good and fruitful (even if it doesn't seem to be paying off fast enough), all hope is not lost and that people recognize we're not in this life alone. My dad has always been one of those people who jumped at the chance to help others (on the side of the road or if he heard of some odd job that needed done for someone) and I know it's his way of trying to pass along the grace and mercy we've received when we needed it.

Virgil...Checks in the mail CASH IT.

So how is the great "American Dream"? Kind of a rude awakening Huh? I could go into all the reasons why being anything but a Contractor (Electrical or otherwise) is the the way to go, but you know them already.

IMHO

I do want to give you advise on your helper. Pay the guy what he is worth. If he gives you a days work for a days pay give him his just due. How long did it take to find this guy? If he comes to work everyday (even though you pick him up) and is sober you have won 75 percent of the battle. You start messing with his free time he won't be around then you have to start the process over again.
If he had to drive his own vehicle and spend three hours a day traveling any money he makes is gone in gas expenses. One suggestion is to hire someone closer to the jobs or do you drive 85 east one day and 85 west the next?

I have been both a helper and an EC and helpers cost money but they can make you money.

Billable hours. Streamline somehow and charge those travel hours. You mark up the price of your material for a reason, charge the travel time for the same reason. TO MAKE MONEY.

All us old timers have been in your position and alot of young guys too. I know you have pride in your work so keep it that way and don't cut corners for the extra buck.

Good Luck,
Tom


P.S. CASH THE CHECK

Thanks so much for the kind advice and gifts from the heart.

All of you are saints. Really.

I have no other words that could possibly express my gratitude.

"Y'all are somethin' else" as my Granny would say.

Thank you again.

Virgil,

All I can add is that West Virginia is a tough sell. Though I have never lost any money on a bid job, I have worked for 25 cents an hour.

Like you & many others on this forum, I've been where you're at. You just have to tough it out until your business grows.

Good luck.

Tom

Virgil,

Three Trucks, $75,000.00
Electrical Tools, $15,000.00
Six Employees, $3500.00 a week!
Supply House Bills, $19,000.00
My Wallet Contents $3.00
Throwing the main on in the 2000A MDP and it all works.... PRICELESS

I know where you're coming from and feel your pain. All I can say is hang in there. Good luck.

Virgil, I don't know exactly what to say that would make you feel better, but like others have said, I have walked in your shoes.

Just remember, as cloudy as today or tomorrow is, the sun will shine soon, and brighter than you recalled.

God bless

Roger

Virgil:
From my PO Box to yours my friend.....
I don't now if it will make you feel any better; but
"been there, done that" like most of everybody here.
Had a messy divorce quite a while ago, left me in financial hell. Hit bottom, started over, etc., etc.
We/I have our bad days and good days, weeks and months. Usual stuff, payroll, taxes, truck payments, suppliers, etc....
I always tell my wife.."don't worry, it (money) will get here", and ya know it always works out. Hell a payless payday for me is not unusual.

Arseegee has a great outlook, like I do, it's worth it in the end. The rest of the guys have a good outlook too.
John

Resi is a tough business. I've never been involved in it other than doing a few side jobs. In the part of the industry that I'm in, there is a thing called "material on hand". After the gear, fixtures, etc are submitted and approved, we have the suppiers put the items that we need in production, and have them shipped asap. We also have a pay schedule that is part of the contract (a written schedule right in the contract). As the project progresses, and we receive our material, we submit invoices to the GC, and they pay for a percentage of the material(85% on one of the projects that I'm on). As we install the material, we then deduct that portion which has already been paid. I don't know if this would ever work in the residential portion of the industry, but you might consider it, if you could get it written into your contracts. It would give you some relief.
All that may not mean much to you right now, but I hope it helps in the future. Virg, we've had some good laughs, and it pains me to see you in such a fix, but I have confidence that this will all work out. You remember my post of not many days ago. My thoughts, and prayers are with you, and know that I won't pillow my head tonight without going on bended knee to the One who can take care of all this. He owns the "cattle on a thousand hills". I think He can pay off a supplier, and even a phone bill.

With much concern,
Doc

Virgil, I've been there too. 5 years ago I was so far in the hole I didn't ever think I would get out. My wife and I went to a class they offered at our church for 6 Sunday mornings based on Larry Burkette's(sp?)christian financial management book. We sat down and went through the plan and stuck to it. Everybody got paid and we avoided bankrupcy. It took us a while to accomplish and it was tough at times but I didn't leave anyone holding the bag. We're not financially independant yet but don't have any long term debts other than our mortgage. It's still hard once in a while to resist getting spread too thin and tying up all our money in everyone's materials and being left with nothing to live on. We were headed there last month with over $12,000.00 owed to us, $500.00 in the bank and $9000.00 due by 11/30. We ended up with just enough collected to pay bills and buy next weeks groceries by the deadline. On Monday I let the 2 GCs that owe me know that I'm at a stand-still on their jobs until they are paid up. I've been doing service work that pays immediately this week. The 2 GCs promised full payment by Friday. I'll not let them get so far again. The first thing to remember to do when you find yourself in a hole is to STOP DIGGING! I'm 43 years old and can't for the life of me understand why I can't remember that sooner than I always seem to.
We're praying for you and have mailed some help. Don't even think about paying back. I wouldn't have what I do if not for the grace of God and the kindness of others. Just pay it forward.
Fred & Heather

I hope I'm truly worthy of all this kindness.

I'll do everything in my power to be.

Thank you all.

Fred and Scotts, you said it best. I'll pay forward, meaning that I look forward to the opportunity to help someone, as you have me.

I thank God for each and everyone of you.



Like Watt Doc once said,

Down, but not out.

-Virgil

Sparky66wv,
Thanks for your kind words. If we can't help out the good guys like you then what the h^&l are we doing here? It made my day to realize that you were going to accept our help. I know it took a lot of soul searching for you to accept, but you have to remember that we want to help you out. Mainly because you were not asking for it. That shows that you, and all the others on this board are stand up guys.

I know that you will learn from this and probaly change the way you schedule your jobs and certainly the way you bill.

I don't want to sound like I am on a real big soap box. I am just hope that we can help you get out of this and on your feet.

Like the Watt doctor said on a different post. It's never wrong to do right, and "it's better to give than to receive."

Scott

Hey Watt Doctor,
Sparky quoted you and I just quoted you in two straight posts, does that make you the ECN guru?
Scott

[This message has been edited by Scotts (edited 12-04-2002).]

Virgil,

As you know My thoughts are with you too.

Many times the best measure we can have of our worth is simply the effect that we have on others around us. Please remember that.

Bill

[This message has been edited by Bill Addiss (edited 12-05-2002).]

Pauluk;

can you contact me in relation to this post please;

J A Harrison

jhatdts@aol.com

Ta mate

Look out for a envelope with some funny-looking foreign stamps, Virgil.

Scott,
The Watt Mama would probably refer to me as the "ECN Goober". I take your post as a compliment. Just don't ever...ever...call me "late for dinner."

Please pass the salt,
Doc

ECN Goober? I think we all might fit into that category!

Wow! I know I am a little late to this one but, been very busy lately. As most have said here Been in your shoes before, and fortunately it has always worked out.


It helps me to put payment terms in my proposals, ( this way they know what to be ready for ) and always link them with inpections and milestones in the job. When it comes to the final inspection if I have not been paid for the rough no final.

Keep at it! You will soon see the light at the end of the tunnel.
Wirewiz

Once again, I'd like to express my gratitude to you all.

Thank you.

With your great advice, encouragement, empathy, and good will, I'll get through this. And ironically, I am learning from this, in ways I did not expect, about myself and others, in regard to the strenghth of our friendships here and the willingness of people to help others.

It's beautiful, really.



[This message has been edited by sparky66wv (edited 12-06-2002).]

Virgil,

From an electrician on the other side of the pond to you i do post monday morning some working capital for yourself and your family.

I like most others have `been there done that`

But remember WE are a family here, and we look after our own. !!

Do not even consider repaying the money as i would not feel good about it.!!!

Keep it together mate.

J A Harrison
Electrical/Security Consultant for Empire Construction & Developments LTD

john@empireconstructions.com

Virgil,

I really feel for you! Have almost the same $$$ problems myself.

Think it's absolutely great how you treat your Helper / Apprentice! Without going into too many "Already Known Details" of my own personal experiences, I must say that it's so refreshing to see someone take interest in a newcoming trade person! [I dealt with guys that mistook the term "Electrician" for "Magician" and would not "Give Up Their Secrets!", plus drove my own vehicles many miles to jobs - even driving others to work, only to hear complaints!].

This is another thread I must print out for Christmas Night's "Reading". I already have the one for "Watt Doc" from back around July to read [hope this doesn't make you guys (Virgil and Doc) feel uncomfortable!].

Be sure to cash the check which My Wife and I are sending! I'll send one of My Wife's checks to show how much of a "Manlee-Man" I can be! Her checks have Teddy Bears on them!
These are used on nearly all of our stuff. I use my "Plain Wrap" checks for "Professional / Work Related" stuff - mainly due to an experience which resulted in some "Unfriendly Remarks" thrown at me, due to the "Cute Child-Like Bears" on a check [don't get me started on this one again!].

Good luck with everything!

Scott s.e.t.

With Best Wishes and sensitivity for what is probably a very awkward situation for Virgil, I think it best that this thread close now.

On a personal note I'd like to say that I'm proud to 'know' all of you.

Happy Holidays!






[This message has been edited by Webmaster (edited 12-06-2002).]

66, I cant say anything more than whats been said. I havent even been able to read most of the posts. I surely been there. Being able to learn and enjoy from your posts is re-payment enough...
John