I wired a kitchen only for $900. I think that included the permit... My prices are not what I here to post about.

I just wanted to share my pain.

When he says 'provide access' that means, be there to move or open things.

I think #8 is a plate, that when screwed on it holds the device on aswell. So its not using the normal plate screw holes provided on the device.

#10 means, bring me, my tools and a ladder so we can open every box in the house.

... I could go on and on, I gotta stop. I think I lost a few hairs on my balding head from this guy.

.. I gotta add though... #17, add 1 hr. inspection time.. at only a mere $139 an hr. Theres about $350 in permit costs already, this new permit will be an estimated additional $350.

Detroit is strict to work in, which is great. I have absolutely no problem with that. but this right here, is more like rape. Can't a guy just wire a simple kitchen nowadays? I'm truly amazed.

And... this inspection was done last Thursday, when asked thursday about getting the violations, I was told the vialoations will be avalible and mailed out next Wensday, I got them today. So 1 week total. Hope nobody is in a hurry to get this place done... just take a week off while we wait for this guy. Do I sound bitter?

Hey 440!!

you can heard the jaws around here make a " thunk " sound echoed i was reading i say **** !!! sound like that inspector is way out of the line of what you are working in the area as you say you are only deal only in kitchen area then the inspector should contrated in the kitchen area and deal the rest of other stuff later but i was looking at line item #17.112 fan/ luminiares ??? jezz how he can count all of that what he did walk the whole place ??


i can see how you get upset but this i feel it way out of the line of the inspector doing and this is more than just a [ beep ] kitchen area.

Merci,Marc

He really hates you. What happened?

lol... apperently so.

That 112 fixtures? Again no idea its a 2900sq. ft. condo.

This is one of the reasons people don't get permits.

What's more, an unlicensed hack could have done that job with no permit/inspection and would have got off scot free with his cash.

I'd like to see some Michiganians post about those MEC citations. It appears the Michigan rules differ considerably from the NEC. Is that correct?

Did you get tagged by a speed-trap camera on the way back to the shop too? I mean it's all about safety, not a profit for the city, right? right?

I know EC's around here who've been fined thousands, and had their licenses jeprodised, for no permit, because the permit was displayed in the rear window instead of the front.

More and more the government is trying to strip off their little portion of everyone's savings, to compensate for poor beaurocracy and corrupt accounting, all under the guise of "public safety" and I don't know of any way to combat it, unless a politician runs on a ticket of 'stop raping the public's wallets'

seriously though, do you have a history with this guy, and did you do anything to piss him off?

edit: luminaires and fans specifically outside the area remodeled? Shouldn't things not included in the scope of the permit...not be included in the inspection? Is the inspector going to insist on inspecting the owner's underwear drawer for possibly unbonded GFIs?

You would think from this I would have a history with this guy. Well you are right, this is my second inspection from him, here is the first...
https://www.electrical-contractor.n...bb/showflat/Number/175027/page/0/fpart/1

"I mean it's all about safety, not a profit for the city, right? right?"

I have no idea where you are located, but most cities loose money on the inspection process, our state law, and many others do not allow any city to profit from permits, if they do make any money it must be returned, the city making money on inspections is an old way of thinking, just not the the way it is.

"I know EC's around here who've been fined thousands, and had their licenses jeprodised, for no permit, because the permit was displayed in the rear window instead of the"

Most likely not for the permit location, but because they never applied for a permit, and that is their sad excuse, the city knows if you have a permit issued, or you don't.

"More and more the government is trying to strip off their little portion of everyone's savings,"

Again the permit process is not a goverment generating moneym the fees are used to conduct the inspections, not to make a profit.

"luminaires and fans specifically outside the area remodeled?"

Now this is something that would get the inspector tuned up, finding ceiling fans newly installed and not on the permit application, no wonder your having problems, I can see by reading the inspectors report, that the owner most likely did not want to spend what was needed to have the job done right, you may of been better off, telling the owner to find another EC fron the start. All the items listed, I would of noted, but again the non permited work most likely trigered his tough response.

Please don't shoot me, I just wanted you to know, it was more likely the owners refusing to do things right, then your work that caused the long report.

From a post you made March 28, 2008


Apparently you should have bought the book.
If you knew he had hack work already done by somebody else, why did you take the job?

It appears that most of the items on the correction list are related to the kitchen. The inspector is only doing his job.

#8 has been in the NEC for several cycles.
I worked for Appleton back when it got added to the Code and I lost track of how many skidloads of handybox and 1900 covers we had to pitch because we couldn't legally sell them anymore.

"Theres about $350 in permit costs already, this new permit will be an estimated additional $350."

So the next time, you get one of these jobs, check it over for existing violations, whenever you see DIY work, you can bet there wil be problems, also, you may want to adjust your rates, $900 is what the average kitchen job cable costs before we add any labor, a job like yours with DIY work can cost 3 or 4 times the average price.

This thread opens a whole can of worms for me ....

The first is the matter of the actual installation. I'd like some elaboration on some of the details ... for example, is placing the range plug behind the range considered making it 'inaccessible?' This would also lead to a discussion of what differences there are between the NEC and the Michigan code.

A different matter are the administrative issues brought up by the citation. Let's forget, for the moment, just how unfair the inspector might be .... that piece of paper will last forever, even take on a life of it's own. Even if that inspector is 100% wrong, and gets fired for it, that letter will continue to circulate. Everyone in the AHJ's office will see it, and might very well decide that you must be the worst sort of hack, needing close attention.

A third issue is one I've raised before ... cabinet makers make absolutely no allowances for the required electrical aspects of a kitchen. The inaccessible plug behind the dishwasher, the split receptacle under the sink seem to be standard.

Some of the citations seem to suggest an inspector on a crusade ... for example, the complaints about the panel have me thinking "FPE" .... and the near religious zeal some have on that topic. Nor have I ever had to open a junction or device box. If so, the inspector is exceeding his authority.

Inspections are a delicate topic. Sure, you like to have your work reviewed .... but there's little recourse available that does not also entail very real risks for you down the road. If the situation is that bad, you'll have to be both creative, and diplomatic, in addressing the matter. This is one situation where membership in a trade group can help; the trade group can bring up the issues, removing the 'bulls' eye' from your business.

I understand all about inspectors doing their job. There are valid issues on this report.

I can assure you I try my best to do quality work.

After speaking with the inspector on the phone this morning I was told. I would need to write the city and say im not responsible. He said he will then charge the manager 4 hours inspection time, plus the violations. I was then told people are doing alot of rehabs and business in Detroit, someones making money. ...

Someones making money? *** is this suppose to mean? hey guy it ain't me.... This is why this inspector has a reputation that proceeds him. If this continues, I cannot do business in the area of Detroit he inspects. I get alot of work from the people doing these projects.

"I would need to write the city and say im not responsible."


How can you not be responsible, if you did the work? are you telling us everything?

The days of inspectors making up their own rules, are long gone, they need to address the codes as they stand, not how they see them, they stoppes the inspections with no grouns many years back when cities were sued for some inspectors actions, today they do by the law as adopted by each city or state goverment.

And these are the same bureaucrats that want to take over the health care system? God help us!

bman,

Bureaucrats, Healthcare and politics are not the reason we're here.

It's an electrical bulletin board.

There are a number of bulletin boards willing to discuss the political issues.

ECN is not one of them.

In my humble (former inspector) opinion, this guy was offended that you didn't show up to walk him through the inspection and he threw the book at you.
I don't agree with that thinking but I have seen others who feel that way.
Personally I don't mind walking around looking on my own but I was never in a hurry when I was inspecting.

I bet, if you fixed the things that are really (or he perceives as) wrong and walked the job with him next time it would be all smiles and green lights.

I think in over 10 years I've had 3 Correction Notices, all handled on the phone and two removed after getting on the same page of the NEC. The third was a local requirement for an EGC to be in bonded IMC. I'd personally welcome an inspection which quoted line & verse of the NEC, or MEC in this case. I'd also welcome an inspection beyond the scope of my contract. That smells like a sweet Change Order.

Dave

Tiger, you've probably hit upon the reason this thread disturbs me.

For example, in my work .... (and those who've seen pictures of it will agree that I'm far from perfect!) ... a recent job was gone over by several inspecting organizations, and a 4-page "punch list" developed.

My part of that list came down to maybe 6 or seven items; most are pictured here in the thread "Pay attention to detail!" In similar jobs, where the inspection was limited to code issues, it's rare for there to be more than one area to be addressed. A typical example was one house where I had not switched the attic light from the access port - simply because the location of that portal had not yet been decided.

That this job received such a lengthly write-up is most unusual. My It just doesn't seem right. Was the inspector getting carried away with his own importance? Was the contractor a marginal hack? Was the homeowner doing other stuff - as well as having his kitchen remodeled? I really can't say.

If I could, I'd get pictures of each item on this list .... and post them for comment. For example, I'd like to see a pic of the 'inaccessible' junction boxes under the counter.

I see I need to have a talk with the inspector.

My very first inspection with this guy, (that I have linked to in this tread). When I wasn't there, violation. Then after being there for the next inspection, and telling him yes I bonded the the MC at that metal box 3' away. I passed.

I'm not use to being there for inspections. I see that is a requirement. I do think, being that I have passed alot of requirements to be where I'm at in the trade that I would atleast be trusted to not have every single one of my boxes need to be opened up. I thought that is what a rough was for.

I appreciate the replies. I think I will get pictures when I get a chance to get down there. I have not been at thsi job in awhile so we will see.

If it was me I would see how he treated other contractors, and if it is a lot different than he treats you,I would consider taking him and the governing body to court.
He is not allowed to treat you any different than anybody else.These type of inspections happen when you are working outside of your area and the inspector is protecting his local guys from outsiders. I have ran into this before.

I was down at the building department and off my engineer again yesterday in my continuing 3 month odyssy to get a building permit. The consensus of opinion is these people are doing their best to look busy and protect their jobs so they are going everything with a very sharp pencil and generating as much paper as possible. My engineer says it is standard now to get your plans rejected several times for the most minor little omission. Three of the things they cited on my permit rejection for being missing were actually there.
Bear in mind, reinspections are revenue for a cash strapped building department.
I am really starting to lose respect for a process I used be a part of.