Go to this link and see what your answer is to this question. also what is the answer here in the United states?

http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread....1&CFID=65331336&CFTOKEN=65152517

A worthy Q.....perhaps our Canadian brethren here could answer per thier locality....


Should said poster wish an answer south of the boarder, Vermont's Laws on this are here.



bold to indicate that this NEVER happens, think about this...what contractor or EE in his/her right mind is going to assume liability for the work of others?

ergo----dumb law that does'nt work, shop sweep/maintenace dude continues on unsupervised.....

To The Defense of Maintenance Electricians who are not Licensed. And I am not speaking of all of them, only the ones who take their Job seriously. A good M.E. knows his plant like the back of his hand. He knows what the electrical system is in his particular plant. He takes pride in keping the system well maintained to insure minimal disruptions to production. A good M.E. will also employ the help of appropriate engineers etc when needed. I have more then once seen Licensed Electrical Contractors come into a plant, goof off and do substandard work and charge outrageouly to the dismay of the M.E. Here again I am NOT knocking all Licensed Electrical Contractors, I know most of them are reputable in their trade and charge fairly. I'm just saying a Good M.E knows the system in his plant a whole lot better then an outside contractor.

In my experience Joe, the good ME's don't hang out in those industries that subscribe primarily to crisis management.

As a matter of fact, i've known my share of good ME's that tied of 'putting out fires' 24/7, and actually presented a cost anaylisis of this vs. reliable installs & retrofits.

The long run $$$ per 'widget' is usually justifiable, but i guess it just buggers up the 1/4ly's or bedazzels the bean counters.....so out the door they go......

Mainly, those whom manage in said style simply wish to circumvent any codes, regulations, bueracracy etc by sending in the unqualified and unknowing.

(cue..the good,bad & ugly theme..)

I get to clean up thier mess, stuff that would send most OSHA dudes into a catatonic fit....so it gives me a 'tude, sorry for the rant.....

Steve (donn kneed noo e'stinkin' baadges) ~aka sparky



[This message has been edited by sparky (edited 11-16-2002).]

After a cursory glance around the Engineering forum, it looks like the only "Codelike" categories deal with IEEE standards.
I've got to agree with Sparky. Maintenance Electricians should do just that...maintain. Even if allowed to pull permits, they usually don't, because management doesn't want any type of inspector in their plant.
I go into plants on a regular basis to fix goof-ups caused by the "in house" people. I've found disconnects wired backwards (change a fuse in that baby!), "permanently/temporary" installations of 100 amps 480..sans conduit, with the machine operator stepping on the wire now and then.
The list goes on and on.

I have been working in factories since i got out of high school iam now 30 and have a degree in industrial electrical maintenance and do most all wiring and troubleshooting in our plant. But i take pride in my work and follow the nec to the best of my ability.

But i have seen exactly what you guys are talking about. I just recently talked with my boss about our shop letting maint helpers people loaned to us from other areas wire up stuff and troubleshoot electrical problems and told him i am totally agianst it.

since i have to come in and fix what they have done or guide them in how to fuse something etc etc.

in defense of those of us who are called, from time to time, to go into these industrial areas and finish a job originally began by the in-house maint. people, i have been asked to go into places and pull 1000 ft.+ runs of 250-500 mcm wire into conduit that was installed with Lb's backwards, back-to-back 90's, no pull points for 300 ft. or more, pipe hanging from "industrial strength" wire ties, 4-inch emt with virtually none of the set screws on the connectors tight, using customer-supplied wire that was apparently bought at a salvage sale in 75-100 ft. lengths, with the customer insisting that all these short pieces be butt-spliced together for the 1000 ft. run. and, he needs it done "this weekend"....and, no, none of his maint. people will be available to help, (how convenient!), because they are all gonna be off for deer season.

i dont take these jobs anymore.....let the in-house guys finish what they started, i say....i dont need the money that bad.........................

I agree with you gramps however in defense of us maintenance men. we have good ones and bad ones just like you guys. we have guys who our just there to get a paycheck and those who really do care and want to do it right. and just like you guys that aren't self employed we have a boss that tells us what to do and how we can disagree to a point depending on the type of company that we work for but some times we don't win.

BUT back to the main point of the question so it is legal for such work to take place.

what about just letting anyone do it like i said early in the post i have had this problem of our plant letting maintenance helpers (people such as machinist from the shop do electrical stuff) what is the law on this issue.

jihmaint,
Sorry, but your link just hooks me up with a website, nothing specific.
It's a basic engineering for "plant people" website

look at sparkys first reply he quoted the actual question from the web site.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Electrical) Nov 14, 2002
I have nowhere else to ask this so please clear this up. Is it against the law for anyone other than a certified Electrician (Journyman) to work within an Electrical Maintenance capacity in a Plant? What law? Please give me a reference to an Ontario Act. ,Law or Regulation. I believe it is so but I can't find the source of this law. Thanks.

The answerto his question depends on the jurisdiction he is in.
Most of the place I have worked in do not require maintence persons reguardless of trade to be licensed. They are not supposed to do anything that changes the load of the service,- not installing new equipment no new runs of conduit and wire etc.
Of course they do this all the time, because the company management does not want to spend the money to have a compentent licensed electrician in the plant with inspectors to follow.
They may have a good maintence electrician but most have joe fly by nite working for maybe 1/2 what a journyman makes in thier area. I have seen SO cords run across shelves light fixtures and other equipment to power a new item temporaly for 5years or so.
What is needed is the AHJ's having the authority and actually going into these plants regularly. When the bean counters and management see no cost benifit to short cut, thier attitude will change.

[This message has been edited by nesparky (edited 11-20-2002).]

Our local AHJ requires all new equipment installed to be inspected regardless of who does the wiring. And beleive it or not we are in the state of PA! And I must say we have no fear of them because in our facility we pride ourselves in having everything up to code and will hold up our work against any contractor's work. In addition to the electrical inspector, We get Dept of Labor & Industry, OSHA and DEP in here ocasionally and have never had a bad experiance with any of them.
I'm not saying any of this to boast but only to say that there actually are places that run by the code. These are the places that electrical contractors never see because they have no reason to be in such places.

and therefor miss those quailty ME's Joe. i admit to my bias here, if only from experience (like gramps post..)

lemme sum it up this way, laws aside....

Not all that is licensed is qualified, and not all that is qualified is licensed.

peace

Here here!

Some of my favorite experiences was working for SS Electric in Sheboygan, WI at the two JL French Plants (Aluminum Die Casting). SSE handled all installation and construction, and the maintenance electricians kept 'em running. With white hats, clipboards and ties everywhere, everything was always squeaky clean. I hope it's OK to plug the good guys, and I'm here to say that it was a pleasure to work for them and along with my maintenance comrades.


[This message has been edited by sparky66wv (edited 11-18-2002).]

Here in Minnesota, the companies have two choices.

First and most common choice is to hire at least one "licensed master" electrician. If this route is taken, the rest of the crew need not hold any type of license, period. When the master is not actually on the job to supervise, the unlicensed personell can only maintain (no installs).

The second choice is where no master license is employed. If this is the case, every electrician must hold a maintenance licence. Again, they can maintain, but no installs. The industries involved had a lot of clout when the state set up these laws. Because they didn't want to have to pay the higher scales demanded by a journeyman, in this situation a maintenance licence carries more weight than a journeyman's license does. A journeyman cannot "maintain" without a master license overseeing him. (yeah I know, its rediculous).

The situation at the plant that I work at is very odd. We have 9 electricians, and one electrical supervisor. The supervisor holds a journeyman's licence (almost useless in this application by law). But three of the electricians (including myself) hold a masters license. All three have extensive backgrounds in construction (including union apprenticeships). One of them (not me), gets paid extra for being the "signing master". The rest of the electricians are unlicensed, and have a background in electronics. When hiring new electricians, we strive to keep an equal mix.

Matt



[This message has been edited by Matt M (edited 11-21-2002).]

Here is the answer in Ontario, Canada.

Under the OH&S act and enforced by the Ministry of Labour, not the Inspection Department.

OH&S Act & Regulations-1999-page #60.
(Excerpts)

Adoption of Training Requirements

1) The requirements for certification of trades prescribed in the regulations made under the Trades Qualification Act and set out in the schedule are adopted and prescribed in the standard with which every worker in those trades must comply.

3) Every employer who employs a worker in a trade set out in the schedule, other than a apprentice as defined in section 1 of the Trades and Qualifications Act, shall ensure that the worker holds a subsisting certificate of qualification in that trade or equivalent certificate of qualification issued by the province of Quebec.

Schedule:

Electrician, branch 1: construction & maintenance electrician

Electrician, branch 2; domestic and rural electrician

Tony Moscioni
Electrical Inspector
Electrical Safety Authority