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Posted By: HCE727 Kitchen Island - 02/08/08 02:11 AM
What would you do if you had a 14' island, with a sink, that has an overhang of 12" on three sides and cabinet drawers and doors on the other. Where do you put the outlets or do you even have to put them by code?
Posted By: venture Re: Kitchen Island - 02/08/08 02:41 AM
Plugmold on GFCI? It has worked for me in the past. Some islands are a real pain to meet code and look good. Wiremold and plugmold can be faux finished to blend in. Good luck Rod
Posted By: KJay Re: Kitchen Island - 02/08/08 04:05 PM
When you find Tamper Resistant plugmold, please let me know.

If the space behind the sink is 12” or more, according to 210.52[C][3], it is considered a single counter space and you would only need one receptacle for the entire island, regardless of it’s length.
If the space behind the sink is less than 12” then it is considered two separate counter spaces and you would then need two receptacles, one for each of the “separate” counter spaces. You can put more in if you want, but that is up to you.
I usually mount the receptacles on the ends, close to the working side of the island or peninsula. That would normally be the kitchen side, or in your case, probably whatever side your sink faces and the faucet is controlled from. Even with the countertop overhanging the base, putting the receptacle close to the edge of the working side of the island allows for less than 6” of overhang to get to the receptacle. Most inspectors understand the frustration of trying to comply with the NEC and the reality of island and peninsula design and receptacle installation.
I have also flush mounted the receptacles in the face of the base cabinet between drawers when space allowed, but sometimes it just isn’t possible.
Plugmold is an option, but I haven’t seen it in TR yet.


Posted By: gfretwell Re: Kitchen Island - 02/08/08 04:52 PM
Interesting point on the plugmold. I imagine the manufacturers will come out with some unless they want to abandon the residential market.
If you still have some influence on the cabinet design you should see if they can give you a few inches of dead space for your receptacles. It will benefit both of you if you can make this look like something "planned" instead of just added on.
These are the times when the various trades need to be talking to each other and working together for the real boss ... the customer.
Posted By: macmikeman Re: Kitchen Island - 02/08/08 09:07 PM
I will glue/secure with screws a decorative wood blocking upside down on the underside of the 12" overhang such that it is within 6 " of the edge, and mount a surface box onto the outside face of that. Strickly speaking, this is still a violation since the specified code does not actually state that the outlet must not be within 6" of the edge, but rather the overhang must not be more than 6". However, the local inspectors seem to like my fix and have always passed it with a pat on the back.
Posted By: GilbeSpark Re: Kitchen Island - 02/25/08 02:38 AM
Some islands can be impossible to meet code.

On occasion I've had to have the builder make one of the drawers a fixed unit so that it's not operable as a drawer anymore. Then cut your outlet into the face of the drawer.
Posted By: leland Re: Kitchen Island - 02/25/08 02:48 AM
Originally Posted by HCE727
What would you do if you had a 14' island, with a sink, that has an overhang of 12" on three sides and cabinet drawers and doors on the other. Where do you put the outlets or do you even have to put them by code?


I would say, "None required".
Posted By: SteveFehr Re: Kitchen Island - 02/25/08 11:57 AM
Install this over the island, problem solved:

[Linked Image from northerntool.com]
Posted By: BPHgravity Re: Kitchen Island - 02/25/08 01:09 PM
There are a few companies manufacturing "Pop-up" receptacle outlets for coutertop applications, however I have not seen any listed for use as a substitute for permanent wiring. The ones I have seen are cord-and-plug connected below the counter-top and are listed as 'relocatable power taps'.
Posted By: gfretwell Re: Kitchen Island - 02/25/08 04:41 PM
I still think this is an issue that should have been addressed by the cabinet man in the original design. I wish I lived in a world where the various trades worked closer with each other. Maybe it is the "U" word but there is so much compartmentalism in the building business that we find ourselves stuck in these problems. It would have been trivial for the cabinet guys to give you a spot for the required receptacles in an appendage that matched the cabinet design ... if they understood the requirements beforehand.
Is this addressed at all in plan review?
Posted By: BPHgravity Re: Kitchen Island - 02/25/08 04:46 PM
I agree Greg. Architectural desires cannot supersede minimum code requirements.
Posted By: SteveFehr Re: Kitchen Island - 02/25/08 05:06 PM
Originally Posted by BPHgravity
There are a few companies manufacturing "Pop-up" receptacle outlets for coutertop applications, however I have not seen any listed for use as a substitute for permanent wiring. The ones I have seen are cord-and-plug connected below the counter-top and are listed as 'relocatable power taps'.
In this situation, I think the AHJ would make an allowance to use pop-ups.

I agree completely that this should be accomodated when the island is designed! It's easy to add blanks or wiring-friendly cabinets when you're building it; rather difficult to come back later and retrofit.
Posted By: BPHgravity Re: Kitchen Island - 02/25/08 05:24 PM
Here is an example:

[Linked Image from kitchensbywieland.com]
Posted By: GilbeSpark Re: Kitchen Island - 02/26/08 01:28 AM
BPH, got a link to that pop up?
Posted By: BPHgravity Re: Kitchen Island - 02/26/08 01:50 AM
This particular model is from:

www.kitchensbywieland.com/popup_outlet.html

There are many others...
Posted By: Theelectrikid Re: Kitchen Island - 02/26/08 02:10 AM
We've already debated those things:

https://www.electrical-contractor.n...r+&topic=0&Search=true#Post70925

On second thought, the last one linked is relatively local, just up the Northeast Extension. Better not let my mother see that, I don't feel like drilling stainless steel!

Ian A.
Posted By: BPHgravity Re: Kitchen Island - 02/26/08 02:19 AM
Originally Posted by Theelectrikid
We've already debated those things:



What topic hasn't debated yet?

Posted By: sparkyinak Re: Kitchen Island - 02/26/08 02:20 AM
This is what I like about message boards especially this one. At first glance the pic of the pop up recept, I thought that was slick. I ususally do not respond that way. Granted I would have gone and done my homework first on it but the responses snapped me back to reality on it. It is a great concept on paper though.
Posted By: sparkyinak Re: Kitchen Island - 02/26/08 02:22 AM
Originally Posted by BPHgravity
I agree Greg. Architectural desires cannot supersede minimum code requirements.
Has anyone mentioned this to the designers? smile
Posted By: Theelectrikid Re: Kitchen Island - 02/26/08 02:24 AM
Originally Posted by BPHgravity
Originally Posted by Theelectrikid
We've already debated those things:



What topic hasn't debated yet?



LOL, 'ya got me there.
Posted By: SteveFehr Re: Kitchen Island - 02/26/08 11:59 AM
<--- VERY glad he thought ahead when designing his kitchen, and not only selected island cabinets and counter compatible with receptacles, but also remembered to lay conduit before pouring the slab.

Originally Posted by sparkyinak
This is what I like about message boards especially this one. At first glance the pic of the pop up recept, I thought that was slick. I ususally do not respond that way. Granted I would have gone and done my homework first on it but the responses snapped me back to reality on it. It is a great concept on paper though.
The more practical problem I see is that if you're unable to install a box due to cabinet design, you're going to have a hard time installing a pop-up, too. You *may* get enough clearance behind the drawers to slip that sucker in, but it's still going to be tight, and you still have to get power up to it, too. Are those pop-ups UL listed to have the cord fed through a small hole in the base of the cabinet to a handy box in the crawl space?
Posted By: BPHgravity Re: Kitchen Island - 02/26/08 12:13 PM
Originally Posted by SteveFehr
Are those pop-ups UL listed to have the cord fed through a small hole in the base of the cabinet to a handy box in the crawl space?


You have to do a little research to know for sure. Of the models I have looked into, some aren't listed at all. Some are listed as relocatble power taps, some are listed as multioutlet assemblies. Each has it's own set of listing instructions and labeling requirements.

There appears to be no consistency.
Posted By: FWW56 Re: Kitchen Island - 02/27/08 05:28 AM
I do kitchens all of the time. Although I have a good working relationship with the kitchen designers, my stuff comes second.

I can usually satisfy the code by being a bit creative though. On an island with overhangs I will usually do one of two things. If there is no apron beneath the overhang I will install a surface mount box to the underside of the counter and attach it with epoxy. If there is an apron beneath the overhand I will then mount a recpt in that.

If there is no over hang and mounting a recpt in the side of the cabinet is not an option due to decorative panels etc. I will have them delete on of the drawers and fill in the opening where the drawer would go and cut in a recpt there. Have the carpenters then attach the drawer front with hinges mounted so the front will swing down to access the recpt, much like the tilt trays that used to be so common at the sink. I've not had a problem with an inspection yet and my inspectors have found this to be a acceptable solution.

One thing that I refuse to do is to not install the recpt. It is required and it will be installed. I use those two words right out of the book, "shall" and "may". I let them know that there shall be a recpt installed in the island however they may have a few options as to the location.

FRANK
Posted By: SteveFehr Re: Kitchen Island - 02/27/08 11:44 AM
I wonder if it would be acceptable to mount the receptacle to a working cabinet door, and connect it with flexible armored cable?
Posted By: gfretwell Re: Kitchen Island - 02/27/08 04:48 PM
Solid conductors in AC cable would not survive long in this application. Maybe stranded THHN in Greenfield would hold up but I think I would want finer stranding if this door was opened a lot. In the end I doubt I would let this pass without a "discussion".
Posted By: sparkyinak Re: Kitchen Island - 02/27/08 04:53 PM
Originally Posted by SteveFehr
I wonder if it would be acceptable to mount the receptacle to a working cabinet door, and connect it with flexible armored cable?

If the ahj allows it but I doubt it. If you can demostrate the installation and the components that are used are listed or approved for the application, you can demostrate there is no other reasonable solution, and if you can demostrate that the installation is safe installation then you may have a chance. However, being is a swinging door, cords are subject to damaged or getting yanked on.

Years ago I was helping on a high end house and the Mrs. wanted an outlet in a drawer for her hot rollers. The AHJ allowed it. We cut in a box in the back of the drawer and attached with heavy use SO cord and good quality cord grips. The side rails for the other draws provide a protective cavitity for the slack of the SO cord to ride in. It was a beautiful thing. Although I would not normally recommend such an installation, everyone did their part and pending on the situation, I would allow it today providing it did not pose any un-reasonable risk. BTW, the hot roller holder was warm to the touch on high and it had a built in over-temp protection and the outlet was a GFCI.
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