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Posted By: Charles Monumental chandelier revisited - 02/03/08 04:10 AM
Hello everyone,

Some time ago I posted about the restoration of a very large crystal chandelier. Some time after that, I also visited the site and now the restoration of the chandelier is being arranged. Also, it is time for an overhaul of the room's lighting system, which contains ten chandeliers and four large banquet lamps. To aid in my question, I have made a picture and with a legend and will describe the desired control methods:

[Linked Image from img.photobucket.com]

A - Crystal chandelier, 105 lights at 25 W each (2625 W, zones of 48, 48 & 9 or 64, 32 & 9)
B - Four crystal chandeliers, each with 18 lights at 25 W each (4*450 W = 1800 W total)
C - Four crystal chandeliers, each with 12 lights at 25 W each (4*300 W = 1200 W total)
D - Four banquet lamps with crystals, each with 15 lights at 25 W each (4*375 W = 1500 W total)
E - Alabaster dome chandelier, unknown number of lights (four possibly, I do not know)

The grand total is 285+ light bulbs for a total of 7,125+ W, or about 60 amps. This is assuming all the bulbs are 25 W. In all likelihood fixtures like the banquet lamps are going to have 15 W bulbs and the largest chandelier may have some 15 W bulbs, but it might be best to calculate assuming all is 25 watts.

Since most of the wiring is accessible and there is a subpanel with sufficient capacity dedicated to the lighting of this hall, I am trying to figure out a way to best divide this lighting across a number of circuits and dimmer switches.

Chandelier 'A' is going to be on three dimmers as described, on two circuits. If it is divided 48, 48 and 9, it will fit on two 15 amp circuits with 1200 W on one and 1425 W on the other. If it is divided 64, 32 and 9, it will fit on a 20A circuit and a 15A circuit, but this will surely be two 20s tied at the handle.

Inner chandeliers 'B' total 1800 W (15A) and would fit on a 20A circuit. I don't know though if it is wise to put 1800W so near to the threshold of a 2000W dimmer though. In any other case, they can be divided into two pairs, east and west.

Outer chandeliers 'C' total 1200 W (10A) and would fit on a 15A circuit. They could also be divided into pairs though, with the east lamps and outer chandeliers (totalling 1350 W or 11.25A) on one 15A circuit and the west lamps and outer chandeliers on another.

Banquet lamps 'D' total 1500 W (12.5A) and surpass 80% of a 15A circuit. They would have to go on a 20A circuit or be divided into pairs with the chandeliers 'C'.

Chandelier 'E', which hangs over a dais at the threshold of a display room, can be connected to whichever circuit has enough capacity or it can tie into another room.

Ideally, all of these fixtures would be accommodated by seven dimmer switches (three for A and one each for groups B, C, D and E) and five circuits. Or they would have to be broken up into pairs, but with no dimmer controlling more than one "letter". Manual dimmers are being sought, not a theatre style system, although there is room and accessibility to install a dimmer rack in the future.

As it stands, there are six or more toggle switches, three of which turn on an uneven mixture of lights in the middle chandelier, and the other three or more which turn on a mixture of chandeliers and lamps.

Any ideas or thoughts?
Posted By: dougwells Re: Monumental chandelier revisited - 02/03/08 08:17 AM
Just thought i would add a couple links here

https://www.electrical-contractor.n...s&topic=0&Search=true#Post167641

And I think this is the room Charles is talking about
[Linked Image]
Posted By: wire_twister Re: Monumental chandelier revisited - 02/03/08 01:21 PM
sounds like you have it well in hand Doug. I do agree that 1800w is too close to capicity on a 2000w dimmer, at least for me it is. A dimmer rack is the way to go if the customer will, if not...
Posted By: Charles Re: Monumental chandelier revisited - 02/03/08 11:43 PM
Hmm, so it seems the only "problem" load in this whole room is operating the four inner chandeliers on the same dimmer switch, since 1800W is 90% of the capacity of a 2000W dimmer, which seems to be the highest rating that a box mounted device is produced in.

I have seen some racks and cabinets which have 20A modules. Discounting 'E' for the time being, at the very least there will be six switched lines in this room: three for 'A' and one each for 'B', 'C' and 'D'. At the most, dividing the room into east and west halves brings it up to nine: 3 for 'A' and two each for 'B', 'C' and 'D'.

Nine switched lines could be accommodated for with fairly standard dimmers but that would be a mess. The switches are actually surface mounted and located beside the middle column on the south wall, which actually has a segment cut and hinged to swing open, exposing the subpanel. There isn't room for a rack or cabinet *there*. The simplest and least obtrusive installation I could think of would be to put three dimmers for the one chandelier on one side of the column and three dimmers for the other three groups of lighting on the other.

The piers with arches between them on this side of the room are essentially impenetrable and the construction between the floor and walls of this place is so strong and well done that it is an absolute nightmare to fish anything in this place. The half-columns are attached to the fronts of shallow, built out "channels", rectangular and hollow in cross-section. These were added onto the fronts of the piers many years after the building was built the centre column on the south wall is what accommodates the subpanel.
Posted By: noderaser Re: Monumental chandelier revisited - 02/04/08 04:46 AM
Would it be too much trouble to route everything to a centralized dimming system? For example, the Leviton 2408CD comes with either 4 or 8 20 A circuits. Then, you could run low-voltage control wiring to as many points as you need. They make a variety of control panels as well, and the panel supports DMX in case they have a conference or something where an outside lighting rig is brought in, and they would like control of the house lights through their console.
Posted By: Charles Re: Monumental chandelier revisited - 02/04/08 06:04 AM
It would be very difficult. I know where a control board *should have* been located but the fact that a subpanel exists where it is now and the trouble it would take to reroute the wiring to the centre chandelier alone renders it difficult to make those sort of changes.

The way this building is built also makes things tricky. There is at least three feet of construction between any given ceiling and the floor above it and so on. We're talking about steel I-beams, joists, decking, more joists with sand and mortar between them and then hardwood above and decorative ceilings below, with construction oriented in opposing directions, etc. Even when heating and piping where run under floors, they had to go through at least four feet of concrete. One of the saving graces of the construction is it is so well built that it will last forever in mostly its original form, since the structure isn't "pliable" enough to allow vast, destructive changes.

I am planning to make the least disruptive changes as possible, given that this place also showcases an enormous collection of art, furnishings and antiques to the public seven days a week through the summer and it is not the only project. There's also a grand ballroom upstairs, a music room, a dining room with lighting by Thomas Edison and numerous defective motion sensors to be dealt with and that's just the electrical portion.

I would love to do a rack but it's difficult for this particular room without further investigation. Simplicity is the goal for now (as far as the owner and I have seen, we are bound to it as far as we can tell at this time) to correct some very, very peculiar switching problems in this room.
Posted By: SolarPowered Re: Monumental chandelier revisited - 02/04/08 08:20 AM
How about something like Lightolier's dimming amplifiers? They have 2400 VA and 4000 VA versions. As I understand it, you just piggyback one or more of these things onto one of their "HDF"-type dimmers, and it then looks to the user like a single dimmer.

Also, their Multiset dimmers allow you to connect multiple dimmers to one control, which might also do what you want.

Their dimming amplifiers are listed on page 23 of this document: http://www.lolcontrols.com/clientuploads/techdocs/LOLProdGuide.pdf
Posted By: Charles Re: Monumental chandelier revisited - 02/05/08 05:31 AM
That seems like a viable solution. It is a shame though that the location doesn't lend to an immediate installation of a more professional grade system and that the issue between simple dimmer switches and a grander system is one set of loads totalling 1800W.

Has anyone loaded a dimmer to around 90% capacity? I feel that if one group of chandeliers needs to be split into pairs the others might as well, which results in many, many dimmers. Ideally, more of this column can be cut out to form a door with a dimmer panel installed behind it but I can't recall the depth of the "box" these columns are attached to or even if it was a tight fit for the subpanel.
Posted By: SteveFehr Re: Monumental chandelier revisited - 02/05/08 11:52 AM
I've got a dimmer at my house at 86% right now. (600W Lutron, 3-way). It's warm, but doesn't really seem dangerous. I honestly didn't notice I was so close to the rating until after it was installed. Those chandalier bulbs add up QUICK, don't they? (13x 40W in my case)

The rating exists for a reason. If it's rated for 2000W, you *should* be able to safely put 2000W on it. It's not a breaker, there's no 125% oversizing unless the manufacturer caveots it in their fine print.
Posted By: mikesh Re: Monumental chandelier revisited - 02/05/08 06:01 PM
I don't know if you covered it but be sure that adjacent dimmers don't touch or you will have to derate them for mutual heating. You might need a greater spacing on each dimmer.
Posted By: Charles Re: Monumental chandelier revisited - 02/05/08 10:52 PM
Steve: They sure do, and it is especially surprising when most of the 285+ are needed given the room's vast scale which can only be properly understood in person. The ceilings are also very high. The house (usually described as a castle or a chateau) was built to appear smaller than it really is.

Mike: I have accounted for this as it would be the only way *any* "regular" dimmer can be utilized for these large fixtures.

A dimmer cabinet is appealing and certainly *would* be the best solution to this problem. I just called to ask if I could get a photo of the subpanel and some simple measurements but no one picked up. I don't think the subpanel enclosure has the clearance required of most dimmer cabinets. Most literature I have read seems to indicate that most equipment needs 6 inches on each side and about a foot above and below and this pilaster applied to this pier is only so wide...

I saw a cabinet that looked good (I can't recall the manufacturer at the moment) with eight 20A dimmer modules with breakers but it required an 80A 240V feed. 160A of juice isn't needed for the room so the feed for it doesn't exist. Can such cabinets safely be fed from a lower capacity feed, especially given that there was no main breaker so no over- "fusing"? Also, are the associated issues with dimmers and share neutrals compounded with cabinets/racks? Are they usually forbidden? None of the literature I have seen so far for various cabinets has really said anything about it, save for some of the larger application Lutron stuff (32 dimmers, etc, not needed).
Posted By: noderaser Re: Monumental chandelier revisited - 02/06/08 04:35 AM
Are the lights on their own subpanel, or are they mixed with other circuits? The 2408CD does require 6" on both sides and 12" on top, but it's only 17.5" x 20".

Whatever you decide, the production guys will be very happy with you if you provide a DMX-controllable system.
Posted By: Charles Re: Monumental chandelier revisited - 02/06/08 04:42 AM
I am going to call tomorrow and ask, as well as ask if I can have a picture sent to me with the column open on the panel exposed. I believe there are some receptacles on the subpanel and then the two chandeliers in the solarium/conservatory which runs lengthwise with the banquet hall and is separated from it by the piers with open arches. These two area total an area about 5,000 square feet in size. There is also a receptionist's desk in the conservatory where guests enter. That may be on the subpanel, maybe not. It is concentrated in the banquet hall though and was put in at least primarily to feed the lights.

If push comes to shove (I'd really like to avoid it as it would require very, very difficult fishing for some new switch legs), I could possibly pull a feeder from the electrical room on the south of the building. Several feeders for various subpanels travel east from it along the walls of a servants' tunnel and then up into the principle wing of the building.

Also, I am certain that the hollow structure that the columns are on is not even close to 29.5" wide, probably more like 24".
Posted By: Charles Re: Monumental chandelier revisited - 02/06/08 04:52 AM
Originally Posted by Charles

I saw a cabinet that looked good (I can't recall the manufacturer at the moment) with eight 20A dimmer modules with breakers but it required an 80A 240V feed. 160A of juice isn't needed for the room so the feed for it doesn't exist. Can such cabinets safely be fed from a lower capacity feed, especially given that there was no main breaker so no over- "fusing"?


It was the It was the Leviton 2408CD that I was thinking of when I posted that.
Posted By: noderaser Re: Monumental chandelier revisited - 02/06/08 05:04 AM
The only reason I asked about the subpanel, was to see if you could simply replace the subpanel with a dimmer panel. I don't suppose the other circuits could be rearranged into a smaller panel that would accommodate the dimmer panel as well?

According to the 2408CD calls for 80A 120/240 or 110/208Y 3-wire W/G service. As far as clearances go, I would assume they're mostly for cooling as there are fins mounted on the side of the box. If you're willing to go there, does the column have a draft running through it? (thinking old building) Depending on your inspector/local requirements, you might be able to get away by installing a small fan on the fins, or calling the natural convection within the column sufficient cooling.

You might fire off an email to Leviton, asking about the actual service requirements, and whether the spacing is for UL listing or just in-house warranty.
Posted By: Charles Re: Monumental chandelier revisited - 02/10/08 02:24 AM
Hello all;

I was just now able to contact my friend and spoke with her about the state of things in the banqueting room. We discussed the needs of visiting DJs, sound and light techs, production managers, etc, and determined that it would be worthwhile to eventually re-route some of the wiring an area behind the banqueting hall and out of view.

Also, there are possibly three or four more banquet lamps (15 lights each) available for use out of ten total lamps which were purchased initially (a pair was sold). The globe on one may have been broken and all need to have some missing crystals replaced and they *might* be put out in the room as well.

Relocation of the controls may allow for a new feed to come in from the electrical room to support the lighting in this room while the existing subpanel could be utilized to provide electrical to meet the current demands of sound and production equipment.

Some questions:

- Does DMX require inlets/outlets and what sort of conductors are we talking about here (Cat6 maybe? This will have to be tackled later of course, I will be doing some reading up as the time comes to select equipment)

- Should any other communications systems be considered in addition to DMX?

- What, in your opinion, is the best balance of cost and performance in terms of a dimmer cabinet?

- What control points should be considered bearing in mind the following desired controls: All up, all off (fade to off), individual dimming (of course) and *possibly* remote control location. Most likely at least two control points would be installed, possibly more. A simple interface is desired, possibly something as manual as possible that avoids going through digital menus, although that really shouldn't be much of a problem.

I heard more about some of the other projects going on and this itself is not a primary one but it is one of great interest and would be valued either way. The chandelier itself *will* be restored though in the very near future. There are a few other primary projects going on right now. A staggering bid was received for the restoration of the central open-air courtyard's timbers and there is work ahead for the enormous slate roof, among other things.
Posted By: SolarPowered Re: Monumental chandelier revisited - 02/10/08 06:16 AM
DMX was originally specified to use special cables that were originally designed for RS-422 links. A few years ago, the umbrella organization for theatrical lighting (I don't recall the name) did some extensive research using time-domain reflectometers and the like, and found that plain-vanilla Cat5 cable works better than the special cable that is specified for DMX. They have since established a standard using Cat5 cable.

This research was done before the advent of Cat5e and Cat6 cable. The expectation is that Cat5e and Cat6 should work equally as well, but that hasn't been tested. Given that Cat5e meets all the specs of Cat5, I would expect that there would be no problem using Cat5e.

There is a standard around somewhere (I can't find my copy right now) that maps the 5 pins and shell of the DMX connector (which BTW is a 5-pin XLR) to the pairs of a Cat5 cable.
Posted By: noderaser Re: Monumental chandelier revisited - 02/11/08 03:51 AM
USITT (US Institute for Theatre Technology) developed the standard, and ESTA (Entertainment Services and Technology Association) made revisions to get DMX adopted as an ANSI standard.

Cat5 is probably ok for permanent installations, but I wouldn't use it for any kind of temporary or high-traffic hookup, since it's pretty fragile compared to the other types of cabling available. The standard calls for 5-pin XLR jacks for control hookup, although the dimmer panel itself and any architectural control stations you install should be hard-wired. While 5-conductor is the standard, you can use 3 or 4-conductor wire if there's an existing run.

When you're installing wall jacks for DMX, you will want a male 5-pin XLR jack in locations where a control source (lighting console) will be used, and a female where DMX-controlled lights or other accesories will be installed. Having DMX "out" (female) jacks on lighting positions is always handy. Everything is typically dasiy-chained in temporary installation, but you can wire everything together for a permanent installation. I doubt that you will need more than one "universe" (run) of DMX, as it will handle up to 512 channels--either individual dimmers, or attributes on moving lights. In most situations, one universe is fine--although often a second universe is run solely for intelligent lighting and added dimming capacity, separate from the in-house dimming panel.

In terms of architectural controls, there are a number of panels available; some that are just simply "on" and "off", some with preset buttons for various setups, touchscreens, individual sliders for each "channel", etc. The types of panels that are available will depend on the dimming panel you get; most of the architectural control stations run on proprietary protocols that only run with the manufacturer's own dimming systems, and not on the DMX standard.

Eventually, most lighting control will probably be done over Ethernet, but the standard for such is still a ways off. Right now, every manufacturer has their own protocol that are incompatable with each other, so DMX is probably still the best choice for a small installation. Most Ethernet protocols do have DMX nodes for use with DMX equipment, but the cost of an Ethernet system really isn't necessary for a smaller space like yours.

From what I've heard, the NSI (now Leviton) 2408CD is a pretty good panel. EDI, Strand and ETC also offer good options. However, it sounds like you might be limited by panel size more than features.
Posted By: LarryC Re: Monumental chandelier revisited - 02/11/08 10:30 PM
As far as functions needed, you will need emergency house lights on full. How are you handling emergency lighting? What about a ghost light for night security walk throughs? How about cleaner's lights?

Larry C
Posted By: Charles Re: Monumental chandelier revisited - 02/11/08 11:32 PM
SP: thank you, I will be keeping this in mind.

Noderaser: There is no production/event lighting equipment kept at the mansion itself. All of that is brought in by whichever DJ, production manager, etc has been hired to run an event. Any and all installations would be permanent and would be composed of male and female jacks.

Since the room has open arches along the south wall and very heavy and large furniture (sideboards and banquet pieces) between the columns of the north wall, I am thinking to suggest or plan for jacks at the bases of the columns (seen in the graphic in the initial post) as the pilasters are hollow. It would probably be best to also to add at least a receptacle at every column, on the side and closer to the floor, as the only receptacles present are concentrated on the west and east walls and a single receptacle near the sub panel.

Since my friend and I have discussed the possibility of a new location for the lighting controls, the 2408-CD is an enticing choice. The most likely location for the dimmer pack is also closer to an uninterrupted succession of utility type areas which will make running a dedicated feed through the hundred foot long service tunnel from the electrical room and up to the other side of the mansion rather easy.

Larry: I believe the 2408-CD has an emergency house lights up feature. I will investigate it further. There is an emergency lighting system in the banquet hall in the event of a power failure but of course nothing to bring the lights up if there is an emergency but no loss of power to the room.

The large central chandelier has a single bulb in it which can somehow stay lit independently of all of the other bulbs, yet it also can be turned off with all of the other lights. I still haven't been able to figure that one out. Of course, it has a very eery and spooky effect and doesn't give out enough light.

I was thinking of putting a few sockets in the central chandelier with CFLs on a separate switch leg or a socket with a CFL inside each of the corner chandeliers as a ghost light, but I don't know if this is feasible as the it would involve running lines to fixture from both a dimmer pack and also from another location. I was also thinking of a programmed night scene for the outer lights of the central chandelier or for the corner chandeliers (but who wants to keep 48 bulbs lit through the night as opposed to nine?).

What do you think?
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