There seems to be 3 paths:
1) Union Apprenticeship (Jatc)-> 5yrs, 8000 work hrs, and 800hrs school
2) Non-union Apprenticeship (ie: McDean)-> ?
3) 4 year bachelor's degree

Questions:
1) What are the differences between the union + non-union apprenticeships? advantages/disadvantages of both?

2) What bachelor degrees are accepted to be able to take the Journeyman's test?

3) Advantage/disadvantage of being a union/non-union electrician?

4a) According to the state, all you need to take their Journeyman license test is 4yrs experience and 240hrs school. Why does the union apprenticeship require 5yrs + 800hrs?

4b) can you take the Journeyman test in the 4th year of the apprenticeship? If not, then why not since you will have 8000hrs by year 4? Why wait an additional year to earn full journeyman wages + benefits?

THX!

In regards to having credentials, I'm stewing over whether to pursue my journeyman's for the county or state. In addition to this prospect, I've realized an additional issue. I've recently found I am qaulified to take the Masters for the state but I am not qualified to take the masters for the county. Our county requires min. 2yrs. experience as listed journeyman under a master. State requires min. five years ojt. and references from licensed master Electrical contractor or general contractor. I've been in the the since 1997. I wonder ethically about the right decision. Any comments would be appreciated.I live in Saint Johns County, Florida

Tom,

The pros and cons of union membership vs. non are one of the subjects that we avoid on ECN. It just causes too much trouble and animosity, and it's better not discussed here

If anyone would like to discuss it with you, they are welcome to use the Private Message feature, or use email if you've got your email address listed in your profile.

(BTW, I have already deleted one post from this thread)

The bachelor degree is the tough way to go...and you'll likely need to learn all the apprentice stuff later anyway.

My degree was great for theory but included a lot of 'fuzzy subjects' like French Literature courses that never got used again. My training for field work, wiring, conduit, fusing, etc. came courtesy of my GE training (after graduation) and is what I use almost every day. In fact, I tell folks in all honesty that I learned more in those 12 weeks than I did in the preceeding 2 years.

Apprentice training, wherever you find it, is more targeted to stuff that you will be expected to know when you get in the field. Your JM will be able to explain why you dress line and load cables in a certain way, but he may get a bit miffed if you ask him how to measure for a conduit bend.

It's a great field to be in...hope it works out for you.

In the state of mass we needd 8000 hours of on the job training plus 600 hours of code class hours before we can take the jouryman exam. To get the masters you need a year of working in the trade once you have your jouryman ticket plus another 150 hours of masters code class. After 5 years i have 6002 hours andd 450 code class hours. It took a little more time cause construction in western mass is a little slow.Thats it in a nutshell for the state of mass. Good luck and keep plugging away,
Steve the almost 49 year old apprentice.

It's an excelent field. With endless possabilities and direction.
So my advice, go for it, no matter what the requirements.

I tried to get my son into it, he said "no, everything is going wireless"... Then I brought him into a SPRINT cell/ tower site.... Talk about wires !!!

Ghost is right about the college path. I can't imagine how sitting in a classroom for 4 years can really compare to several years of real world experience.
Give me the "on the job" candidate every time.
Certainly some of the code and theory basics can be learned in school but you need to do the job to learn the job.
I think virtually all education should be a mix of classroom and working at the job. Unfortunately "educators" are such a closed minded group they can't think outside their little world of the classroom. Most have never even been "outside" in their whole life.

5yrs and only 6000hrs?! wow, that is slow considering:

40hrs/wk x 52 weeks = ~2000hrs/yr. so 4yrs = 8000hrs.

That's why i was surprised about the 5yr AND 8000hr rule for aprenticeships. you're basically working an extra year at apprenticeship benefits?

as for bachelor's degree, what other degrees besides electrical engineer allows me to take the Journeyman test?

While I know it is done, it is my opinion that the only one that should be able to take a journeyman's test is someone that has completed the required number of hours of one the job training. Having a EE or any other bachelors degree does not qualify you to be an electrician without the on the job training.
Don

There's no question you need both, on the job training and schooling. I'd recommend any four year (minimum), one night a week, trade schooling program over college.

I went thru a 4 year apprenticeship while simultaneously earning an Associates in Pre-engineering at a community college and then three years at a private engineering school in the midwest. I now have a masters license, an Electrical Engineering degree and am a licensed PE. All apply at some time during the day but my early days spent in the field under some outstanding JW's are the experiences that have proven the most fruitful.

In regards to the union/non union concerns, it's not were you went to school but what you learned. Above all you need to be able to think on your feet and make solid decisions based on the training and experiences you have at the time.

The EE degree has some relevance with the electrical work on projects, but most of it will not pertain to the physical installation of a project. That can only be learned in the field. (Only about 20% of the people who start a EE program finish, it's not for everyone.) With a EE degree and two weekends of review, you'd be able to pass the JW test. That doesn't mean you will be capable of doing the work.

Above all finish what you start. That's what gets employers excited.

Best of luck.

I think you need, first of all, to be careful with your terms. Words mean things ... sometimes very specific things ... and can have a direct bearing on the answers you get.

"Journey" men pre-date college degrees by several centuries. Then, as now, they were expected to follow the work, from job to job. Sure, today most limit their travels to the same community ... but the actual place they work changes daily.
The short answer is: to become a Journeyman, you MUST first be an apprentice. Not so long ago, this meant having a recognized master take you under his wing for several years of work and training.
Today, the "Journeyman" credential is issued either by a Union, or a government body (usually local). The "apprentice" programs are regulated under Federal DOL standards, and usually monitored by your state.

The effect of all this is that it is almost impossible to be allowed to even sit for the Journeyman test without first being accepted to a state-recognized apprenticeship program. Such programs typically require four years of specific course work (which may earn an Associates' degree), and at least the equivalent of 4 years of full time work, for a licensed electrical contractor, with the work documented to cover different parts of the trade. 4 calendar years of seasonal work roping houses won't suffice.

NOW- maybe you didn't really mean 'journeyman electrician.' Perhaps it is your intent to, say, work in a factory, keeping things running. This is honorable, and skilled, work. While sharing many things with the work performed by a journeyman, there is a much heavier emphasis on controls and motors. You'll never be dealing with services or 3-way switches.
For this work, there are a variety of trade schools and community colleges with 'industrial maintenance' programs. These typically result in an Associates' Degree.

Finally ... the "4 year degree" you mention. I am not aware of ANY such degree that will result in your being able to take a Journeyman test anywhere. Not even 'electrical engineering;' that's a different discipline altogether.

I should have said that one of the people i worked for went out of buiness. As a former CNC Machinist there is no problem finding a job. I work only part time for a older guy who was nice enough to keep me on and try to get my hours in. I did take a year off when work was slow and went back to a shop writeing CNC programs. I enjoy the electrical field very much. It just took a little longer than I thought. Once you have the license you are free to make as much or little money as you want. Its all up to you. Just find a reputable contractor to work for and beware of shock and trip and falling hazards and you will be fine.Best thing i like about the electrical field is bucket truck work.

I believe anyone can take a Journeyman test with the SBCCI- at least they could when I took it. This doesn't mean you get a license. The test is recognized by many states (including NV). I took it before licensing was required here in TX, just to satisfy some a local inspector. It did not get me a license because none were required here at the time. I had served a four year apprenticeship program but I don't recall that coming up in the application.

When they started licensing journeymen here in TX a couple of years ago, they basically licensed everyone who could certify the required xx hours. Consequently, there are many JW who never served any type of apprenticeship or took any classes in electrical theory. The title JW is severely diluted as a result.

Nope, never worked maintenance by have worked in my share of factories. I see no difference in installing a 5,000 amp service, a 4,000 I/O PLC system, or terminating fiber optic cables. It all works on basic principles of physics. I have roped a couple of houses, and will leave the rest of them for the guys from El Salvador to do. By the way, they do have services in factories and they do have more three ways than any house.

Unions do not (or at least did not) recognize the 'master' title. It's been 25 years since I worked in that environment so I don't know if they do now or not.

"Nope, never worked maintenance by have worked in my share of factories. I see no difference in installing a 5,000 amp service, a 4,000 I/O PLC system, or terminating fiber optic cables. It all works on basic principles of physics. I have roped a couple of houses, and will leave the rest of them for the guys from El Salvador to do. By the way, they do have services in factories and they do have more three ways than any house."


Boy this makes me feel good.

Feel free to wire my EX's House.... Better still don't. I have a conscience.

"I have roped a couple of houses, and will leave the rest of them for the guys from El Salvador to do."

Why? Too much work for ya?

"When they started licensing journeymen here in TX a couple of years ago, they basically licensed everyone who could certify the required xx hours."

Like looking in a mirror?


WOW!!!! God Bless America!

I'm Disgusted now.

Let's keep on topic.

The guy asked how to become a Journeyman Electrician. Not how to be an engineer, or laborer, or anything else. He then laid out some methods of training that would lead to competence in a related trade ... but not recognition as a journeyman electrician.

Words mean things. You say "journeyman," I want to see the card, the credential. The term itself means that some other tradesman has vouched for your having mastered ALL the basics of the trade.
It's no surprise that unions are closely associated with journeyman credentials; the very concept was invented in the Middle Ages by trade guilds. Recent decades have seen the establishment of non-union affiliated apprenticeship programs, but the concept is the same.

However, the term "electrician" covers a lot of ground .... and the range is getting greater every day. It's no surprise that there are countless related trades- folks who work with electricity, but do not concentrate on chasing after new jobs.
One such related trade is the "Industrial Maintenance Electrician.' Such a person typically gets his formal training, and certificate, from either a trade school or community college.

In Virginia to take the Journeyman Electrician test:

http://www.contractors-license.org/va/Virginia.html

- four years of practical trade experience and 240 hours of vocational training.

- an associate degree from a Department-approved program and two years of practical experience

- an bachelor's degree from a Department-approved program and one year of practical experience

- ten years of documented Department-approved practical experience

For Virginia, Electrical Engineering is an approved program. But i cant find what other degrees count.

Thank you, Tom, for the correction. Virginia certainly is in the minority - but please note that there is still a work requirement. Don't be surprised if the work is required to be in Virginia, for a Virginia-licensed electrical contractor.

I worked for the Federal Government. I got them to pay for my apprenticeship classes that I took in the evenings at Fairfax County Adult continuing education. Prior to graduating, I took the journeyman test and passed, and prior to taking the exam, I retired from the government. Now I am an electrical contractor in north Carolina. I had to take the exam here. I will be taking a more advanced test so I can do commercial work also. I am in school here two nights a week for the contractors test. The class only cost me 65.00 and runs from July to December. I still hold my Virginia journeyman license, and when I pass the limited exam here I can get a Va masters license automatically because the states are reciprocal.
You need verified work experience and school hours in both states.

What constitutes "one year practical experience"? How many hours a week is enough? Does it have to be under a master electrician, or can it simply be practical electrical work? I'm in VA, btw.

I'm an engineer and, well, don't work for a master electrician. Thus, most of my "practical experience" was in building my home. And let me tell you- it sucks to see obvious easy problems I wouldn't hesitate to fix in my own home, yet be completely unable to legally touch them. Do design, oversight & inspection of electrical work count as practical experience?

Steve, why wouldn't you be able to work on things in your home? Va does have owner/builder permits doesn't it?
Maryland issued me a building permit along with grading, roof, plumbing, HVAC and electrical for a 1000 sq/ft, 2 story addition I put on.
Florida let me build a pool, screen cage and pool electric.

Oh, working on my home isn't in question, I'm allowed to, and did all the trades myself when I put on that 2000 square foot addition- electrical, plumbing, HVAC, carpentry, cabinetry, etc. Everything but charging the AC, which requires an EPA license.

I want to be able to do commercial electrical work, though, which requires a license. I was hoping my hands-on experience wiring my addition, and my commercial experience as an engineer would suffice for VA's requirement and allow me to sit for the Journeyman test. I took a few modules of the practice exam on Mike Holt's page and am confident I could pass the test if I sat for it. I'm also a licensed PE, btw.

You may be able to sit for the Va contractors test based on your degree. That is state or local law.

BTW the "EPA freon license" is only money and a very simple test you can take online. You really only need the license to buy freon (R12/R22). Newer "safe" refrigerants are exempt. In fact they are selling precharged mini-splits with "Puron" clones on the internet and through local industrial supply companies to anyone with the money. They sell R134 at the drug store.

It was R22. Ironically, I bought the R22 myself in a precharged 2.5 ton unit, sans license. I know the test is a joke, but I haven't had a chance to take it yet. Figured this way, I'd let a pro solder the copper anyhow- I'm not terribly good at sweating pipe; we did the plumbing ourselves, but it's one thing if a copper pipe joint sweats a little water- quite another to lose all that freon.

VA only requires 1 year experience if you have a 4-year degree, but doesn't elaborate on what constitutes "experience." I guess the only true way to tell is to call up the state licensing board and ask! Hard part will be convincing my boss to pay the licensing fees

I don't get it. If you want to hump wire and pipe as an engineer, then open your own shop. I'm sure the 'guys' won't lose any respect for you if you want to come out and throw on the tool bags. They might laugh behind your back, but in the end they will respect that you learned a few angles that increased efficiency and reduced headache.

If you just straight out want to crossover to the field, may as well humble up and start at square one. No one is going to like the way you got your journeycard and you will be spending alot of time at home.

I've noticed alot of posts this past few months of people who want to cut corners to get their jcard. There is a sense of entitlement in the air. No community college tech school, navy ship experience, maintenance man experience, fill in the blank, is equivalent to making an electrical installation for an electrical contractor. I have news for people on the outside looking in, being an electrician is something worth working hard and studying for, for four years. Allowing people licenses by cutting corners hurts us and them. Nobody, no matter how mentally able, is capable of making thorough, quality installations in less amount of time, unless its residential, anybody can learn that in 6 months.

Stevenj76 ... I can certainly understand your angst. I've got a fair amount of time in engineering .... before I entered the trade. I think there's a few attitudes floating around that get folks confused. I'd like to restate some basics - not to be insulting, but to clear the air a bit.

First of all, an 'engineer,' electrical or not, is NOT a 'higher rank' in the electrical field than an electrician. Believing so makes as much sense as expecting a book on manners from a "Civil" engineer! Does electrical work and engineering have places where they work together? They sure do. They are related ... but not the same.

The attitude that an 'engineer' is automatically superior to a mere 'tradesman' has its' roots in a very ignorant attitude put forth in our schools: that the trades are for those "not good enough" for college. Balderdash! What folks outside the trades fail to realize is that any journeyman, of any craft, has put as much effort into mastering his trade as anyone else does to finish college. So, as a result, folks seem to expect their other experiences to somehow allow them to 'short cut' their way to a journeyman card.
Let's turn this around: How about a journeyman card automatically allowing you to take the PE test?

As I've said before, words mean things. In a world lacking in standards, the title 'journeyman' represents a concrete accomplishment: the completion of an apprenticeship. As such, that credential is recognized by others who use that trade. There are defined standards that must be met to complete the program.

This is generally not true for related trades; their training is at the whim of their employer .... it may be good, bad, or indifferent. Many times, the training is brand specific, and not directly applicable to other employers. Can the training be relevant to parts of electrical work? Sure .... but how do you quantify it?

Entering a trade is NOT a 'step down.' Heck, being a fighter pilot is a trade - no schooling or prior experience will let you short cut the training - but no one considers them inferior to say a degreed librarian.

As I'm fond of saying, engineers know what to do, electricians know how to do it. There's a good deal of overlap in the middle, but two vastly different skillsets to learn if someone wants to do both. I don't intend to presume my engineering experience gives any sort of magic entitlement to practice as an electrician, but it does give me a leg up from the man on the street walking in cold.

Nor do I intend to quit my job and start pulling cable; it's just frustrating to be able to stand there and go "Ayup, we've got a problem! Looks like that ground right there is corroded and needs replaced before someone gets killed. I should go find a contracting agent so I can put the job up for bid and maybe get an electrician out here in a few weeks to take care of it." We've had a smashed receptacle here for 4 months- 4 MONTHS- a simple smashed duplex receptacle- that would take appx 3 minutes and $2 to replace, including tag-out time. Yet all I can legally do is wrap it in caution tape, and I probably wasn't even supposed to do that much. I have respect for electricians- that's why I'm here on this forum. But just because I haven't spent 5 years bending conduit doesn't mean I don't know what I'm doing. I *do* have experience in electrical work, it's just not the traditional "apprentice-on-up" kind that most of you have.

My post was NOT directed at you personally, Steve. Rather, in a broad sense, I've encountered comments and assertions from folks in several different contexts that suggested to me that few truly appreciate the 'skilled' in the term 'skilled trade.'

Likewise, having recently completed a project for the local school district, I was made all too aware of the 'college only' emphasis that the kids were getting.

That is one reason why I can't get too mad at the Mexicans. We have a lot of people who say they are here taking our jobs but if you go down to the high school looking for someone who wants to work in a trade, starting at the bottom, they look at you like you have two heads.
For some reason they would rather go to college for 5 years and work in a dead end office job the rest of their life.

I know NJ specifically does not count any hours working under a licensed contractor in a management capacity toward the 8000 required hours to sit for the exam.

That is why they require 8000 hours on the job, in that amount of time you can be fairly certain that a person has encountered a variety of jobs, tasks and had the opportunity to glean the required skills from his fellow tradesmen. I know this is not always the case, but I do believe the logic is sound and think that it works more times than not.

No offense, but wiring one addition - while admirable, does not prove sufficient skills in the field. Plain and simple.

The real question is, how well do they verify those hours?

This is the government

If you show up with a stack of pay stubs (or W2s) from XYZ electric I bet that works, in real life I doubt they even look at the pay stubs.

I know when I got my Florida inspector's license they never did anything to verify my experience. My wife is sitting for the GC license this fall, lets see what they do then.
(but then we all know GCs are liars, I read it here, must be true)

I'm sorry, I was operating under the assumption that we were not discussing how to bypass (BS) the intent of the licensing procedure,

I do not know how well they verify the hours, nor do I have any need to know since all of my hours are spent doing legitimate electrical installation work in the company of other qualified mechanics. Not to go off on a rant - but the trades are plagued with this kind of attitude toward licensing thing and it gives us all bad name.

Many of us have explained the right way (union or non-union) to go about putting your time in, gaining both the practical and technical knowledge and experience, documenting your hours and taking your exam.

Renosteinke put it well a few posts ago - there is big difference between being a licensed contractor and a journeyman electrician. If you want to find out how to weasel your way into sitting for a licensing exam - I suggest you start a new thread.

I'm not trying to weasel into the exam. By state law, with a 4-year degree, I'm required to have 1 year of experience to sit for the exam. My question was simple: what constitutes experience?

The simple answer everyone seems to assume- 40hr/week of "hands on"- is not quantified in state law, and doesn't even really automatically give the expertise a journeyman is expected to know. After all, five years of an apprentice pulling romex in new tract homes doesn't teach the wide range of skills that common sense says a journeyman electrician requires. But it's clearly 5 years of relavant experience. As such, I have probably about 3 months worth of hands-on residential experience like this, and 9 years of design and inspection in commercial buildings. (I'm an AHJ for a number of government facilities and know the codes and techniques very well, even though I'm not the one physically lubing up the cables.) I really didn't mean to start a huge debate- the licensing board in my state clearly feels that with a degree, 1 year of experience is required vice 5. I was querying whether my experience is enough to meet the vague "1 year experience" requirement to let me sit for the journeyman exam. And it seems the only way to find out for real is to contact the licensing board and ask them.

You said it yourself in the post above - you have 3-months hands-on experience.

It does not take an engineer to determine that the term practical, as it relates to being a tradesman or journeyman electrician , means hands-on.

I am looking at a copy of the Virginia "Tradesman Experience Form" right now. It reads and I quote, "All practical experience in the trade should be verified by building officials,building inspectors, employers, contractors, engineers, architects or clients attesting to the applicants work in the trade."

You must then fill in the form showing, start and end date of employment, Name and title of person documenting experience, and detailed position description.

Your practical experience, wiring your addition was not performed in conjunction with your employment. Therefore the two are unrelated and mutually exclusive.


Look up practical in the dictionary and there is your answer, It does not take a degree to figure this out.

Although I do have one if that influences your opinion of my responses. Ironically it is in Political Science, so I know my way around state bureaucracy rather well. Specifically Virginia and West Virginia.

The building inspector that inspected my work can attest.

Nowhere is it stated that "practical experience" means "hands-on, and hands-on only", though. If they intended only "hands on", why didn't they come out and say specifically that? The way it's worded, it makes sense that other types of practical experience are acceptable. Building inspections, for example.

You were not employed by the building inspector, nor can he document that you even did the work.

He cannot attest to your work in the trade. Even if that were the case - you yourself stated it was three months.

I say again - look up the definition of practical. Then look up the term electrician or journeyman or both.

Anyways, I am curious to see what the board says. Personally I am amazed that VA even has that stipulation (1 year exp only after a 4 year bachelor in engineering)

I don't find myself agreeing with NJ government often - but in this case I do.

Too bad for you Virginia does not have prevailing wage laws - you'll be giving your work away from what I know of govt pay scales.

Steve Fehr, I know you are probably getting frustrated.

In alot of states you don't even need a license to be a full-blown electrician, just do the home study courses as seen on TV. Those kind of electricians are actually the same guys that build the entire house, from clean&grub site work all the way through to hanging the towel bars.

I say, if having your degree and one year of experience will allow you to sit for the exam, then go out and work for a year, then take the test. Most other states won't allow you that course of action, and most will not reciprocate your license I'm sure, except the right-to-work states.

If you want to get your license to use it to become a contractor, thats kind of a wasted step and time. Here in Oregon contractors are required to have a 'Signing Supervisor' which is an 8-year card, and the test is near impossible to pass due to market saturation. Alot of contractors simply put a signing supervisor on their payroll and pay him $xx to sign the permits, its very commonplace. A few of the guys I work with have their own Supervisor's card and do nothing with it except renew it and in reality they are just glorified journeymen. I'm not in business, I just work in the field, but there is a big division between the office and the field if the company has more than a few employees. My old boss used to come out and wire like greased lightning, then after lunch he headed back to doing paperwork and bids... I guess he was working 80 hours a week and then some, the company only had 8 guys.

Wherever your path leads, just work hard and doors will open. If you go out and work for a contractor for the required time, you will learn alot AND there will be no splitting hairs with the licensing board over your experience.

Are you absolutely positive you need a license to replace a device (broken recpt.) in Virginia, I thought simple maintenance guys could do that...

Well, this is on federal property, so it gets a little fuzzy between federal, state and local laws sometimes, especially with multiple levels of safety requirements thrown in. Then, we get into semantics on what exactly "qualified" means, as the instructions are invariably vague! Conventional Wisdom: license in the state (any state) conveys qualifications. But I've never seen that in writing.

What would the requirement be for maintenance men/handyman type? I was under the impression they still had to be a licensed electrician/plumber/etc to so much as touch it.

the 4yr degree is ONLY in electrical engineering. no other engineering degree will substitute. I called VA and was told this, although it sounded like i was talking to the secretary instead of the person incharge of the dept. (she was shaky in answering a couple of other simple questions relating to the exam.)

A university EE friend (OK I may had had a bit of a fling with him in junior year) of mine decided he wanted to go into the electrical trade after he graduated from our regular 4 yr college program - he was the most practically minded student in my class. His new employer soon learned that he was FAR more valuable to him doing designs and plans (as opposed to ACTUALLY doing the installation) so he spent his year in "training" doing work the employer would have had to pay an outside EE to do. As I recall he did spend time on job sites but usually in a problem solving capacity where a particular installation was not doing what it was supposed to be doing. He got his electrician accreditation with the "year of training". Incidentally he failed his PE several times and I think has given up on that now.