Some time ago, in "Hiring Convicts," I asked if you would hire a released convict. The overwhelming answer was "are you nuts?!"

Indeed, one of our ECN members is having a 'spot of bother' regarding the authorities' dim view of his 70 'wacky tabaccy' plants. If he is convicted, he will lose his license, and be unable to work the trade.

Now I am looking at the latest issue of EC&M magazine. In "Inmates Turned Electricians," the magazine discusses the programs at a number of prisons that train inmates to work as electricians upon release. It appears that at least one prison system has it's instructional program comply with the classroom portion of the first half of a recognized apprenticeship program.

Opinions, they say, are like fingers .... most of us have a handful (or two) of them. I know I do - but what say you?

WOULD you hire / train / work alongside someone fresh from the joint?

My initial instinct is no way. Another issue I really need not deal with. With further thought and also knowing there are "success" stories of reformed convicts I think I would entertain the idea. This would be a case by case deal so I wouldn't give a blanket yes or no answer.

Completely depends on what the conviction was for. Would I hire a convicted rapist or armed robber? Absolutely not. A convicted pot grower? Sure, especially if I had a job scheduled that involved wiring up a lot of HID lighting...:)

Ok, I may be able to answer that, when I worked at a paper mill, they had a rough time hireing help, on the dry end, it was like working in a sauna all day, and on the dry end, dusty, dirty, and hot. As it turned out they hired help just released fron the Joint, they showed up on time, did their work, and never complained about much except the bad food on the lunch truck, I could leave my wallet sitting anywhere, come back and it would still be there, with all it's contents, If I needed a hand moving something heavy, no problem, they pitched in without asking, so my answer would be give them a chance. I would not expect them to work residential homes, service work, they may be put in a position there, if something went missing.

I agree with the above. It would depend on what they went to the can for. Everybody makes mistakes in life. I wouldn't work with anyone who was released after serving time for hard crimes (murder, etc) but people who have served time for minor drug charges and things like that don't deserve to spend the rest of their lives paying for it. They did their time and went through the justice or injustice system.
Their are many people who have commited minor crimes in their lives and never went to jail for them, especially drug ones, just look at who your big boss is.

I have a friend who will be incarcerated for a minimum of 8 years for attempted murder. The time he was "snapped" was probably a couple of hours. The years of service in a high stress, high responsibility position and my company running him into the ground didn't seem to count. The fact that he protected us with his military service in Vietnam and S. Korea didn't either. How I wish I could get him out and work alongside him. He is not your normal case but shows that you might find some pretty special people if you scratch the surface a little.
Joe

that's just it, the first time something comes up missing you have an automatic suspect !
for that matter, just being part of a crew could give someone else itchy fingers,

OTOH, I would hire a certain heiress who will be out of jail pretty soon ....I would probably be in compliance with the ADA as well.....:)

The inmate electricians who I dealt with in the state inspector job were usually drug dealers. The super was not thrilled with them (they were on the lazy side) but they did bend some pretty pipe.

I have a good friend who spent a little leisure time in the slam in the late 1970's for a drug sale conviction. He came out and wanted to clean up his act and do electrical work. He did his apprentice stint, j-man time, and became one of my competetors, still in business, a bit fatter and much much smarter nowadays.

Reno - I would be intrested in seeing that artical. Could you scan it and email it? Thanks.

I am in the stuation of teaching inmates basic electrical theory. I have had many students convicted of different crimes but would treat each person on their own merrits.

Intresting to see US oppinoins comared to UK on this one.

Most felons are on probation for a period of time after their release. During that time they must have a job and stay out of trouble. Many are exploited by employers that know they can send the guy back by firing him.
I have worked with a convicted murderer, (10 years in prison) nice guy, and an armed robber, (served 3 of 5) he was just the driver. Nice guys, no problem.
Treat people the way you would want to be treated and it usually works out.

The victims may beg to differ.

There are a whole lot of circumstances that fall into play.

Your type of work - Do you work on new tract homes, or in jewelry stores?

The nature of their offense - Did they go to the can for selling pot, or for murdering their previous employer? Were they in "Camp Snoopy" or "Supermax"?

The number of times they've been incarcerated - If they haven't been able to stay out for any appreciable amount of time in the past, why would you think they can stay out now?

Your own level of comfortability with it, and that of your other employees - Anybody going to lose sleep over it?

It all needs to be judged on an individual case by case basis.

On the UP side: I am working three right now; they show up on time, do what they are told, don’t complain and address me as “sir”. I could give them a plastic spoon and ask them do dig a ditch and they would say “yes sir” AND get it done. One in particular cut his hand very badly a tried to hide it thinking I was going to fire him. He was very surprised when I sent him to the doctor and put him on light duty and did not fire him.

On the Down side: I have a had a few that just could not get rid of their demons and ended up back in trouble with drugs or alcohol and eventually they violate their parole and end up back in jail.

None of the dozen or so I have tried over they years has gotten violent or caused problems, the ones that go bad usually just self destruct and get crossway with their parole officer and when that happens its all over.

I don’t work rapists or child molesters under any circumstance.

I think it is against the law (or slippery slope) to even ask in my State? (Unless there was a conviction?) Or more than two years prior??? Or you are breaking the law yourself...????

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=lab&group=00001-01000&file=430-435

Mark, that only says you can't ask about arrests that didn't result in a conviction. You can ask if they were ever convicted of a crime.

They only reason a LOT of us aren't convicts is that we never got caught.

Here in Canada you can only ask if they were convicted for an offence in which they have not been granted a pardon for.

If the person says yes, the employer is not allowed to ask what the conviction was for but I am sure the security check will tell them that.

When I first entered the workforce, draftsmen were often suspected of having a prison term in their past; this was in part because the prison system trained many convicts in that trade.

The EC&M article details similar programs; prisoners are provided classes, even allowed out during the day to work jobsites.

Most of us had to surmount many hurdles to enter the trade. There was the test, the interview, the search for an employer willing to pay for our classes, the difficulty of paying bills, while being churned through a succession of employers during our apprenticeship. We recall lean winters, where we were refused temporary employment in the meanest jobs, "because as soon as work pick up they'll call you back."

So now we're supposed to compete with Joe Felon ... whose main qualification is that he's proven to be a screw-up .... who need not worry about rent or grocery money? Whose work schedule will be influenced by the prison shuttle - with the result that he will work hours not available to a 'good' kid?

Forgiveness may be divine .... but why don't we give non-felons 'a chance' first?

When they tell you they will be late because they have to meet their parole officer its a dead give away. Another sure fire clue when the parole officer comes to the office to verify employment.

Tattoos on the hands used to be a good clue but now days it does not really mean anything but the tattoo of a tear drop on the face does.

I also do some government work and the background checks will reveal a lot.

"So ah.... got convictions?" Not what you were arrested for just convictions? I guess you cant actually ask if they were in prison or jail - just convictions as you could serve time in either without an actual 'conviction' due to court circumstances or lack of fine, bail, or release.

If you were not convicted you did not commit a crime in the eyes of the law. Paris has a record OJ doesn't.

>>Joe Felon ... whose main qualification is that he's proven to be a screw-up .... who need not worry about rent or grocery money? Whose work schedule will be influenced by the prison shuttle - with the result that he will work hours not available to a 'good' kid?<<

That more or less describes the 3 jailbirds we have had (briefly) at my shop over the years. Not worth the trouble. I would like to believe you make judgements based on the individual, that is very high minded, but the two I have worked with were just screw-ups. Lazy and sent to the joint on drug offenses. That fundamental portion of their charachter did not change even after incarceration and none had his priorities straight or his *poop* together, and two ended up back in jail for parole violations committed in their private lives "off the clock" and outside of work. I have seen other posters speak of hightly motivated and directed ex-cons working constructively and hard to make lemonade out of the lemons their lives have delivered them, but it hasn't been my personal experience with ex-cons. Don't get me wrong, I hold out hope and would like to meet some like this, but the ones I have had the dubious pleasure to have known inside and outside work had mildly serious emotional and psychological problems which were the true source of their "bad luck" in life as well as their yen for and inability to resist life's darker side. Still it is a hard call to make. Boils down to your ability to size people up- all kinds of people. Based on my experience I lean moderately towards "no way".. Too many emotional and psychologial and personality issues that materialize as workers who can't get along with *whoever* and aren't dependable

We have the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act of 1974 here, which says that a conviction is considered "spent" after a certain period of time and does not have to be disclosed to prospective employers. More serious crimes resulting in long prison sentences are never "spent" though:

http://www.lawontheweb.co.uk/rehabact.htm

the big three that don't seem to work after release, are those convicted for violent crimes, sex crimes, and drug offenses.

I ask prospective employees if they are bondable. Their answer to that question will let me to know if they have a criminal record or not.

I guess the best way is put yourself in the customer's shoes. Would the customer be comfortable with a convicted felon working in their home or business? I would say that people would have a problem with someone convicted of murder, robbery or sexual assult.

The nature of the crime would be the deciding factor on hiring. Is their past going to hinder the business?

I work as an electrician in a county jail.

I had a hard working trusty ask me one time if he could apply for a job with us after he got out.

It was hard for me not to laugh.

The Sheriff does not hire former convicts.

In a way its funny, the Sheriff will not pay them to work there but will let them work for free while they are in jail.

I am a civilian not a guard. However, all Sheriff employees go through the same background check.

For the record, most trustys do not work hard, not even close.

Hello from South Dakota!!!!

Ok guys, here comes the soap box......stepping up....ahem.

I was convicted of several violent crimes and did my time in a max security prison. I was sentanced to 25 years. Spent 4 and a half years inside and was granted parole do to good behavior. I did another 8 years on parole without a hitch and was released from "being on paper".

Now acording to what you have said most would not even consider hiring me because it was a violent offense. My first job out of prison was as an apprentice and I thank God every day for the opportunity to learn this trade.

When I became a member on this web site I had already been out of prison for 12yrs. Do the math. I know that there are alot of guys out there that are not worth hiring, but I have to say that it is not what the person was convicted for that makes them a bad choice. It is the ones that have been in and out several times that you have to watch for. They didn't learn the lesson the first time.

As for me, I never went back to prison and have never commited another crime since. I specialize in service work, and my employer loves having me run jobs when the GC has an attitude(I don't take their crap). I love what I do, and dare I say I am good at it. The guys I work with have all become my friends, and they turn to me when they can't figure out the problems, or have questions.

As for your customers and other employees; They don't need to know the status of an ex-con. You don't tell them when your sending a guy that has been divorced do you?

I had a guy working for me that had been divorced 5 times, had kids with all 5 women, lost his drivers license for not paying chid support, and worked in 3 different states for 9 different employers. Give me an ex-con over that anyday!! Does any one ask on an application how many times someone has been married? NO! But wouldn't that give you an Idea about how stable a person is? I have been married happily for 11 years now, and have three wonderful children.

Don't judge a man for the crime he commited, someone else already did. In my expierience there are people convicted for all sorts of crimes that start thier lives over without any troubles. Just watch for the ones that have done it several times!

Stepping down........put soap box away........Thank you for listening.......

You make a good point. All three I have worked with had been in and out several times. Good insight.

You're right, customers don't need to know the status of an ex-con. However, I would be very uncomfortable sending someone who's been convicted of robbery to some rich old lady's house or a bank to do a job. Other places would be ok such as new construction, etc.

As far as divorce is concerned, an employee's personal life and what they do (within the law, of course) is none of an employer's business and is irrelevant to their job. But once you are convicted of a crime which affects society, then it does become relevant.

You sound like you got your life back in order. You're fortunate to have a stable job and I wish you success. But the reality is, it would be tough to convince many employers to hire someone who's been convicted of violent crimes, myself included.

While in business I hired a cop-killer who had served 18 years for murder. He was robbing lover's lane parkers and the cop was with a lady not his wife and tried to be a hero. That is why a short sentence for killing a cop. He was the best electrician and also the best person that I have ever met. He was one of my top foremen and helped lesser employees constantly. I think people do change and fortunately my experiences have mostly been with those who changed for the better.

There is a pretty big difference between getting a divorce and getting thrown in jail, I don't think the two are a fair comparison.

One of the best electricians I have ever known, the same man who taught me the trade, could out work any three men I know, who worked 6 and 7 day weeks 10-12 hours a day was also divorced 5 times. To say you could judge his character by is divorce rate is ludicrous at best.

Aren't you the several you are talking about?





Tell this to the victims of the crime.

I am going to lock this thread until the other mods read the negative remarks in the last post. I am going to let them decide if we should continue as i cant see this going positive at this moment.

njelectricmaster
Asked if i could reopen the thread ,
I was worried that it was going to turn into a mudslinging ordeal

Hello from South Dakota!!!!!!

First I would like to give an apology to anyone who might have taken offense to what I wrote. I mean no disrespect to the victims of violent crimes. They deserve all of our respect and support!

Second, I did not mean that all people who have been divorced are not good people. My point was that the one time I had to deal with a man that had that many marriages was terible. My own Father has been married 3 times. I was trying to show how judging people could look to others. I am truly sorry if I hurt anyone by my remarks.

I would like to give a little insight into Dnkldorfs last post. He was correct when he pointed out that I had been convicted of "several" crimes. What I failed to point out was that all the crimes I had been convicted of were all from the same act.

I guess, in short, my main point in telling you all these things is to open the hearts and minds of people that have never been in my situation. Not all people that commit a crime are bad people, and not all bad people are convicted of a crime.

In the six years that I have been a member of this site I have become comfotable enough to share these things. The people that frequent this site are the best at this trade and the most helpful and freindly people I have ever met. Hope I didn't make a mistake.

Jon

Interesting stuff Jon,
I will say that while I've never been to prison, I have had 3 DUI charges against my name.
Sure, I am not looking to minimise the seriousness of these convictions, I lost my drivers licence for some amount of months for each charge, but, my employer was kept in the picture each step of the way, for that I thank them for not sending me down the road.
It is not something I will be doing again, I've grown up since then.
Now, back to the topic of the OP, I would hire anyone regardless of thier background, sure sex offenders and to a degree convicted fraudsters and rapists probably wouldn't get a look in at work.
The thing is remorse.

My main concern would be if something turned up missing at a job; the ex-offender would be the lead suspect just because he's there.

Never mind that someone else is the culprit; people unfortunately jump to the easiest (usually wrong) conclusion. In fact, I know some people who have REFUSED to accept a set of master keys just because if there's something missing, they can't have the finger pointed in their direction.

He could be the most trustworthy guy on the face of the Earth, but an absentminded customer could easily misplace their wallet and start crying that "it must have been stolen".

Most of these guys have paid their debt and deserve a fresh start; the few who will be trouble will usually show themselves early enough that you can either not hire them or put them on a job where you can keep an eye on them.

Just to stir the pot some more ... and maybe help clarify our thinking .... let me ask:

Assume you find out that your boss is a convicted felon, with a very shaky past. How do you respond?

Indeed, is it proper for the boss to perform a 'background check' ... without fully disclosing to you THEIR dirty laundry?

This is an interesting thread. My cousin is a machinist. He went into the Navy and got out and fell into drugs, and alcohol. Long story short he got 3-7 for beating his girl up. He honestly looked like death walking. Jail was the best thing for him. He was on some bad stuff. 184lbs out of the Navy 130lbs going to jail. Anyway he is getting out in about 5 months. I just visited him the other day. I haven't seen him in over 3 years. He looks good back up to 185lbs. He tells me he wants to get a job in machining again. I told him he will have a problem with 2 felonies. I told him his best bet is to go into business for himself. Not to many companies are going to stick their necks out for him. He would be a huge liability to the company. What if he attacks someone and they didn't know he was a ex con. I personally won't have a problem working with an ex con. However I would like to know that he was one. Nothing like working beside jeffery dommer. "Oh by the way guess what I'm eating for lunch". I guess it all comes down to character. again interesting thread.

Six years ago, I was convicted of drug possesion and did a short sentence in a prison camp. It was a non-violent, first time offense. After my release, I came home to the small, conservative rural area where I had lived and worked as an electrician for 20 years. As in any small community, everyone was aware of my situation and a job was hard to come by, although I think it was more due to my erratic drug induced behavior before I was arrested than the fact that I had actually been to prison. One contractor was willing to take a chance on me and while he didn't pay me much, I was greatful for the job. He helped me get my feet back on the ground, and I made him money. I ended up moving from that area, but I will always be greatful for the opportunity he gave me when no one else would.

I am now in business for myself, and would not hesitate to hire a convicted felon, provided they were the right person for the job. Like any other prospective employee, you have to base your desicion to hire on their skills and ability, and whether or not they are a fit for your company. With an ex-offender you have to consider some other things as well. First, the type and severity of the crime. Violent offenders have a higher recividism rate than non-violent offenders, and sex offenders will almost certainly do it again, given the chance. Secondly, the number of times they have been convicted. The definition of insanity is making the same mistake over and over, expecting a different result. I would not knowingly hire a crazy person. Finally, another warning sign would be how honest they are about their past. Some one who lies on a job application or at an interview is obviously not the kind of person you could trust or want working for you.

I don't disagree that hiring a ex-con can be a chancy thing to do, and for some might be completely out of the question, but I will say there are many of us out there who made a mistake, paid the penalty and are ready to become productive members of society again. To dismiss us out of hand could be not only a disservice to us, but to yourself as well.

I wired houses, new construction, for a convict. It was hush-hush, nobody knew until his sex offender paperwork was found under the front seat of the truck.

He was the fastest, cleanest, wireman I've ever known. 3 of us roughed a 2500sqft house in 5 1/2 hours, and all the homeruns were run flat side-by-side and the all the wiring looked like it was ironed. Now, we didn't do the phone and tv, but still, thats flying.

Funny thing is, this guy is 6'6 250lbs solid and the nicest guy in the world. He could probably whoop 6 guys asses. Goes to church every Sunday. Never, ever, thought he could have been a con. He was one of the owners, and he had a couple of cons as foremen. It was a non-union shop, but they were all union before they went to prison. Just goes to show, electricians stick together in the big house.

Mountain Electrician,
Thanks for your post.
It seems to me that the police forces of the world seem to be taking on the more "victimless crimes" as opposed to the harder crimes, like violent crime and sex offenders.
Like a lot of things, the police these days, have been "dumbed down" to make them more Politically Correct.
I'm not looking to make a political statement here, but why is it that so many serious crimes never get solved?.
On the other side of the coin, I would employ a guy here looking to make a new start, I draw the line at Sex offenders and people charged with Fraud, the PoCo here was ripped off for $230,000 a few years back by a woman that ran our office.
I wouldn't touch a person that had "Theft as a Servant" on thier police record, with a 10 foot barge pole!.

Trumpy,
Here are some disturbing statitics from the US Bureau of Justice website:
"In 2005, over 7 million people were on probation, in jail or prison, or on parole at yearend 2005 -- 3.2% of all U.S. adult residents or 1 in every 32 adults."

At that rate, it seems that everyone will have to deal with either working along side or hiring some one with legal issues of some sort. Does that mean 3.2% of the adult population in the United States are hardened criminals? Hardly. But the criminal justice system needs some work, IMO.

Federal proscecutors have a conviction rate in the high 90's, and in 2005 the federal prisons were running at 134% capacity. Lots of "victimless crimes" , although that isn't an accurate statement as my wife and children suffered plenty while I was gone. The point is, the system is punitive not rehabiltative, and with a recividism rate around 70% it's obviously not working. I'm not sure it's meant to. With more and more privatization of state and federal prisons, it has become a big business and with an overall inmate population growth rate of 3.3% annually from 1995 to 2005, it's not likley to slow down soon.

I've seen the system from the inside, and it is not geared to keep people from coming back. It's heartbreaking to see the potential and talent that goes to waste as young people put themselves into this machine that keeps them revolving in and out of prison for the rest of their lives. To me our tax dollars would be much better spent figuring out ways to keep the non-violent first time offenders out of prison than paying to keep them in for years and years. Programs on a federal level that actually educate and train some first time offenders would be a great start. I had a huge advantage as I had a trade before I got in trouble and had knew what I was going to do when I was released. Most of the other inmates with charges similar to mine didn't have this advantage, and would be back. I tought a class on basic electrical wiring while I was in there, and the response was very positive and the class was always full.I volunteered to teach the class and put the cirriculum together myself or it never would have happened. I was amazed that in a minimum security facility that was supposed to be preparing inmates for intergration back into society, there were no vocational programs available. Untill something is done about these types of things, the status quo won't change.

Maybe I've gone off on a bit of a tangent, but it is something I feel strongly about, and IMO pertains to the original post as the issue of hiring or not hiring ex-offenders is not going away untill some sort of reform in instituted in our state and federal justice systems.

I don't know what the system is like in NZ, but here it needs an overhaul

My biggest problem with the US social system is there is nothing of substance between "kicked out of school" and prison.
We need more intervention programs for kids in trouble. It used to be the army but that is not politically viable these days.
We should also stop the stupid drug war but stupid "wars" seem to be a habit with us (ignoring the current mess in the middle east ... please)
We have "wars" on poverty, crime, alternate lifestyles or whatever is the current political football. They never work.
The drug war may be the dumbest, Say what you will about drugs, criminalizing them does nothing but fill the street with gunfire and jam prisons with people whose only crime is using or selling the wrong drug. On the other hand if you are using the right drugs (something you bribed a doctor to sell you) you are just taking medicine, even if it is the same drug. Alcohol and nicotine are billion dollar businesses.
We learned nothing from prohibition, in spite of the direct parallels. Legalize drugs and tax them. Turn a $500 million dollar expense into a $500 million windfall revenue increase and the number of addicts will probably stay about the same. At least we could treat addiction as a medical problem, not a crime.

If you think I am crazy, answer this question
Which drug kills the most people in this country, causes the most lost productivity and has the most addicts ... hint, it is legal. We even have an open thread about people trying to quit right here.

I'm an electrical supervisor for the feds in a multi prison complex in Florida. I totally agree that there are not enough training programs here to keep inmates from returning to a life of crime when they leave. I've taken it upon myself to put together a training program to teach the basics to the inmates that are on my work detail.
I agree with what was said about treating each one as an individual. Most of the inmates that I've worked with are more than willing to learn the trade, and are always eager to go out and do the work. And it's been satisfying to hear that someone that I trained is now working in the trade on the street and is doing well.
If I was ever in the position to hire an ex con, I would. If the person is qualified for the job, I would have no problem with that.