I hope I am not the only one who occassionaly has this problem? I often will refuse to cut cabinetry, depending on its value... And will have either the GC or cabinet maker do it. Same goes for certain other finishes or the like.

Just about all the time, I get asked how big the hole needs to be, how big is the plate, etc, etc.... I answer, and leave it in the capable hands of someone who should have the where-with-all to deal with wood... As I intentionally try to stay ill equiped for such tasks.

However, I have often returned to far worse butchering than I could do if I were on on very illegal drugs or had a history of chilhood mercury/lead cocktail consumption.

Not long ago I returned to see a guy finishing up with a saws-all, what he started with a hole saw. Two 2 1/2" holes over-lapping with the middle cut out - it had so much room to move that getting it in was not the problem - keeping it in there was! And to top it all off, there was no way to have the box level without showing a gap.... Several thousand dollar gaff! GC, after trying to get my employer to chip in for what his guy did, because I didn't leave his guy with clear instructions with the box I left him. But other guys seem to have a problem with these types of boxes as well - even if they are trying to do just a square 3 1/4 X 2 1/8 cut out.... I come back to a 3 1/2 X 2 1/2+, or my favorite - 3 X 4". And I get - "the plate will cover that right?"

I used to have a steel template that I loaned to a cabinet maker that did not get returned. But I recently came across a decent drawing program, and have been doodling around with it. So far this is what I have:
http://www.markhellerelectric.com/1gcutin.jpg

It is a work in progress, and was wondering if there are any suggestions, other than trying to get it to print to scale on a single page???

Mark:

When we did kitchen remodels, we left the cables hanging out with about 3 feet of slack. When the cabinets were being placed, all that we asked for was a reasonable hole to permit the cables to pass. We would come in and wire up the old-work boxes (always metal), install the devices and leave the boxes hanging there. The cabinet people would then know exactly what needed to be mounted and the box dimensions (the finished box was right there in front of them). With about two feet of slack in the cable(s), it seemed to be easy enough for the cabinet guys to get the cutout right and in the correct location. They would just screw the boxes to the cabinet through the box ears and install the plates that we left them. This strategy generally worked well.

The over-sized holes stem from the large use of plastic old-work boxes that are assumed by the cabinet guys as being the norm. Using metal boxes, you gain about an extra 1/8" all the way around. It doesn't sound like much, but when it comes to plate coverage, it can make a huge difference.

Now bear in mind, we worked with more upscale kitchen remodeling companies that were willing to pay a little more to get it done right.

Print it on plastic. (overhead projector tranparancy material) two per page.

I always cut in my boxes.
Cover the area with blue painter tape, Do my marking then cut it with a Jig saw. So far it has come out perfect.

One time i had the GC's employee cut in a box in a 4x6 lower window ledge. Who i must say was a true craftsman.

Ed, I do slightly the same thing spare getting the cab guys (More premidonna than what us electricians are made out to be) to do it. That wouldn't fly in the local climate unfortunately. And I am often not on site when the cabs arrive, and weary of letting them cut with the wire in the hole.

I too am a metal box guy myself. Not too fond of the plastic cut-in. Over cut a plastic one and you're done.

And Niko, although it should go without saying that the wood be protected when cutting - you're right, I should put that on there.

I'm all but too capable to cut my own, but wiegh the option against the multi-K$ of the multi-trade back-charge with the slightest slip. Thinking that if they do it, it's their problem...

Personally I like to pre-drill the holes then go for the roto-zip, or just roto-zip the whole thing. Then put a 1/4" straight router bit in it for the ears. Then some #4 wood screws for support. Otherwise I have been leaving them the actual box I am going to use - which has become accepted policy locally - then let them figure it out, thinking they are capable of doing so. As said, I unfortunately been proven wrong a few times.

Mark: nice, neat, simple drawing. How about adding a note or a table to adjust for 2-gang and up? I'm impressed that you covered the screwless wallplates, also!

I'm sure a printing or graphics pro could get this set up for you sized 1"=1" if you wanted to give somebody a template, but why bother? Carpenters and cabinet-makers should be able to measure. They certainly don't get the building prints at 1-to-1.

I had made up templates for old work boxes on thin sheets of Lucite. I could hold the template up to the surface and trace the inside of it. I also added the horizontal and vertical centerlines on the template.

Mark, for larger-than-stock forstner bit sizes of holes, of any shape, I make a female template, basically a hole cut in a 1/2" plywood plate with a jigsaw and filed/sanded to final size. Yes, you can file wood! With your router fitted with a stock collar, it's a cinch to cut out any shape accurately, the collar follows the template. I use a 30mm OEM collar on my Makita and usually 1/2" [12.7mm] diameter straight bits which means a 2" x 3 1.4" hole needs a 17.3mm bigger hole; say nominal 99.8mm x 68.1mm. I use electronic vernier calipers to assess template sizes. The radius left in the corners can he filed out with a sharp rasp. You need to fix the plate to the surface to datum lines with clamps or double sided tape, and you need clearance for the router base of course, [ not always possible, that's when you decline the work!]. However, the method means it's impossible to cut the hole too big. Carbide tip cutters will cut practically any material except nails. I use this method to house newel posts, handrail sections, cut mortises, etc., and easily get accuracy of less than 0.005" When someone of limited skills and intelligence is butchering the job and delaying you getting paid, I reckon it's time to do your own.

Alan

I always use a ROTO-ZIP. I have never had a problem. Paneling, floor receptacles in wood flooring etch. Dont buy one and go right for the cabinets. You have to practice and get use to using it on wood and sheet-rock. Otherwise it will jump and runnaway, and you will left with a soup sandwich.

That's funny, Brian. I know exactly what you are saying about practice. I bought mine through a TV informercial about five years ago and I am still afraid to use it. You definintely need to get used to it, just like riding a bike or driving a car.

I imagine a rotozip handles like a router (it basically an HO guage router anyway)
I do know you need to cut into the direction of the cutter so it is fighting your advance, not "helping" you. Otherwise it will get away from you. You also want the cutter holding you against a guide if you are using one. I may not be explaining it right but I do have some arrows scratched into the case of my router to remind me which way to set up the piece.

No matter how hard you try, you just can’t cut fine wood work with a pair of Kleins, and make it look good. This is exactly why I exclude cutting patching and painting on my proposals. The template is a good idea but you are still on the hook if it comes out wrong, even if it’s not your fault. What works well for me is I give them a cut-in box and a plate to use as a template, if they screw that up than they can blame Raco and Hubbell.

Sometimes even if there is room....

Alan other than that, hows the tractor?

I also agree that a roto-zip does take some getting used to, but once you do, it becomes a tool of choice. With a sharp wood bit, and a steady hand you can cut a wide variety of things... If I remember correctly - the guy who started the brand (now owned by bosch) was an electrician? Who modified laminate router bits to dive cut wood, and essentially repurposed routers. Basically put what he saw rockers do to new uses - and branded a name....

All the ideas on templates are great, but I'm gonna stick with paper, or pdf that I can leave on my site. As I have found out before, if I hand off the template, I'm never going to see it again.

There are also pre-made templates available. scroll about half way down til you get to the EZCut.

http://www.hometech.com/tools/general.html

Not to pick nits, but necessary is spelled wrong. Great idea. Nice template.

Cut from left to right on an edge facing you, and go clockwise cutting holes. I try to use bearing guided cutters if possible in a template or on a staight edge, and don't buy cheap cutters. Take small cuts commensurate with the power and diameter of the bit. The 1/2" Makita is 2.5hp and with care and a good grip I have freehanded 2" diameter molding bits, but a table mounted machine is safer for the inexperienced. A table mounted machine usually cuts wood right to left. Norm has a good table design on the NYW site.
Tractor is on hold, other urgent stuff withstanding, but due for a paint job this summer if I can get her off the bloody thing!


Alan

I measure a standard cover plate as being a tad more than 4-3/8" high. The 4-1/4" you spec for the routed-out area is pushing right to the hairy edge of that. I'd feel more comfortable with 4-1/8" there.

Also, found the note, 'Optional 1/8"+ routed area', to be unclear. (As in, I couldn't figure out what the heck you were talking about.) Now that I've figured out what you were talking about, the notes make sense. But I had a hard time getting there from the notes. (I guess I saying that I found it confusing, but I don't know how to state it more clearly.)

"but I don't know how to state it more clearly." Well that seems to be my problem too. Its a tough thing to decribe...

The little routed out area is only for screwless plates, as most of the Lutron devices end up being proud of the surface once the plate goes on when using this type of box. Plastic boxes end up sticking out more...

That was part of my problem in trying understanding this, as I have never actually seen a switchbox that was mounted using recesses like you are describing. Were it not for the fact that I happen to have an Insteon dimmer with precisely that problem (to wit, I tried to put a screwless plate on it, and it stood out from the wall, so I reverted to a standard screw-on plate), I probably never would have figured out what you were talking about.

One tool I always have on the truck is a very coarse wood file, half round. It can eat away material quickly, just make sure to push downward on veneered surfaces! This way I cut my box holes tight, and can open them up a bit if need be. The round side is great for those riser holes that are a tad off.

I use the blue tape too, only I put it on my jig saw shoe instead of on the cabinet