My wife has a new career, site manager in a big gated community and she wanted some advice. They want power in a golf course rest room. It is about 800' (maybe 1000 by the time you get pipe in the ground where you have to go) from the guard shack across 2 private roads so I suggested that is not really that attractive an option. There is a street light right next to the building as part of ones that loop around the community with a christy box right there. It does look like these have individual photo cells for each post.
What voltage would I likely find there and is this a viable option. They probably only want a single 20a circuit for a couple lights and a couple fart fans. I am guessing it may be 277 on the street light but I fear it could be higher. What are these typically?

Greg:

There is one condersation i may have to speak up on this issuse right there is the street lumiaires setup i belive they were sized for correct voltage drop for the run but if you add this to the street lumiaire it can screw up the voltage drop depending on which way it runs.

typically most resdentail street lumaires useally wired for 120 or 240 volt single phase voltage but some do wired on 277 single phase as well but not too widespread unless you are on commeral lot or commercal feed [ 480Y-277 Volts system ]

Myself i did see few place what you been describing the result was pretty messy after they hook up a single 20 amp circuit but they did not account the voltage drop in the whole system

you may have to check the voltage at the post base to verify it but hard part is find the source to first lumiaire then go from there

Merci , Marc

Map it out, and check the loads, you may be able to put a transformer out there, and solve the problem.

It's not unheard of for street lighting circuits to have a rather unique transformer / wiring arrangement as part of the way to deal with voltage drop and damaged lights.

I really would not attempt to change the lighting circuit, in any way, unless I was absolutely certain as to how the circuit was wired. It goes beyond anything as simple as taking reading from your meter.

Otherwise ... and here you know the site, and I don't .... I'd consider planning for more power in the future. I can see there being a vending machine, a heater, and even a snack bar added at some future date.

The more I am finding out about this the less likely it is an option. They may have a flat rate (not metered) deal on the lights from FOP. I told them they should really find out what the deal really is and also to find out what FPL wants to just set a meter on the bathroom building. I figure getting under those roads will probably cost as much or more than a drop (underground lateral) from FPL since it looks like thery are already on the near side of the closest road.
Thanks for your help

I will agree with Reno- Stay away from the street lighting. I know it seems to be the easy fix but I still think its a bad idea. In my area a lot of the street lighting is 277 volt. They are usually wired on a 3 pole breaker. 1st pole uses phases A & B- 2nd pole uses phases B & C - 3rd pole uses phases C & A. Then it gets repeated this way. It keeps everything pretty balanced.
I think the best way is to run a large conduit and figure on pulling a large enough wire for a 100 amp sub panel. You may only use 20 amps now but in the future ...

I doubt this will ever get much load. It is just a "2 holer" bathroom in the middle of a golf course. The biggest load I can see would be a water cooler ... but I could be wrong. They might go for a couple window shakers or something. The more I think about this the stronger I am leaning towards getting FPL to drop a meter there if they will do it. I am not sure how much more I am getting involved but I think the next step is to talk to the FPL engineer.
I looked again on the satellite photos and plotted the course from the guard shack, based on the published length of the closest golf hole to get the scale. It looks like about 700 feet using the likely path we will have to take and we would also be boring under 2 private roads. I can't imagine that is cheaper than the FPL option.
I really get the idea these folks were trying to sneak this in without a permit and I wouldn't touch that with a 700' pole.

Two fans and a water cooler, in Florida, in a small building used only during the day by folks playing golf?
How about a solar panel setup?

Alan

I blame Bob Vila for most of this...

His idea of electricity is to just find somewhere where there is power and "tap off" to feed something else.

In my experience, anytime that something sounds simple generally isn't.

Besides, little loads tend to get bigger as the design progresses. The little water cooler suddenly gets some new friends like a pop machine, candy machine, then someone wants ice cream, ad infinitum, ad nauseum.

I would suggest that the 'tap the nearest power' idea get deep sixed; and the little building fed the right way (with its own feeder/branch circuit(s)).

Solar is looking more attractive the more I look at it. They really only want a fan and light ... during the day

greg,
I think Alan Belson has the right idea. You have sunshine, use it.
Alan--

Bump!
That a great point you have there! Thanks for bringing that up.

Solar may be ok if that is all they are going to have, but you can bet, security lighting will be next, then how about a small air AC unit, so if you sell them on solar and then they come back with a bigger wish list your in trouble.

Suddenly, a simple 2-can bathroom out on hole 10 for us prostrate-challenged seniors turns into an air-conditioned 24 hour gourmet-restaurant with searchlights.

Maitre d' "Has Sir actually booked a table? We are rather busy tonight. I may be able to fit you and your good lady in behind the paper towel dispenser in about half an hour."

Crazy is right, that is exactly what happend at out county course and the transportation center, they started out only wanting security lights, and it turned into a full a list of wants, the guy that wired them assumed only security lighting.

If you really want to se how jobs can change from a simple request into a nightmare try dealing with the board on these gated communities, one member will want just the lights, then as soon as you start the job, another member, will come up with his idea, now the fun really starts, the whole board starts calling, in other contractors to look at the job you started, one member doesn't have any idea what the other is doing, then you find out, their rules din't allow the president of the board to approve you little lighting job, the guy looking to get the new vote for president is fighting with everyone. Crazy does not even describe, what a small light, in an out house can lead to, when your dealing with a gated community.

Then someone complains when they towel dispenser runs empty that they should have electric hand dryers...and the saga continues.

I think you need something like this, and if they want more power, just keep adding units.
http://www.solarlighting.com/product_sheet_SILK_series.html

LK, Ghost .... are you trying to re-create "the never-ending story?"

"Solar is looking more attractive the more I look at it. They really only want a fan and light ... during the day"

How about skylights and a window?

Humm sound pretty tempting to recreate this story again

I am sure it will anyway

Merci , Marc

Scott, has the best idea yet sky light, but I am making a engineering change on the window, and installing a chicken coop vent, and changing the sky light, to a sun catcher, a sky light on the course, may be dangerous.

Marc, can we have another of your everlasting stories, s'il tu plait?

Alan

Okay; here's a movie title that made me laugh...

"THE NEVER-ENDING STORY - PART 2"

OK I managed to actually get a look at this and sneek in 18 holes of golf (I really needed to be able to see it like the customer would).
These do have skylights
I looked at the other "2 holers" to see what they were trying to accomplish and It will just be a fan with a light ... BUT they also have small ice machines at the others so that will be next. I am thinking they should probably drop a multiwire 20a in there at a bare minimum but a small panel is a better plan. They may be thinking about a single 20 for all of this. They have a bid to get the wire in the ground and wire it up for $6,000.
I think I am just going to back off and let them follow their plan but I still want to review the plan to see if they understand little things like voltage drop and the code issues.

Sanity may prevail here. Once they really figured out how much it will cost to do it the wrong way it is starting to look like the right way (FPL setting a meter on the building) may end up being a lot cheaper.
I am amazed at the lengths people go to, avoiding getting a permit and doing things the right way.
They hit a fiber a couple days ago on another job so they are starting to see the dangers of digging near the road.

Well FPL finally got around to returning the proposal. It turns out doing things the right way ends up being a whole lot cheaper than bootlegging in a feeder. The bid on the feeder was $4000. FPL wants $250 to provide 120v (probably from the street lights) and $750 to set a transformer and provide 240v. They are going for the 120v if FPL will actually do it.
The story is the engineer may nix the 120 option once it finally gets down to doing it, in spite of saying they would. It may help that they really only want 20-30a.

Greg,

Around here most street lights are 120 V unless you are near the interstate crossings and the big HPS lights. They usually are 277/480 volt lights. As for digging up here you have to call an 800 tel. number or else it could cost you a big fine from the utility co. There was 1 person just this week trying to dig in new water services when he hit a high voltage underground feeder cable. The sparks were flying that day.

Utility companies in New Jersey have the legal authority to levy fines???! How in the world does that work? I thought that was a function reserved to the government; how in the heck did we get to such a corrupt place that private companies are levying fines?

No, it is a civil fine but the utility could be the one that reports you.



It's pretty much the same all over, if you don't simply call the free utility marking number and go ahead and dig up a utility you will be liable for all damages and the fines.

OK, that's more-or-less how it should work. That's a huge difference from "a big fine from the utility co."

Solarpowered, it's likely a matter of grammar....

The PoCo, as a "Publicly Regulated Utility," is granted certain governmental abilities (such as eminent domain) and exemption from certain laws (like anti-trust). With the involvement of a "Public Utility Commission" it's no longer a "private" company.

What is most likely what happens is that, like any governmental body, the PoCo can ask the courts to impose a fine. The only difference is that the penalties paid go to some place besides the local town. Where? Well, you'ld have to look to your statutes for that answer. Best bet is they are diverted to some 'fund' that is used for some other 'public interest.'

The way this came about, and the reasons for it, are a bit beyond the scope of this thread.

There's really nothing 'corrupt' in assessing penalties for your breaking things you could have / were required to have done to prevent the damage from happening in the first place. Plus paying to fix them.

I want to make it clear that I don't have a problem with fines being assessed for breaking things. My concern is about exactly how that is done.

Going back to basic Civics 101, our government, as originally designed, has three branches: the legislative, executive, and judicial. The legislature makes the laws. The executive puts the laws into effect. And the judiciary enforces the laws. This Separation of Powers is designed to help protect our liberty by preventing too much power from being concentrated in a single place.

The idea that was supposed to be enshrined in our Constitution is that when one is accussed of a crime, he is brought before the judiciary before a disinterested judge or jury, both sides have the opportunity to present evidence, the accused has the opportunity to confront his accusers, and said judge or jury renders a verdict.

This process has in the last century been corrupted by the creation of administrative agencies, such as OSHA and the EPA, that have the ability to function as lawmaker, judege, jury, and executioner. This is an unconstitution breech of the Separation of Powers required by our Constitution, and of the concept of limited government.

My concern here what that this corruption had further spread to giving private companies (even if "Publicly Regulated Utilities") the ability to levy fines. It appears that my specific concern was unwarranted, and that Harold simply misspoke. (And I'm sure he was more concerned with making sure people know that one can get into some major trouble by digging into a line than he was in the Civics of the whole thing, so I'm not intending to pick on him.)

Wow, we certainly made a mountain out of a mole hill.

Again the 'fine' has nothing more to do with the utility than a fine assessed for vandalizing an ECs office would have to do with the EC.

OK, I'll admit to being guilty on that count!

Peace!

LOL

It's not like I have ever been guilty of that..

Bob:
Upon your eloquent quoting of the NJ Statute....I'll have to make you an honarary 'Jersey Guy'

Stay safe

Bob,

I maybe wrote my post wrong. I will double check my facts and get back to this board. It wouldn't be the first time I put my foot in my mouth. I just seem to remember that fines could be issued when someone dug up the wrong wires when they didn't call the 800 number. I thought that ATT had some powerful rules when someone dug up their "Long Lines" before wireless and satellites became popular.

I just got off the phone with the POCo rep. in my area and she said that you can get fined up to $10,000 for not calling into the 1-800 DIG number. I asked her who gives the fine, they POCO? She said it didn't come from them she believed it came from the state and she believed that the state ran that 1-800 DIG number. I will look into it more if you want.

Check out this website:

http://www.njua.org/html/call_before_you_dig.html

There is information there.