I have a customer who is wanting some information on the compact flourescent bulbs that go in lamps etc.. to save on energy. I have not got any in my house so I don't really have an input. Do they give off as much light as a regular incandescent? I do think they make some now that will fit into fixtures with a globe on them. I went into one man's house a while back, and he had to leave the globes off his light fixtures to use the bulbs. Looked sort of tacky though.
My customer, who is also my neighbor, is thinking replacing all of her lights, but don't want to spend that much money on something that she might not be pleased with. I think she ought to try a few and experiment with them. What are your thoughts on this? Thanks ... Steve
Link to 50 Page Sylvania CF catalogI keep a copy of this catalog on all my service trucks just so we can figure out which CF we need to order. It has a cross reference guide and details lumen output and form factors.
I am for CFL's, but with caution. Here are some typical Lumen numbers (Inc-Incandescent).
40W-Inc @ 450
9W-CFL @ 500
60W-Inc @ 800
13W-CFL @ 775
75W-Inc @ 1000
18W-CFL @ 1075
100W-Inc @ 1500
26W-CFL @ 1500
32W-CFL @ 2000
These will all vary depending on the manufacturer, the lamp (and ballast combination), the ambient temperature, and other factors.
My caution is there seem to be some real poor CFL lamps available (both in percieved light and short ballast life). I wish that I knew which ones (my experience was with TCP which were the biggest waste of money I have ever done in lighting). Look for a minimum CRI (Color Renditioning Index) of 82. You will likely have to go to the manufacturers literature.
Some express the opinion that an incandescent fixture is not listed for using CFL's and thus CFL's are not allowed. CFL's of the proper listed styles for the fixture, and not exceeding the fixtures wattage are allowed.
Shane
The CFL's take a bit of getting used to. I have a few here and now that I'm used to them they're fine. Remind your customer that if she has any lighting controlled by a dimmer that it'll have to be taken out of the circuit.
There are a few CFLs available that are supposed to work with dimmers, but they are hard to find. I have not tried any of those out, so I don't know how well they work. They also make CFLs that work in 3-way lamps.
Pay attention to the color temperature of the CFLs. Most people will probably prefer the lower temperature lamps ("warm white"), as they produce a more reddish light similar to incandescents. Some CFLs produce a whiter light (sometimes sold as "daylight" bulbs or something similar), and these produce a very white, almost bluish light. I currently have a 5-lamp fixture in my house that has 3 warm white CFLs and 2 "daylight" CFLs. It looks rather odd, and I am going to replace the 2 with warm white CFLs to get them all the same color.
I believe dimmable Cfls are available
CFL's have come a long way; I have VOLUNTARILY changed all my household bulbs to CFL's. Here's what I've learned over the past six years or so:
- A rough conversion of size is 4x the CFL watts = Normal lightbulb watts.
- CFL's tend to run almost forever - or crap out within a month. A fairly high percentage will not last six months. I attribute this to poor quality control.
- Most CFL's are physically larger than the equivalent 'normal' bulb, so there will be problems with light trims and globes.
- The perceived heat given off by a CFL is notably less than that of a 'normal' bulb. Especially in summer, you WILL notice the difference.
- CFL's are available in different 'color temps.' I have found my preference has changed to the "daylight' types. Even the 'cool white' seems too yellow now.
- CFL's perform well in the weather, and rough service. For example, one has served well in my trouble light. The also perform well in cold weather, even into the teens.
- CFL's take maybe 15 minutes to reach full brightness.Personally, I like this trait when I first awake. Especially in cold weather, this warm up period is noticeable, and folks will often think something is wrong.
I have not encountered any CFL's that can be dimmed, despite the claims of politicians and the trade press. I suspect that, like LED's, the dim-able CFL exists only in the marketing departments.
I have done two projects that had an abundance of recess light fixtures lamped with Phillips dimming compact fluorescent lamps. The first one I did was 5 or 6 years ago and then I paid $25 each. Last Decembers job the cost per each was less than $10. Regular Lutron dimmers work fine with them, but they drop out at about 20 % unlike incandescent lamps when dimmed way down.
I suggest that the installation date be written on the ballast housing of CF lamps, so that you have some idea of how long they last, and know when you've gotten bad ones that should be replaced under warranty.
Also be cautious with enclosed fixtures; some fixtures get too hot for some lamps because there is no airflow.
-Jon
I suspect that, like LED's, the dim-able CFL exists only in the marketing departments.
Dimmable LED's do exist, have installed them several times. CFL's I have not found to be dimmable yet.
The biggest thing that annoys me about CF bulbs is they're somewhat dim when starting up. It takes them a few moments to get up to full brightness, so when you first walk into a room, it will be a little bit on the dark side for a short while. I also don't like the bit of "flicker" they make on start-up.
Once they're warmed up however, they're fine, almost no difference between them and incandescent lighting. In fact, they make great replacements in those NuTone and Broan range hoods fans, where incandescent bulbs almost immediately discolor the lens... or any application where plastic lenses become discolored by heat from incandescent bulbs. My basement kitchen has one of those "low-end" hoods that always had the filter lens getting an ugly brown spot from the heat of the bulb. Lower wattage and different sized incandescents didn't help. Put a CF in there and the filter lens assembly stays like new... and the wife is happy!
They're also ideal for applications where "over-lamping" would violate a luminaries rating (as I learned is okay here). You can really push out a lot light from luminaries that are inadequate with a "higher output" CF that's within the luminaires wattage rating.
Given my obvious disdain for all things "green" I bet many of are surprised to hear me - of all people - extolling the virtues of CF bulbs. But I have to be honest, and therefore, I can find little fault with these bulbs themselves. What bothers me is the idea that using them will somehow have an effect on climate. That's ridiculous.
Perhaps the biggest downsides with the bulbs are those who use PLC type lighting and home automation systems, like X10 or Insteon. Those devices usually tend not to get along very well with CF bulbs. If you're lucky (or unlucky) enough to have Lutron, it's usually not a problem.
I agree with Reno though on quality control of those bulbs... either they last forever or fail right away. Thought it was just me! But that's another benefit of these bulbs, you don't need to change bulbs often. Less trips up the ladder is a good thing!
Joe
I do quite a bit of restoration work (my specialty is the reproduction of antique light fixtures) and have found CFL's to be abn excellent replacement for incandescents in many antique designs, as long as the fixture has an opal shade or diffuser. The many "Scientific" fixtures (usually intended for commercial, industrial, or institutional installations) produced in the two decades after the introduction of the Mazda C lamp (Gas-filled, coiled coil tungsten filament, 100-300 watt) among which are the so-called "Schoolhouse" fixture, and most of the semi-indirect units of the 1920's, offer excellent light distribution and quality. They were replaced in general useage because of the superior efficiency of fluorescent fixtures. Modern CFL lamps work extremely well in these fixtures if the installer takes care to position the socket so that the center of illumination of the CFL is located in approximately the same position as the center of illumination of the incandescent lamp for which the fixture was intended. One must always remember that the high wattage incandescents of the 1920's and 1930's were considerably larger than those of the modern era, and that the efficiency of vintage fixtures suffers terribly when modern replacements are used without the proper adjustments. WHen used porperly, however, the CHL can give these eighty year old fixtures a new lease on life.
What bothers me is the idea that using them will somehow have an effect on climate. That's ridiculous.
Baby steps in the right direction, rather than trying to move heaven and hell. Although, some make small changes seem that way...
Good idea with the dates winnie. I have done that over the last 10 years on my normal filament lamps and the CFL lamps.
Haven't had any faillures yet, some of my lamps have hour meters on them and have done between 206 and 13499 hrs. (highest reading).
Ok the ones we use are the 230 V 50 Hz ones. most are Philips brand.
[quote=JJM]Perhaps the biggest downsides with the bulbs are those who use PLC type lighting and home automation systems, like X10 or Insteon. Those devices usually tend not to get along very well with CF bulbs. /quote]
Joe: Would you please expand on "not to get along very well"? I have a houseful of X10 controls, but thus far only one floor lamp with CFL's on an X10 appliance (non-dimming) module. It repeatedly turns itself on. I have gotten in the habit of switching off the units by hand at night, which kind of defeats the purpose of having X10.
I haven't gotten into Insteon yet.
There are a few likely scenarios...
One scenario could be the "local sense" control on the X10 appliance module is charging up the CF ballast, resulting in discharge noise of sufficient mV around the 120 KHz band to trigger the lamp back on. Assuming this is the problem (does it occur when a regular incandescent bulb is used?) there is a simple way to modify the module to disable local sense control. There are also appliance modules available that give you the option of disabling local control, which is preferable when CF bulbs are controlled.
The other scenario could simply be excessive line noise from some CF bulbs. I've seen some CF bulbs generate over 600mV pulses on my X10 signal analyzer, as well on the scope. You see their "clipping" noise dropping well into the 120 KHz range near zero on a 60 Hz waveform. They also extend enough into the 131.65 KHz Insteon range, wreaking havoc on there too. In this case, filters are needed or "better" CF bulbs.
Let's face it, when X10 was invented in the mid 1970s, there was no such thing as CF bulbs, so we have to adapt to mixing new technology with old and deal with the resultant issues... sometimes by trial and error.
Or you could simply be experiencing typical X10 problems, which have nothing to do with the CF bulbs at all. A whole house blocking coupler over the netural in the panel, and a whole house phase coupler amplifier repeater are "standard issue" items for reliable X10 control... yes X10 can be made to be VERY reliable.
Joe
P.S. Sorry to hijack this thread somewhat. I'd understand if the moderators saw fit to move it under a separate X10 topic.
I don't have this problem with incandescents in floor lamps, though I have a wall switch in the bathroom that gets notional now and then.
Thanks, Joe! Good info!
My outdoor landscape floods have all been replaced with CF's. I have no problem with the X-10 controlling all four circuits.
jkochan: What type of CFL are you using in the outdoor floods?
