Branch circuit to a residential cooktop

[This message has been edited by txsparky (edited 10-17-2002).]

Oh man, I've got a hornet's nest of an entire house that looks like this garbage coming up next week. I'll get pix. A "rescue job" renov and botched rewire... Forgot my camera when I was there yesterday, they had #14 120V circuits on 2 pole 30A CBs, the main bus has has several shorts (burned, pitted, carbon, etc...) from errant and too short EGC's, a 2" LB full of NM cable, and that's some of the errors in the new servcie just to start... Plus, the guy has the attitude that he's doing me the favor of giving me work! And had the gaul to complain of the price! Auuuugh!

Oh... stop me... A pix is worth 1000 words and I'll have some Monday!

<back on topic> I can relate Donnie! Oh boy, can I relate!

the infamous 'flyin splice' , alive & well .....

Just laziness, isn't it.
People that do work to these standards,
should be lined up against a wall and shot,as
they never have to fix them up, it's normally someone else, later on in the life of the installation.

It looks like captire coming out of the wall. Did they cut the plug off and wire it direct?

This shelf was crammed full of metal pans and the flex was laying on top of them

jdevlin....The wire is 10-2 Type NM on a 2p30 amp breaker.Pretty sure the same thing exists behind the built-in oven.

Replace the BX with Romex and the wirenuts with British-type "choc block" connectors, and it would look all too familiar.....

I see a lot of these. It's usually from a DIY'er doing some rewire or new installation based on the advice from the orange vest guys. I know ya'll don't like those orange vest guys, but they do help my income.

Bob

Existing installation.........
Can a box be added to contain the splices,or If we work on it does the circuit have to be replaced w/4wire? What if a new cooktop is being installed at existing location?
My take on this is that if the circuit needed to be relocated,such as in a remodel,a new 4 wire is required.I'm just questioning whether this requirement applies to replacing appliances.

'Another "Suck-Cessfull" Installation By Your Friendly Neighborhood EE - Lekk - Trishun'

At least there's a glass bowl to catch water as it runs back down the "Drip-Loop", which keeps the flying splices from being submersed in water / oil / booze / etc.

Also the glass bowl can double as an insulated disconnect device - just in case someone gets caught in a ground fault, or in the slim possibility of a fault at the exposed Conductors.

BTW, all except the stuff at the top are extreme jokes. The top part is justified by the spelling - making it "Dumber Than Dirt"

Scott S.E.T.

I see now that sub standard wiring is "alive" & well across the pond!
I see similar things done all the time, but of course we use 240V over here.
Got to agree with Trumpy, they should be lined up..........

Unfortunately, we come across the frightening work of others. Such violations, especially if it poses a potential hazard should be brought to the attention of the homeowner (in writing is best).

David,
It'll be 240V on that circuit pictured above as well, although admittedly "only" 120V to ground.

Cute picture... too bad we run across this stuff too much.
However, you've heard the saying "the shoe maker's children have no shoes"? It would be the electrician's house that has romex stapled to the drywall ceiling with temp. pigtail sockets where I wanted lights... Really, I'm planning on remodeling some time... Honest. **Grin**

Hee hee, must be a WV thing!



[This message has been edited by sparky66wv (edited 10-21-2002).]

That looks like the light in my bedroom. What were you doing there with a camera, hmmmm???

But I have a valid reason for my pig tail.

The wires in the ceiling are so brittle that were I to smush them back into the ceiling box as I raise the fixture, it would crack the insulation. I discovered that when I was painting and was going to replace the existing deteriorated fixture anyway.

The previous occupant had used two 100 watt bulbs in a fixture rated for two 60s!!!

I intend to rewire sometime this coming year. God willing....

Erm, am I blind or is there just a red, a black and a green wire, meaning it's just 240V, no neutral?????
Sven, please take pics when you rewire!!!!!!!!!!!!

The wires in my house are all two-conductor BX cable and it's all 110 volt service (across hot-neutral).

If I can borrow a digi-cam, I will certainly take pictures. :-)

Of course I can't tell what the colors are because the insulation on the wire is the cloth-covered rubber type and is quite black because of the dirt (and the heat).

By the way Tex, are pigtail sockts like the one pictured also used in Europe or do you take a standard socket from a lamp and a shortpiece of two-conductor lamp cord and put it all together (home-made pigtail)?

[This message has been edited by SvenNYC (edited 10-23-2002).]

In this area, removing the flying splice would be removing the hazard. 4x4, romex clamp, flex connector and flex strap would take care of the hazard. The neutral/ground bond in the appliance can be left until a new unit is installed, or the existing is relocated.

Is this cooktop actually 120/240 volt? I've seen a lot of 240 volt units also.

Al

All homemade. Standard socket and 2 pieces of solid THHN. Strip connector to hook up everything.
If this is going to be a little more permanent lamp cord. Have made up dozens of these, they're commonly used when fixtures are taken off for painting or other ceiling/wall repairs. Currently I have 8 of them hanging in an appartment undergoing a total renovation (where the pics of the switch and the 3way tap came from, all removed by now and replaced with Schuko receptacles, fed by THHN in PVC flex conduit, all protected by 13A breakers)

txsparky, I just fixed one like this yesterday, Although I had a box in the wall,there was no cover and the wire was made up in a "flying splice" in what was probably the pot and pan cabinet. Real gem of a house as it had radiant ceiling heat run with 240 V across the black and white wire!!!

> run with 240 V across the black and white wire
Now, what's the matter?
Pull a red ground wire, install Schuko recpetacles and pretend you're in continental Europe, several years ago. +grin+

Are we the only ones to have plugs for ceiling lights? As only electricans are allowed to work with the wires, it's necessary to have plugs for the lamps. The plug and receptable are of a special small size type, in order to be hideable. (Hope there is such a word in English) These have been used for the past 70 or so years.

Originally, they were three pin, round and symmetrical. Trial-and-error. Murphys law ensures that you always get it wrong the first time. Now they are two-pin. (The three pin plug is ungrounded and the two-pin grounded. No, it's not a typo!)

The usual (and approved) way of mounting the receptable is to leave it hanging from the wires. Thus, no need for flying splices.

Ok, I've NEVER seen anything like this.
Connections are always flying splices (nothing like fixture boxes is known here, each fixture is supported differently (pendant fixtures by a hook driven into the lathes, joists or anything else handy, lighter types secured by some drywall screws driven into the ceiling). Connections are made flying on the ceiling or inside the fixture, either strip connectors or twisted and taped (old or "botcher at work").

A couple of British manufacturers make ceiling outlets with a plug-in lamp cord, in most case secured with a locking ring which ensures that the plug can't fall out.

Most pendant lights though just have the lamp cord hard-wired into terminals in the box (commonly called a "ceiling rose").

Texas-Ranger:

Flying splices on the outside of the wall????

And this is the country that doesn't allow you to re-connect gas appliances after they're a certain age.

If I read this correctly, you mean absolutely no wall boxes are used for mounting outlets or switches or for holding splices on cable that goes inside the wall??? WOW!!

I can understand not using wall boxes if you use those round "tumbler" switches like the one you showed in a photo some time back.


[This message has been edited by SvenNYC (edited 10-23-2002).]

We are lucky that there are not more vacant lots around because of such installations.

Sven, you got me wrong. We just don't use light boxes. All outlets and switches (except for surface-mount types like the one you referred to) are in boxes! (Round or octagon PVC, 7 cm (= roughly 3") in diameter, octagon ones are gangable). Only pendant ceiling lights are connected with flying splices. Wall sconces have all connections made safely inside the fixture. The splices on the ceiling are usually covered by some kind of plastic cup (ceiling rose, I guess), can also be brass or steel.
There are just some ingenious people who don't anchor surface mount receptacles properly, which would create a situation like you imagined. This is usually DIY work. They drill into the gaps between the bricks, the mortar is pretty weak (ALL construction prior to the 1950ies or so used plain mud, without lime or cement as mortar and plaster, it mainly hardened by drying, if you crush it and mix it with water you can reuse it)

This reminds me of something I have intended to ask: Does anybody else have problems with wall receptables hanging from the wires?

The engagement face of our (Schuko) receptables is recessed and the cover therefore protrude about an inch from the wall. (Surface mounted receptables twice that.) They therefore have a tendency to be torn out (or off) the wall when they are hit from the side. (Think public buildings and hallways!) This can also result in smashed covers, leaving live metal parts exposed.

Sure! 2 receptacles in our appartment just fell out of the walls. Had to mount them with screws instead of the usual clamps on both sides of the devices that spread when the screw is tightened and press against the box to hold the device in. At our school I remember many many receptacles hanging loose because everyone just ripped out the plug without holding the receptacle. Some of them I've repaired myself because it'd have been too much paperwork to get an electrician.

Are clamps (claws) still used in Austria? They have been cancelled on the latest generation of devices here. This could cause problems with old screwless boxes. (For the non-Europeans: Old boxes are just plain round tin-cans without holes for screws.)


Many many? Having to hold the receptable??? That sounds like poor quality.

Yes, they're widely used. When I complained about boxes sold without screws all I got to hear was: You don't need them. Claws are bomb-proof. Still, I prefer the belt-and-suspenders-method. Indeed, with our non-gangable boxes the screws go into a seperate plastic ring which is pretty likely to break out. Here claws are safer. Our old boxes had a metal ring and machine thread screws.
Yes they were poor quality. It was a series with weak claws. One teacher started to stick notes at every receptacles: "Hold receptacle while pulling out plug!"
It worked. Still, the electrical system of that scholl building was a nightmare. Breakers tripped randomly and sometimes wouldn't reset, the circuits had really strange layouts and ran all overe the building, supplying 2 schools, a ski rental, some offices and lotsa other stuff. So we never knew what actual load was connected to a circuit. Another reason why we kept tripping breakers. 500W were sometimes enough for a circuit with apparently only some fluorescents on it to trip.

Are telescopic boxes used in other countries? They are news here. See link for self-adjusting telescopic box.
http://www.lexel.se/ftp/020228-sjalvjusterande_ring.pdf