Just received this little piece of news:



20 euros is over U.S. $26. They seriously expect people to pay this tax every time they have a barbeque?

And just how much of the supposedly evil pollution is going to be created by the helicopters flying around spying on everyone?

Of course, it's not about protecting the environment. It's about criminalizing people for no reason and extorting as much money as possible -- Either as tax or in the form of fines.

what's that old saying:

"A fine is a penalty for doing bad, a tax is a penalty for doing good"

how many houses will burn down from people BBQ'ing indoors to avoid the tax?

wouldn't a better way to screw the people be to simply tax the hell out of propane and charcoal?

Please Lord, save us from ourselves.

Beware the dreaded BBQ SWAT(Special Weapons and Tactics) team.

Illinois has a new law to enforce speed limits during road construction (through the use of automated camera vans and mailings). First offense is something like a $350 fine. Second offense is something like $1,000 and loss of license....which means you have to pay a lawyer $15,000 to have the charges lowered.

Dave

2007-2008 Legislation of interest to Building Departments:

SB888: if inacted will require state agencies proposing building standards to the building standards commission to integrate specific green building elements into the proposed building standards.

AB722: if inacted will direct the energy commission to prescribe the minimum level of operating efficiency for lighting devices and PROHIBIT the sale of general service incandescent bulbs on and after January 1, 2012

When you hire (elect) someone to make laws, including tax laws, what do you expect them to do?

"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself."

"Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."

Both by Mark Twain

It has become a mantra of mine that politicians should never be allowed to write technical laws. They just don't possess the breadth of knowledge or experience to formulate anything better than a "knee-jerk" solution.

Example: Congress extended the U.S. Daylight Saving period to try to reduce energy usage, but it's had exactly the opposite effect because more people are waking up in the dark. (Fox News, this morning.)

When incandescent bulbs are banned, what kind of bulbs shall we screw into our fan lights, garage door openers, refrigerators, microwaves and work lights? Of course, these "appliance" bulbs might still be available, so that's what we'll all have in our bedroom table lamps.

I gotta go calm down now...

How much energy is used and how much pollution is created to manufacture the energy efficient compact fluorescents? Let alone how much mercury and other elements go into the landfills when the bulbs are discarded.

It reminds me of something here that happened years ago. For years, the city would plow the snow off the roads and dump it in the river. The Environment Ministry passed a law stating that if the snow was on the road for more than 24 hours, it could not be dumped in the river because it was contaminated with oil and other vehicle fluids. Yet, it was ok for them to dump the snow in a gully that had a small creek, a couple of hundred feet from the river. You guessed it, that creek emptied directly into the river.

Wow, I din't know some of our New Jersey lawmakers, moved to Belgium's French-speaking region of Wallonia.

The chairman of International Rexctifier has stated that he thinks it takes more energy to make a solar cell than it will ever deliver. Some economy huh?

Hopefully they will be using their fireplaces...

What a stupid idea, Typical brainless politicians.

All that Green nonsense is another excuse to tax, tax more, and tax most, till we have no money left over to spend and enjoy.

Paul are you sure someone is not pulling your leg here?

I just find it imposable to believe that anyone could think having a helicopter flying around looking for BBQs is going to reduce pollution.

If it's true than I agree with the earlier statement....save us from ourselves.

Greg:

I wonder if the IR chairman isn't being a little disingenuous, or looking for a reason to exit the business.

Don't we really want to know how much electricity the solar cell will produce (thus offsetting a more polluting generation source), and whether an installation would, we hope, pay back it's cost? How much energy went into producing my PC? It continues to gobble watts, delivering none, and yet I find it increasingly useful.

Food for thought.

You mark my words this Good Friday in 2007:

The environmental movement will lead to the one the GREATEST MASS GENOCIDES in human history, making the genocides in Germany, Russia and China look like a fracas in girls schoolyard.

Notice how the big hysteria with "CO2 emissions" suddenly arose out of nowhere - which is ridiculous since increased CO2 is an actually an EFFECT of global warming and NOT a cause. Since we can't control the biggest emitters of CO2, oceans and volcanoes, the next logical target that something CAN be done about is human beings, human life (since we breathe out CO2). And given how human life has been systematically cheapened through legalized abortion and euthanasia, mass genocides will be the next "reasonable" step... all in the name of saving the Earth, of course, for the c-h-i-l-d-r-e-n.

When you start seeing a rise in draconian gun control laws, you'll know the green "final solution" will soon be upon us.

By the way, in the early 1970s, as a kid I remember how "overpopulation" was going to lead to wars and famine, by the mid 1970s, I remember being taught in school how a new "ice age" was upon us from all the pollution blocking the sun which would lead wars, famine and starvation, and a new ice age. By the late 1970s, the whole world was going to run "out of oil", resulting in wars, civil unrest, and general mayhem. In the early 1980s, acid rain was supposed to destroy crops, leading to mass starvation. By the mid to late 1980s, the "ozone hole" was supposed to threaten our very existence because we were using hair spray and Freon. Now we hear similar caterwauling about "global warming". Perhaps if these IDIOTS at least got ONE thing right they might have some credibility.

Joe

P.S. Hide your guns.

Joe
Thank You for reminding me there are sane peolple out there

Members keep in mind this is an electrical forum, do not try to make it a political one.

So rather then try to produce it with less energy he makes a statement of why not make it, I bet there are plenty in line that would like his job.

Why not use wind energy to produce the cells, for a start. Or should we wait until energy is so costly that the gap will be almost impossible to close.

"he thinks"
That may be his problem, doing more thinking then working at the problem, ya I got up on the wrong side of bed today!

Paul feel lucky they did not criminalize BBQ's outright of just plain ol' spite, (vegans....) then use the guise that it is cancer causing to boot.

On the light bulb law - people will just have to go to thier local black market to get them, and thier charcoal. Maybe just hang up the tools and make some real money... Light bulb smuggling!

To be fair I plucked the quote out of context. Eric Lindow was actually speaking about an all electric car but this was his answer to one of the suggestions about where the power will come from.
The interview is in EE Times apr 2, 07
I do believe solar (PV) is a losing proposition, not only because of the power needed to make the cells but also because of the pollution the process makes.
I am sure we will export this industry to a country that doesn't care about coal fired plants, contaminated ground water and kids born with 11 fingers but the net result for the planet is the same.

I used to sit here all broken hearted
Learning that I polluted the air
Each time that I farted

Now the Supreme Court tells me
And I just gotta believe
That I'm polluting the air
With each breath that I breathe

Something is warming our planet
So we must be the felons
It couldn't possibly be
The Sun, cyclical change or Mt. St. Helens

Nothing more fun than a bunch of junk scientists telling us that a topic isn't even open for debate any longer. But still, they can't accurately predict the weather for a week.
Joe

I'd argue with you guys, but it's not a political forum.
I'd challenge Joe to provide some evidence of CO2 being an effect, rather than a cause of global warming, however.
I will say that so far global warming is just a "trend" it'll be another 15 years or so of increased average globaal temperatures to conclusivley say that the change is long-term and will not disappear next year.
the global warming topic is somewhat appropriate for this forum, especially when it comes to power consumption and methods used to reduce it, and I agree it's being gone about in the wrong sort of ways.
Abortion and euthinasia are both topics I feel very very, strongly on, but I refuse to comment as both topics are completely, absolutely, and undeniably inappropriate for and ELECTRICIAN'S forum. For cripe's sake....

the ozone hole was a phenominon that we knew the cause of, and that was definetely real, just ask someone in NZ or Australia who lives under the darn thing, our own Mike "Trumpy" for example, I believe he's had to have one or more melanomas removed. And the world powers got together, and signed a treaty phasing out clouroflourocarbons, the cause of the ozone hole, thus it stopped expanding, and is now shrinking, thus it is no longer an issue, is that so hard to understand? If anyone would like they can drop me an E-Mail and I'd be more than happy to explain the verifiable chemmistry behind the phenominon
-Will

In response to the actual topic, this is a ridiculous law, and gone about in the worst way possible, I agree that it's extortion, BBQ'ing has minimal CO2 how much charcol is used in a couple hours a bbq'ing a few pounds? how much coal is used in a few hours production at a coal-fired plant, a few tons? make the same comparison with 2-3 families running a grill and 2-3 families running their 4-5 cars on gasoline. And if they really want to extort money from the people, I agree, it would be a thousand times more logical to just tax the propane and charcoal.

-Will

Well, I'm left with a little egg on my face, as I've done a little digging it does appear that this story originated as an April 1st joke. The Belgian government has apparently completely denied any such proposal.

But doesn't the mere fact that I (and apparently many other people too) actually thought this could be true show just how far we've gotten with governments trying to control and tax every aspect of our lives?

It's like the battery issue here a few years ago which I can confirm was absolutely true. We already had a very efficient and entirely voluntary scheme for recycling the acid and lead from old car batteries. Scrap yards would accept them and just send them off for processing.

Then the heavy hand of government stepped in in some areas and implemented an "environmental protection" scheme which involved a complex system of issuing a separate document for each and every scrap battery collected. It also imposed a "recycling fee" for each and every battery collected which exceeded the scrap value of the battery itself.

The inevitable result was that batteries ended up being dumped in ditches etc. because scrap yards -- quite understandably -- simply refused to take them any more.

"Mother Earth" has turned into a religon and as with any fanatic, any veiwpoint contrary that they deem acceptable is not allowed.......

Perhaps this issue needs to be watched and added to the list of prohibited topics.

Well Paul, as a man who takes his BBQ seriously and lives in a city and state that at times goes over-board with "green" legislation - the 'joke' may be reality soon.

Do a search of BBQ and Cancer and you get stories like this: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3106039.stm

Or BBQ and polution: http://www.ontariotenants.ca/electricity/articles/2003/ts203f25.phtml

Also I feel that as an industry, BBQ is very important to us culturally. Klein makes BBQ tools, the Union is well known for its BBQs, and many of us non-union guys love it too!

It is unfortunate that electrical discussions – of all things – have turned political, but what are we to do? Just sit there and accept all sorts of ridiculous mandates without complaint of debate? Stalin would indeed be proud!

Politics IS affecting the trade, right down to proposed bans on, of all things, incandescent light bulbs… the most glaring attack yet on the trade. Actually, I shouldn't say “proposed” anymore because Title 24 of the California Energy Code MANDATES fluorescent lighting for new construction of kitchens and baths. What if I don’t want my kitchen or bath to look like office space? What if I don’t want to replace my light bulbs with those silly looking CF bulbs?

Electricity production – energy production in general – in and of itself has become EXTREMELY political. For example, with the grid becoming more unreliable, standby generator installations which used to be limited mainly to emergency facilities are now becoming commonplace. Solar (a very dirty technology) is once again seeing a resurgence now with inverters, batteries, and a variety of complex control systems. Wind power continues to expand, cluttering the landscape. Electricity is essential for a modern society, but increasingly it is under attack. Just look at what happens anytime any type of new power project is proposed.

I wish our debates were only limited to technical, practical, safety and code related issues – as it should. But this trade, like so many others, has taken on the wrath of those who view progress and an impediment, and such outside interference that will not end if we simply remain compliant.

Granted, BBQ has nothing at all to do with the electrical trade, but it brings forth the larger issue of regulation gone out of control. It was labeled OT as appropriate, which is why I responded in kind. Perhaps the moderators of this forum would consider a separate “off topic” section for these types of discussions, perhaps restricted to members willing to participate, so that it doesn’t distract from the exceptional vocational value of this forum. Such a forum should still be moderated so things don’t get out of control... which I doubt it would because the folks here are very respectful of others.

Joe

Joe.....really now....a bit over the top.

I am going to close this thread and speak with Bill and the other Moderators to see how they feel.

But based on the fact the topic of the post turned out to be a Hoax (Not by Paul) and it has nothing to do with electrical issues I see no reason to let it continue.

We now have PMs which your more then free to discuss any subject with other members.

There is also the chat room which I am told is much less restrictive then the forum itself.