I've done mostly residential work over the course of my career. New work, old work, service work, add-a-levels, additions, alterations, etc. I'm currently looking for a new job and I see a lot of people looking for help in the commercial field. So for a guy like me to make the leap from resi to commercial what would you suggest that I absolutely have to know in order to do commercial-type work?

1) Pipe bending
2) 480/277
3) Motor starters and controls
4) the machinery and the process
5) PLC's

1) All flavors of 3 phase
2) Industrial safety
3) Lighting

My pipe bending skills are minimal. I've taken the pipe bending course at Vo Tech but like most resi elec's we don't get to do much bending. I know all the multipliers and can bend 1/2" and 3/4" emt pretty good but the bigger benders I've never used on job sites.

I'm not totally unfamiliar with 3 phase.

Black, red, blue is normally a 120/208 Wye system with a grounded conductor
Black, red, blue can also be an open delta system where the 'wild leg' is 208 volts to ground should be phase 'B' indentified in orange
Brown, orange, yellow is a 277/480 volt wye system with a grounded conductor
277 volt is a single phase voltage
480 volt is either 2-pole, or 3-pole
3-phase motors have only run windings, no start windings
If a 3-phase motor is operating backwards, reverse two of the leads

PLC's I know nothing about.

Motor starters and controls I somewhat know

1) oddball breakers [ you will run into few of it ]

2) large number of MWBC's

3) large Distubation centre

4) MCC buckets

Say I had (3) 277 volt circuits and the load was 10, 4-lamp, 2x4 lay-in fluorescent light fixtures for each circuit, could I run a 12/4 MWBC and share the neutral for all three circuits?

yep you can do that that is very common on commercal area

Merci , Marc

I thought so.

just rember the golden rules with MWBC is that never take the neutral line off at all.

it happend to me few time when i was not carefull i have few 277v ballast went up smoke [and alot of french cussing with it ]

after that i got wise get ampmeter to read the amp load on netural to make sure it is safe but anytime you work on pretty large commercal area it can be pain in butt when you try turn off the lumiaires for mantaice work especally with ballast that will compound it.

i know one place they wont let me turn off the light when the ballast is burn out i told them sorry i want to turn it off when i work on it some case it take act of god to do it

Merci, Marc

• Fault-finding and Testing.
• PLC's and Industrial Sensors and their applications.
• Control systems used in processes and the processes themselves.
• Hand signals for cranes and other machinery used in factories while positioning equipment to be installed.

If you haven't got some already, get yourself a good set of 4 or 5 lock-dogs and padlocks to fit to breakers in factories, people have a habit of turning breakers back on if thier equipment fails to work, regardless of if it is the circuit you are working on.
Back that up with Red lock-out tags so that people know a qualified person has locked out the energy source and the breaker has not merely tripped.
One other aspect of this kind of work is the fact that there is a certain amount of pressure on you to get gear working again in as shorter time as possible, time truly is money when a factory is down and there are people standing around doing nothing, these people are still being paid.

One other thing,
Watch out for the Production Manager/Supervisor, these people can be the most annoying people on the face of this Earth.
They are generally what you could call a "Senior Handyman", they know everything but have no real qualifications.
They will stand over you while you are sweating blood trying to find a fault in a machine, saying things like "Well I wouldn't personally do that like that, how about I give this idea?".
I've been there before, I know these things, some people have come away so un-scathed!.

One big difference is most commercial people get married to one or two buildings for a long time. It is not like residential where you actually get outside now and then.
The guys I knew on the construction end of the business were starting to get cabin fever after about 2 years in the same jungle of steel studs and pipe. Different day, different room or floor but pretty much the same view every day. It can get real noisy too. Bare concrete as far as the eye can see with a couple of steel framer crews whacking studs on a chop saw and the noise will open up your sinuses. I used to carry ear plugs on my inspections and I used them a lot.

I suppose the guys who are in the retail end of the business have more variety than new construction but "maintenance" can still have you married to one building.
I guess it is all what you like.

Interesting thing Greg,
Commercial here would be the likes of office buildings and light Industrial, with respect to a few socket outlets and the odd computer network.
Industrial however is a totally different kettle of fish, this entails factories and other such technologies, PLC's even control systems that don't use PLC's.
SLC's (Small Logic Controllers)(almost a smart relay) are becoming more prevalent here for smaller processes.
At the old newspaper place that I used to work in it was very handy to have your own lap-top computer, you could download data off of the gear there and see it on a lot larger screen than what the SLC screen gave you.
What's more, you could save it and have a look at it later on, maybe when the thing broke down again, but with a different fault.
Just my $0.02 worth.

Ron:
EXPERIENCE.....field work in comm, after the Vo-Tech time, or as soon as you're ready.
Class time in PLC's, transformers, motor controls, etc. are all available at Vo-Tech.

The items listed above are all necessary.

Pipe skills are 'learned', but...doing it on a regular basis is the way to go. Big wire & big pipe (to resi guys) are commonplace for comm. A 20 amp, 3 phase, 4 wire circuit is the same as a 2000 amp, 3 phase, 4 wire.
Just bigger.

Catch up with me for some '1 on 1' if you have time. You have to be ready to make the jump; mentally and financially. I have some contacts that may be of interest

John

I think some of these replys are overdoing it when they say plcs and the such having been in the commercial field for 25 years I have gotten along fine without that,this portion of the trade is more suited for industrial electricians.

Thanks for all the insight fella's. I went on an interview this morning and it went well. Now I'm just waiting to hopefully hear back from the company and start work asap.

I'm usually very hard on myself and set expectations very high. I seem to have this mentality that I have to know everything, when in reality, nobody knows everything. I believe I am ready for the jump.

John, I'll see you at the school next week and thanks.

Pipe bending is a biggy, and I dont mean just 1/2 and 3/4"

may as well add Fire Alarm, HVAC controls, Security,

understanding the endless prints and change orders is also very desirable....especially if your "trying " to get along with the other trades

planning your pipe runs , laying out duct banks under 8 lane roadways can be tricky

if you ever work on embeddded conduits ,it is paramount you learn how to walk through wet concrete loaded with rebar without landing on your face....

and it is imperative you know where the control lines for those embedments and stub-ups are ..



site lighting can turn into a PITA if you are not careful with the underground.
and the Architects have an uncanny ability to want lights and power in thin air..or at least in some very uniqe design element that has NO provision for us to pipe it OR mount something to it

learning all about "post" tension slabs...

enjoying the experience of trying to run pipe from a fully raised scissors lift..

trying to beat a retail deadline has to be experienced to be believed, especially around the Holidays

installing lighting in a building that has NO roof... or floor......Costco seems to enjoy doing this...

learning how to get along with lots of people some of whom will cheerfully be ripping your just installed pipework out...

and if you have not run a lot of pipe, learning how to set up...pull, and feed wire

"What Should A Commercial Electrician Know?"

Here's a good list to shoot for:

1. Conduit / MC Cable,
2. Metal Boxes,
3. T-Bar Ceilings,
4. Steel Stud Framing,
5. Rated Corridors and Ceilings,
6. Panelboards and Feeders,
7. Large Service Equipment,
8. Troffer type Fluorescent Lighting Fixtures,
9. Complete Plansets!!! (how to read and install per "A", "M", "E", "P" and "S" Sheets),
10. RFIs ,
11. Scissor Lifts,
12. Gang Boxes + Material Containers - inventory, logistics, etc.,
13. Floor Boxes & Floor Ducts,
14. Roof Top HVAC equipment,
15. Comm / Data outlets,
16. Working within Crews, around many Crews,
17. Watching out for "Brown Nosers" (and not becoming one!),
18. Knowing who is "In Charge" from the "Bandini Slingers",
19. A much more relaxed pace of Work (unless the person(s) running the job are Bozos / Bandini Slingers, then you have problems!),
20. A really good base on Circuitry Theory,
21. And as previously mentioned - 3 Phase Circuitry knowledge, MWBC knowledge (3 phase 4 wire), trade-specific color codes for 208Y/120V and 480Y/277V Circuitry,
22. Pulling LOOOOONNNNNNGGGGG Branch Circuits and Feeders,
23. Making up Zillions of T-Bar Troffer Fixtures ad nauseum,
24. Fault Levels exceeding 10KA,
25. Bolt-On Breakers,
26. PLC and similar type control equipment.

I'll toss a few more in later!

Ditto on the above - 16 years and ran into a PLC twice I think. Once on a candy factory line, and once at a glass fabricator's - both on machinery they had inside people to handle. For the most part I consider "Commercial" (at least in my market) to be retail and showroom spaces, offices, returaunts and my personal favorite - Auto body and cabinet shops... As we have only 'light industrial' left here... I call it commercial too...

Oh know your limitations...

ShockMe77,

Glad my list was relevant!
Please excuse the ambiguous terms used, I will explain a few in some detail, later in this message.

Nevertheless, most of the things I listed, will be commonly dealt with in Commercial / Industrial work, which differ from what is commonly dealt with in Residential work.

The most noticeable and "Stand-Out'ish" difference between "Common" Commercial work and most Residential work is Framing Materials!

Commercial is mostly Steel Studs (all gauges - some for Drywall Partitions, others for Structural) for Interior Walls, and "building envelopes" (Structural Walls) may be Concrete Tilt-Up Panels, Masonry, Steel Panels, Steel Beam framed, and the occasional Wood-Framed Building.

When 2 floors are involved within a Tilt-Up, the Interior Framing involved may be Wood, or Structural Steel.
Nearly all Structural Roof items for Tilt-Ups are Wood (Laminated Beams, Plywood Roofing, Solid Wood Purlins).

Floors on levels above 1st floors may be of "Elastocrete" (a light weight type of Concrete) - poured on Plywood Decking, or 4" and 6" thick common concrete, poured on top of either Plywood Decking, or Corrugated Steel Decking (AKA "Robinson Decking").

Other drastic changes will be the size and capacity of Service equipment (Physical and Electrical sizes), Panelboards in remote locations, Transformers here and there, actual (hopefully!) workable Plans, and dealing with Conduits of many sizes (1/2" up to 4").

I am sure you are very aware of these differences, so I will close that chapter and move on to "Whaddaheck Does That Mean" items of my posted list


*** List #"E": Rated Corridors and Ceilings ***

*** Reply: Like plenum rated ceilings? ***

Actually I was referring to Fire Rated Corridors, Walls and Ceilings + Demising Walls; but Plenum Ratings for Cable jackets used in Plenum return air ceilings is also relevant!

*** List #"G": Large Service Equipment ***

*** Reply: I can identify a closed delta from an open delta, and know the difference between a delta and wye configuration. Delta transformers are wired in series, wye's in parallel ***

This item was to refer to the physical sizes and capacities of Commercial / Industrial based Service Equipment, in addition to the various types of System Configurations one may encounter.
Keep in mind that 4 Wire Deltas (the ones with the "High Leg), may be derived from "Open Delta Vee" and Closed Delta configurations; and 3 Phase 3 Wire Deltas may also be Open Vee types or Closed types - and come in both Grounded and Ungrounded flavors!.

*** List #H: Troffer type Fluorescent Lighting Fixtures ***

*** Reply: Not sure what a "troffer type" fluorescent is but I'll guess it's either a high-bay type or a reflective lens type ***

This is a "Fancy" term for "2x2" and "2x4" Fluorescent Fixtures.

*** List #I: Complete Plansets!!! (how to read and install per "A", "M", "E", "P" and "S" Sheets) ***

*** Reply: What is A, M, E, P, & S abbreviated for? I am somewhat ok with reading prints, but not perfect ***

Sorry for the initials!
"A" = Architectural Sheets,
"M" = Mechanical Sheets (HVAC and similar),
"E" = Electrical Sheets (used and referred to 90% of the time),
"P" = Plumbing Sheets,
"S" = Structural Sheets.

There are others, which are the "Vendor-Specific" Plans, and "Specific Systems / Equipment" Plans.

*** List #J: RFIs ***

Acronym for "Request For Information" - a document / set of documents sent to Design Staff (Architects, Engineers, etc.) and/or to Contractors, to find out what the heck is needed - due to an unclear or missing piece of information on the Plans.
RFIs are generally written up, with a brief description of the issue and references to Plan Page(s).
Also known as a "WTF" (What The Foooo..)
Other similar documents are RFC (Request For Clarification), Change Order requests, FWO (Field Work Orders) and the lovely "Walk Through Punch Lists"!

*** List #X: Fault Levels exceeding 10KA, ***
This is where you will begin to see OCPDs with AIC / AIR listings at 18KA, 22KA, 30KA, 42KA, 65KA, 100KA and 200KA - and when + where to use them.
Also, keep a clean change of Pants + Underwear handy - these will be needed when you experience your first accidental Ground Fault on a High capacity System!

One other item - which goes in conjunction with "Service Equipment" is GFPE Protected Main Disconnects.
Ground faulting on the Load side of 480Y/277V 3 Phase 4 Wire Solidly Grounded Wye Systems of 1,000 Amps and larger, will result in tripping the _MAIN SERVICE DISCONNECT_
When this happens, it brings down the entire Building on that service.
Indications of tripping a GFPE main are:
* Only Emergency Lighting is on,
* Kwh Meter at the Main Service is not spinning / recording any consumption,
* Pissed-Off Tenants wandering around, looking for someone to point fingers at,
* A distant sound of the Back-Up Generator starting.

*** List #Z: PLC and similar type control equipment ***

Not too much PLC stuff (would be nice, but only if you want the knowledge), but more in the lines of "EMC" / "BAS" Equipment.

"EMC" = Energy Management Controllers (AKA Energy Management Systems - or "EMS") consist of Programmable type Controllers driving Relays and Contactors, which control Lighting and HVAC Equipment.

"BAS" = Building Automation Systems, which are similar to an "EMC", but may be more Integrated / sophisticated, or involving more than just Lighting and HVAC Systems for a given Client.

Both types may be comprised of "Simple" Programmable Time Switches (Electronic types, Astronomical, 7 day, multi events, programmable),
or be "LON-Based" Programmable (Local Operational Network Based - like Ethernet LANs, only the data in packets is simply Control information, sent to/from assigned addresses).

These Systems are very interesting, and may be extremely detailed.

A basic knowledge of these systems - and any Addressable Systems or Specific Systems (BAS, COMM/DATA, Fire Alarms, Security / CCTV) is something to think about gaining over time - as it will be very helpful to know what is involved in these types of systems.

Good luck!!!
Feel free to ask more questions!

.....Also, keep a clean change of Pants + Underwear handy - these will be needed when you experience your first accidental Ground Fault on a High capacity System!.....

hehehe,
and remember where the exit door is too ...

OK, tripping the GF in a building does result in a lot of p/o'd people. It also can result in a lot bigger problems.

Do it once....you learn!
John

If you are working in retail or offices you will have to consider safety of not only the employees, but their clients.

Lockout and tag-out procedures.

Local fire codes; watch for penetration of fire walls.

There will be more scheduling for commercial work than for residential. A lot of jobs will require afternoon or nightshifts to minimize disruption.

{Qouted by Scott35}

"One other item - which goes in conjunction with "Service Equipment" is GFPE Protected Main Disconnects.
Ground faulting on the Load side of 480Y/277V 3 Phase 4 Wire Solidly Grounded Wye Systems of 1,000 Amps and larger, will result in tripping the _MAIN SERVICE DISCONNECT_
When this happens, it brings down the entire Building on that service.
Indications of tripping a GFPE main are:
* Only Emergency Lighting is on,
* Kwh Meter at the Main Service is not spinning / recording any consumption,
* Pissed-Off Tenants wandering around, looking for someone to point fingers at,
* A distant sound of the Back-Up Generator starting. ""


that is the famous situation i ran into few time sure, sure , the tenents will cuss in very colourfull langunge some time it will show up in forgen langaune as well.

the last time it happend to me was a week ago one of the ground wire bump with netural wire that will trip the GFI system and i can heard the transfer switch kicked over to genny power i say [cussing in French ] oh well i have to reset the big 2500 amp 480 switch [ i have a chicken switch to do this for me ] to prevent flash over on me if something go wrong

Merci , Marc

P.S. if you plan to shut the main building power in large commercal area ya better plan that ahead of the time [ some will say heck no to this ]

You guys don't get out enough.
PLC's are industry these days.
I hope you guys aren't looking to change jobs soon.
I wouldn't employ you.

it's not what you need to know, but how you go about learning what you need to know. there is no doubt that you can do it. start as a 2nd or 3rd year apprentice. you will be making about the same amt of wages as a residential journeyman. try to find a journeyman with a least five years experience and willing to teach and do whatever it takes to stay with him. if you are big and strong and in good condition it will not be hard to find a adequate journeyman. don't try to hard, try not to talk to much and never talk about yourself. study print reading every chance you get. i am talking about construction prints from previous jobs the contractor has completed, they are always laying around, notice the as-builts, know the code and be able to pick out extras but try not to make the company estimators look bad, they are usually close to the owner, you don't want the estimators bad mouthing you, they are the moneymakers and carry a lot of weight, make them look good. get to know the estimators if possible. what you will find is new construction electricians may not be as adequate in troubleshooting as they should be so save your questions for the experienced troubleshooters when you get to get out on trouble calls. don't draw attention to yourself. if you start out as a journeyman you will put to much pressure on yourself and thats not good for anybody. outside instruction is fine in conjunction with an experienced journeyman but not as necessary as you might think. your desire will be fulfilled by how well you relate with the journeyman. if there is a large demand in your area for commercial electricians you have leg up because you are a journeyman and you can interview them, you are willing to work as an apprentice to learn from the ground up. go for it, commercial work is the entry way to being an industrial electrician and thats where you want to be in your twilight years when the arthritus sets in from those years as a residential-commercial wireman.

Mike I think that is a bit out of line.

Have you worked here in the US?

I can tell you there are plenty of competent electricians who work in industrial settings that never touch a PLC.

The factory I am currently assigned to has two on staff electricians. One is proficient with PLCs one is not.

I think it is worth pointing out that ShockMe77 was asking about commercial work, not industrial work.

Been doing this for many years and have never touched a PLC, and out of a workforce of 60 I maybe have one or two guys who has.

Some people know everything ..but in reality can do nothing.Are u really in a postion to hire....I find that hard to beleive.

...

You might also find it hard to believe but I don’t do:
Fire Alarm
Security
Controls (including PLCs)
BAS (other than pulling the wire for NOVAR)
Data (other than pulling the wire)
Telephone (other than pulling the wire)
Lightning Protection
Painting
Patching
Telephone backboards
Sound Systems
Or any work more than 25 miles from my shop

Only if I have to and there is no way to scope it out of my work, I will do fire caulking.

wow...didn't see that one coming

Here is a simple one Shock...know how to wire ballasts...fluorescents and HIDs. And know how to wire them efficiently. It shouldn't take 4 hrs to wire 3 ballasts 8' off the ground.

We are also in NJ, and do a bunch of commercial/retail maintenance.

#1 attribute - know how to read and know how to think. Be able to figure out what's there, understand it, and then understand how it works. Be able to read schematics, you can fix anything, if you can understand the schematics.

I've been in this business going on 15 yrs now. We've done warehouses, factories, offices, retail stores, pharmacy's, etc...know how to read and how to think your way out of a paper bag, and you got it knocked.

PLC's - they almost all come with manuals. Might take a little longer, but the directions are there. And on the commercial side, you won't see to many of them.

There is a difference between PLC/control work and hooking up a simple ice cube relay.

The big problem I run into is that there are some great non-union shops here in town that do control, data/phone, security, and fire alarm for about half (sometimes a 1/3) my labor rate.

Some of the dispute here is caused by confusion as to the trade being discussed.

If you are a journeyman electrician, working for an electrical contractor who focuses on commercial / industrial work, you may never see a PLC.

If you are a maintenance electrician, working for a manufacturer, you'll deal with PLC's on a daily basis.

Once again ... to get the right answer, you have to ask the right question.

I agree Reno. My response was about the construction guys I saw when I was inspecting.

I worked with an older ladder logic PLC (Graysoft software)that controlled machines about 10 years ago. But will probably never see one again. Probably not necessary to know it as a commercial/industrial elec.

Pick up three ballasts from shop drive to job 1 hour...
Park, load cart, ladder, and bicker with some security guard who is on a power trip and won't allow you in the building - 1 hour...
Break time....
Repeat step two...
Do the actual work - while dodging irriate over-wieght women who think you are invading thier work place and need to manage you every move - and call a meeting to let you shut off the lights for 5 minitues on a bright sunny day next to a window - if for nothing else - COMPLETE BORDOM!
Lunch time....
Clean up and pack out...
4-5 hours.... If you clear access and other crap out of the way 15 - 20 minutes if you have the ballasts at the job and sparky at the door.

Maintenance/repair is a 'tough' call; best on a T&M basis. We all have had 'no lights/no power' calls; some are flip the breaker, some are disasters

Experience.

John

Good service electricians are hard to find. Its not enough that they have trouble shooting skill sets but they also have to have the right demeanor, and the right amount of drive.

for the sake of argument (and the actual case cited) Strip Mall..exterior soffit...complete open access...exterior time clock...no access restrictions at all...ballasts and lamps on the truck...3 ballasts 3.5 hrs...

Mark, do you work for GSA? That was what they told the guy who wanted his computer room wired, except they had an extra hour or two a day for paperwork.

GSA? No.... Medical and some office med/high rises - some are worse than banks and airports to get into. Even some of the resi I do, need signed authorization from unit owners and building management to just look at the job, and arrange elevator access/appointments +/or loading dock appointment. In a few buildings you need to be accompanied at all times.... RPITA!

This to clear up any misunderstanding that my post on the previous page was not directed at ITO...sorry for any misunderstanding.

You rattled off the wire colors for various voltages, but never start working on anything till you have verified with your meters what the voltages are in reality. You do not know who worked on equipment before you and often times hack maintainence
men wire equipment to get it running. I have seen 12/3 nm power more than few compressors

My apologies to anyone that read this, I am Damned sure that I did not write this, with the lack of an IP address search I can't prove it.
If I did write it I whole-heartedly apologise for writing such rubbish, although I would have been at work at the time.

Thanks for all the great replies!