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Posted By: The Watt Doctor Why is it always a..... - 10/07/02 02:41 AM
bad breaker. There are a lot of excuses out there, but telling me that the breaker must be bad is not one that I will easily accept. If I had a nickle for everytime someone has called and said, "We had an electrician come out, and he said it was a bad breaker." I fire back, "Why are you calling me?" "Well, he didn't have the right type of breaker to replace it with." I reply, "Who was this electrician?" "Well, he's a friend." You know the story.
I had a friend call me this weekend. "Hey Doc. We need your wattological expertise." (Do you believe that they called me Doc?)
I said, "Watts the problem?" "Got a bad breaker", they said. I said, "Oh?" I almost hung up, and left the house before they could call me back. The problem ended up being a short circuit in the light kit of a ceiling fan.
Now, I've had some bad breakers before, but not very often. With the exception of control transformers (which burn up from time to time), transformers, disconnects, and breakers are some of the most reliable equipment that we have.
I dropped a Nema 1, 45 KVA, transformer from about 12 ft in the air one time. Afterwards, I changed my underwear, called my supplier to find out how much a new one would cost, she told me, and I changed my underwear again. Left with bad options, worse options, and worser options, I took out my Klein's, disassembled that transformer, (using my Klein's) I beat the housing back into a somewhat square shape, put it back together, hung it, hooked it up, and that sucker is still humming today.
What say y'all?

Yes mother, I'm wearing clean underwear,
Doc
Posted By: sparky66wv Re: Why is it always a..... - 10/07/02 02:50 AM
Main CB's in 3R disco's when mounted directly below the meterbase (and using SE cable) tend to go out frequently.

Other than that, I'd have to agree... Breakers get a bad rap for being "the problem child" and are usually just doing their job!

I try to explain, that in most (residential) situations, a tripping breaker isn't bad, but a breaker that won't come on at all may be bad (but more likely the circuit will have a dead short {bolted fault})... If it crunches when turining it on or off, it is probably bad.
Posted By: Electric Eagle Re: Why is it always a..... - 10/07/02 03:30 AM
I hear the same thing. Usually it's something like "I need you to replace a weak breaker we've got, it trips everytime we try to vacuum and use the hairdyer at the same time" [Linked Image] Well don't do that!
Posted By: txsparky Re: Why is it always a..... - 10/07/02 03:31 AM
Most of the" bad breakers " that I've had to replace resulted from arcing at a loose or "bad connection"between the breaker and the bus.(generally requiring panel change to replace burnt bus)I have seen breakers that trip prematurely,or that wont reset,just not that often.
Posted By: sparky Re: Why is it always a..... - 10/07/02 10:08 AM
typical of the customer, blaming the one item that apparently gives him/her trouble.

sort of like those silly red dash lights....
Posted By: Electricmanscott Re: Why is it always a..... - 10/07/02 10:59 AM
Same deal here. Went on an estimate a few weeks ago every thing went well untill... " What would it cost to change a bad breaker?" She tells me it was tripping so she changed a switch and it still trips. It does not trip however unless you turn the switch on! I told her the breaker is fine and the problem is likely at the light fixture but needs a little trouble shooting. "I'll check that and if it's still the breaker I'll have you change it" Ok then! [Linked Image]
Posted By: bobc Re: Why is it always a..... - 10/07/02 11:53 AM
doc,good to have you back. its amazing the number of bad breakers out there.when asked by fellow electricians about bad breakers,i always respond WHERE IS YOUR AMMETER!
Posted By: CanadianSparky Re: Why is it always a..... - 10/08/02 01:41 AM
Sorry Doc, I always worry about dropping those transformers hung in the air. But how'd you drop it? I just hung one last week that was 580 lbs for an X-ray machine(American made of course @480v thats why we use a lot of transformers) and its sitting above the technicians head right now. Still scares me.
Posted By: The Watt Doctor Re: Why is it always a..... - 10/08/02 03:24 PM
I'm a little [Linked Image] to say, but for the good of the forum I'll confess my mistake. The transformer was existing, and was to be removed, and relocated. It was hanging off all thread and unistrut from the building structure. We rigged up a chain fall from the building structure, and using rope I tied onto the transformer with a "make shift cradle". That was a big mistake. I should have rented some kind of lift for the job, but I didn't. With the transformer tied off, I had everyone back away. I began to back the nuts off the all thread rod. I alternated on all 4 corners to keep it level. When the first nut came off the all thread everything was OK, but when the second nut came off the transformer shifted. A sharp edge on the transformer sliced through the rope, and it was on the ground before I could blink an eye. It hit my arm on the way down, but I was OK. Other than the housing on the transformer, the worse thing that was hurt was my pride. I called the shop, and told them as well as the other people I mentioned above. Talk about a "crash course" in "body work", I gave myself one that day. Other than the paint being scratched, you could barely tell that anything had happened to it. There is no doubt in mind that it would have killed anyone under it. I can tell you that I will never drop another one. Once you've dropped one, it changes you. I don't care what it takes. I'll never drop one again. If there is any doubt about what it calls for, I won't do it.
If I ever have to use a chain fall again, I'll use "wire slings", drill the feet of the transformer, and mechanically attatch the slings under the transformer.
I've hung lots of transformers. I've hung oil filled tranformers on wooden poles when I was working with some linemen at a shop in the past. I never even come close to dropping any of them. I must confess that the one I dropped was totally my fault. It was probably the dumbest thing I've ever done in the trade.

From the desk of Doc's Body Shop,
Doc
Posted By: C-H Re: Why is it always a..... - 10/08/02 04:01 PM
How big are these hanging transformers?

Here you find them on or in the ground. I suppose this is to save the poco guys from the embarassement of dropping them [Linked Image]
Posted By: The Watt Doctor Re: Why is it always a..... - 10/09/02 12:16 AM
C-H,
It's been probably 10 years since I've done any line work, and I can't remember the size of those oil filled transformers. My guess would be 250 KVA. These particular transformers were installed in a chemical plant out in Crosby, TX. The plant had Medium Voltage through out, and instead of underground feeders to and from their switchgear they had it strung out overhead. Well, everywhere they needed to use the power throughout the plant, the would set a pole with transformers, run conduit up the pole, and pick up the secondary side of the transformers for their motor control centers, or whatever else they used. You mentioned the poco above. These transformers belonged to the plant.
As a matter of fact, all the medium voltage work that I've done (which is not much), was done in chemical plants, with the exception of a 4160 volt pad mounted transformer that I hooked up once. It was at a research center, or engineering facility of some sort.

I've been transformed,
Doc
Posted By: Scott35 Re: Why is it always a..... - 10/09/02 11:16 PM
As everyone else here has experienced, I've had my share of "Bad Breakers" which were simply in the tripped off position.
Also had the "Bad Breakers" which were tripping due to some fault.

But, have replaced a few truly "Bad Breakers" - due to the reset mechanism being worn completely out. One common type is the old Square D XO frames.

Had lots of "Bad Breaker" scenarios where the Line side Bus connection was barbequed. More common with frames on a Plug-In Bus, but had a few Bolt-On Bus problems from loose screws on the Bus.

Bad Breaker!!! Your Grounded for two weeks!!! [Linked Image] <bad humor>

Scott S.E.T.
Posted By: The Watt Doctor Re: Why is it always a..... - 10/10/02 12:14 AM
Quote
Bad Breaker!!! Your Grounded for two weeks!!!
Not bad humor, but humor......not bad.
Speaking of bolt in breaker problems. Went on a trouble call once. Put my meter on the neutral, and on the breaker lug where the wire was landed (oad side). Hmm....120 volts, the meter says. I walk over to the receptacle, and check it....but it's dead. Breaker live...receptacle dead....breaker live...receptacle dead....trace wire....correct circuit going to receptacle. Again....breaker live....receptacle dead. This went on for a while. I could feel the heat in the collar of my shirt. Everytiem I went back to that dead receptacle I would get even more mad. I was none to happy. Finally, I lied to the customer, told him it was fixed and left. I was hoping that some miracle would happen, and I would never have to go back to that place. I didn't care because I couldn't stand that customer. The next day, the second lie occured when my boss called and said, "Why didn't you fix that problem." I quickly replied, "It was working when I left." Famous last words. I would go to the "lie well" several times before that trouble call was over. I get back down there, and this time I pulled not just the cover, but the dead front off the panel. There right in front of me was the problem. Someone, had taken a "tech screw" and screwed it into the buss instead of the factory self threading screw. Over time the resistance in that connection burned the tab where the breaker connects to the buss (line side). Everytime I put my meter on the load side of the breaker it would push the line side down onto the buss, and I would read 120 volts. I would lift my meter probes off the breaker, and go check the receptacle only to find it dead. Before I left that trouble call, I probably lied more in that short time than I've ever lied before. I couldn't stand that guy, and every chance he got, he would back me into a corner, and I would lie my way out of it.

Guilty of one of the seven deadly sins, on that day for sure,
Sorry, Lord,
Doc
Posted By: sparky Re: Why is it always a..... - 10/10/02 12:54 AM
[Linked Image from theforce.net]
repent sinner!
say three art 406's & two art 240's
[Linked Image]
Posted By: harold endean Re: Why is it always a..... - 10/10/02 01:00 AM
Doc,

Long story short, Bad breaker-service call. Took wire off breaker and guess what? Breaker resets. After looking around found a lot of melted wires in one room. No large load, no heaters, etc. Turned out that lightning hit a tree which hit the side of the house and melted wires in that one room. End of story for a bad breaker.
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