One of those "A buddy give me this panel, can you make it work and save me some money?"

Hoo boy...

The bus looks clean, the cover will need replaced or he'll have a fortune in blanks, he'll have a fortune in KO plugs anyway...

But... The Main CB Lugs are stripped... that is the Allen Hex part of the screw... No way to get 250 in-lbs on 'em like that...

Are there replacement lugs available? (I would think that they'd be readily available since we're only suppose to torque them once!) Looking in the Grainger catalogue and at the SQ D site was no help...

Any ideas?

A new Main CB would be as expensive as replacing the whole shebang... Which would be to my liking anyway...

Pardon my frankness but is this for real? I would either walk away or insist on a new panel and then walk away. Either way I'm walkin! This probably doesn't help you though!

I agree in sentiment, and I'd like to show him in writing how much his old panel may cost him and with no warranty to boot...

So far:

$36 for a new cover...

$12 to $15 in KO plugs...

I'm thinkin' about $8 to $12 for the new lugs if I can get 'em...

So a used panel for about $60?

Hmmm....

Where do you get a cover? What about your time and aggravation fee? The lugs and cover will not magically appear in your truck. You already spent time here doing "research". I think you know waht I'm getting at.

66:
If you're serious, let me know & I probably have a few QO 222's in our shop.
The lug allens can go "snail mail".
I can send them COD. We have a "large" Sq D distributor up here, and he laughed when I asked him.

If the lugs are stripped at the allens, what kind of shape is the rest of the lugs in????
Or was it "the wrong tool, for the right job??
Let me know.
John

John,

(Got your other mail BTW, forgot to mention it... Thanks!)

Yeah, I need the entire lug, not just the allen "bolt" (screw?), the whole thing is probably over-torqued... Does look as though they may have used an undersized wrench...

Electricmanscott,
Sq D has always sold their covers seperately, as far as I know (around here anyway)... But my supplier is no longer a SQ D distributor... But yes, it's already been a big pain, but it'll be spent convincing him to buy new as well...

I've found the 1D444 Main Lug kit in the Grainger book, but I don't think it's what I want.

What I want is a new Load Center...



[This message has been edited by sparky66wv (edited 09-24-2002).]

Know when to say no.
The day after, you might be glad you did.

The lugs on a Square D loadcenter main breaker are not replaceable. You can get new allen screws but not the lugs themselves. Usually it is less expensive to buy a new main breaker panel (volume pricing) than a replacement main breaker only (repair part pricing).

So, let me get this straight...

There aren't any replacement lugs.

We're only suppose to torque lugs once, then replace them if we need to torque again.

So, let's say the inspector fails you on something that requires retorquing the lugs... Maybe you had to move the panel, or replace the conductors...doesn't matter. Are you going to buy a new panel or a new main to do it, or just retorque the old lugs?

Anyone see the problem here, or is it just me?

66
You are going to make one tough inspector
Come visit Texas anytime,but no inspections please!Sean,can I get a second to that?

You can loosen and then retorque the allen screws all you want. If you strip or damage the screw you can replace it.

If you deform, strip, or otherwise damage the lug body, you must replace the entire breaker. Replacement lugs are not and have never been available for Square D QO, Q1, Q2, Q4, QOM1, and QOM2 frame breakers

I could probably get away with replacing just the allen screws.

The local SQ D distributor is the hometown version of Home Depot... except the prices aren't low and the "experts" know even less...

I may have to go down there and see what they've got...

Otherwise I may put in an order for the ones John has!

Or maybe I'll win the argument and he'll get a new panel.

Electricmanscott, you have got the foresight (or previous experience one) and I should've walked away. I will next time, I swear!

What a pain!

Perhaps I am in a different situation or have a different attitude than some. I have more work than I can handle which allows me to choose what and when I want to do. If sommething looks like a pain in the rear I will walk away. I don't have the time or the desire to deal with the headaches. Been there done that!

Is there something that says you can only torque lugs once? That should be the reason for a torque spec, so the fitting/lug is not loose nor over tightened to the point of damaging it.

sparky66wv - Do you have all of the branch circuit breakers needed for this panel? If not the cost of the QO breakers will probably cost you more than the cost of a new GE loadcenter and circuit breakers. I think I remember you saying that you were a GE man. If the circuit breakers need to be QO then this won't work. I think you would be better off eating the cost of a new panel yourself if you figure out all of the time its going to take you to get this old panel to work. I try to never use "used" electrical equipment because it always comes back and haunts me later. I have worked on major remodel projects that require moving electrical panels that were recently installed and I always tell the owners that it will cost them more for me to reuse an old panel then to install a new one.

Curt

[This message has been edited by caselec (edited 09-25-2002).]

It comes complete with about 36 QO120's and a 100A 2 pole CB... 200A Main CB of course...

About one third are painted fluorescent green, another third painted fluorescent orange.

Someone said something about replacing connectors in the Torque Specs thread, I thought...

Maybe...

... Yeah, Don said:


(bold emphasis mine)



[This message has been edited by sparky66wv (edited 09-25-2002).]

Long shot, but is there any chance that the main breaker would take an Anderson/SqD “Versa-Crimp” {hydraulic-compressed} lug kit? It's been a while but one supply house would loan out the VC7{?} crimper for small jobs.

Have you checked to see how much a used circuit breaker would cost? I don't know if you have any supply houses that specialize in circuit breakers but I have several near me and they will sometimes make pretty good deals on used breakers. They might even have the lugs you need in stock. Try giving Circuit 99 a call(800-659-9462). Imagine a Home Depot with nothing but circuit breakers on every isle......that is what their warehouse looks like. I can also provide you with some other numbers if needed.

Curt

[This message has been edited by caselec (edited 09-26-2002).]

-You are going to make one tough inspector
Come visit Texas anytime,but no inspections please!Sean,can I get a second to that?-

I second that

Did somebody say "eat the cost of the panel yourself"? WHAT!!!!!

I can't beleive there are so many threads on this subject. Walk away... don't spend one second longer thinking about this situation.
Time is money and you are not making any, spending so much time on this. Know when to say no... Know when to walk...

We are in this business to make a profit!!!
Be honest, but don't be stupid....

I said it. Time is worth money! How much would a new loadcenter cost? He already said that it is going to cost him about $60 to make this panel work. If he has to run around buying parts he is loosing time that could be spent making money. I don't know what the rates are in his area but around me you can charge between $75 - $100/hr so it does not take long to make up the cost for a relative inexpensive item. If this was my project I would just buy a new panel and make up the cost somewhere else.

I am in business to make money. If I do jobs that cost me money what is the point. I think eating the cost on anything (except your own mistakes) and thinking you will makeit up later is generally bad policy. If I am spending time seacrching for an item for a customer it is on their bill. I don't understand how this will cost him money either way. It may cost the client more in the end to make this panel work. I would let them know this and let them decide if they would like a new panel at THEIR cost.

If this is a neighbor, family member, or friend disregard everything I just said. I know how that goes!

Well, it's the uncle of the possible future appretice I may hire...

It'll be the second "paying" job I ever did in my hometown... (The first one was the service in the "Mission Impossible" thread)...

But, I also think you are right, I've wasted so much time on it just pondering what I should do, that it's made it not worth it at all...

Actually, I have worked putting in a new sub panel and disconnect after a lightning storm a few years ago at my step-dad's dairy. I charged them $12 per hour because it was an insurance job (rather than free)... He'll never hire me again because I'm too expensive and too hung up on code. My own family...

It's a tough area...

Electricmanscott - If there is a problem with the panel or any other item before a price is give then by all means the owner should be charged what ever it takes. I was just assuming that he had given someone a fixed price to do a job and told them he could reuse the panel but didn't realize that the lugs were bad (his own mistake). I think we have all had fixed bid projects with material or labor cost overruns. I agree with your statement that making up for the cost somewhere else is not a good business practice but sometimes its the only way to make up the loss on something the owner should have paid for in the first place. I have been asked many times to reuse electrical equipment to save money but I always tell the customer I will figure on using all new but if I can make reasonable use of items I will credit them the cost on the final bill.

Curt

admirable perserverance Virgil

I forgot to mention:

This job is straight-up T&M, not even an estimate...Not even a "shoot from the hip" "ballpark" figure verbally!... I think that is a first for me...

Oddly enough, he was willing to pay $75 more for PVC and RHW-2 as opposed to SEU for the more robust installation...

I think I can talk him into a new panel, especially after I tell him that the PVC route is roughly the same cost as the SEU route.

Interestingly, this service is going into an old school building that will be converted into a dwelling. <paul harvey>And now for the rest of the story...</paul harvey> The bank building in the Mission Impossible thread, and this old school building, along with many other houses and buildings in the old town of Williamsburg, West Virginia, were hoarded by an old lady who let them rot until the day she died. Then, just recently, they've been auctioned and everyone's trying to salvage what they can. The owner paid less than $5000 for the property with the old school and was immediately offered $8000 for the wormy chestnut that it is made out of.

He won't sell it. He's restoring it. I like that.

[This message has been edited by sparky66wv (edited 09-29-2002).]