ECN Forum
Posted By: sparky66wv Mission Impossible - 09/19/02 11:51 AM
It has come to light that in South-Eastern WV, there is an inspector that no one likes.

Apparently, he averages about 2 or 3 trips per inspection call, charging for each time. Rumor has it that he has never passed an inspection the first time, always finding something wrong.

He makes rounds here and I'd like to put an end to this "all-fail" trend.

I'm going to get his name and number, and call him up on the next service I do, which will probably be early next week. I want your help "in tearing me a new one" so I'm prepared for anything. I want to pass with no exceptions, buts, ifs, or whatever the first time he comes.

My goal is to dumbfound him, if nothing but just to knock him down to earth a little bit.

I also want to see if the rumors are true, heck, he might just be a good inspector who's never seen a code compliant installation, which wouldn't surprise me.

Apparently, there's been enough complaints that the Fire Marshal is becoming involved, but that doesn't mean the guy is a menace, he could just be like one of us and sick of tired of what he sees.

Tom, they ain't talkin' 'bout you, are they?

[Linked Image]

Anyway...

The GEC Connector thread has convinced me to use a raceway for the GEC. It should be Sched. 80, right?

Anything else stick out?

Master66 and Tom, you guys know the PoCo requirements, what say you?

[Linked Image from users.stargate.net]

[Linked Image from users.stargate.net]

[Linked Image from users.stargate.net]

[Linked Image from users.stargate.net]

Rip it apart!
Posted By: sparky66wv Re: Mission Impossible - 09/19/02 11:55 AM
I should either use a 20A receptacle or a 15A CB, just to avoid the "single receptacle" controversy...

Spacers behind the enclosure to ensure 1/4" spacing from the masonry...

Even if you can't find a violation, if you have an idea of anything in a gray area, go for it...

Thanks!

Is THWN Rated for SE use? It's sunlight resistant and listed for CT use...

I plan to either document the torque on an index card for each connection, or actually do like the guys in CA who wait to terminate with the inspector witnessing the torquing...

What about minimum bending radii?

What do y'all think?

Heck, I even used sealing rings on the PVC nipple... I want to be prepared for anything!

[This message has been edited by sparky66wv (edited 09-19-2002).]
Posted By: Redsy Re: Mission Impossible - 09/19/02 12:29 PM
spark,
Looks nice. I like the sealing rings!
How long are your drip loop tails?
What did you use to attach the raceway to the building?
If you're referring to bending radius on L1 on the load side of the meter socket, I can't see any alternative.

Make sure you update us!
BTW,
what are the black (index?) marks on the terminal screws ?
Posted By: Sean WB Re: Mission Impossible - 09/19/02 12:35 PM
Looks good from here. You should have saved some phasing tape for the next service [Linked Image] Just kidding.THWN Is good for SE here in south TX.. If you do get failed it may be for the GEC not being protected from physical damage (lawn mowing, etc) also shouldn't the meter can be bonded or somehow continuous to the panel ?? I would like to know. The meter cans we get here have a terminal for the bare #6
Looks like the old service should have been failed, for the 3' rule from windows,openings. The old service looks like its right on the window sill [Linked Image]

[This message has been edited by Sean WB (edited 09-19-2002).]
Posted By: sparky66wv Re: Mission Impossible - 09/19/02 12:44 PM
Drip loops are 30"+, PoCo requires 24".

Black Index marks are to indicate that the teminations have been torqued to specs. George Corron suggested it in the "Torque Specs" thread. I know of no other way to convince them I've used a torque wrench.

Good eye Redsy, the conduit "straps" are actually 2" "mineralac" hangers, which I have been suspicious whether or not they are listed for vertical pipe. But they give a nice 1/2" spacing that lines up perfectly with the 2" Hub offset... But you have a good point if they aren't listed.

The meter is bonded through the Grounded Conductor. The neutral terminal block is mounted without insulation to the meter can.

My PoCo doesn't want any conductors in their meter cans except for the lines, loads, and noodles (neutrals). Absolutely no GECs or bond wires!

Additional bonding between the Metercan and Disco will actually provide a parallel path for neutral current and should be avoided.

Keep 'em coming! You won't hurt my feelings!

[Linked Image]

Oh yes, should I paint the GC white rather than tape for the "permanent means" controversy? What paint is listed for the use?

My point of attachment anchor and PVC and Weather head are just over 36" from the windows. Kosher?

I also plan to use PVC for the conduit to the GFCI recept rather than an offset nipple. The bubble cover can't be opened 90º the way it is...

[Linked Image]

[This message has been edited by sparky66wv (edited 09-19-2002).]
Posted By: ElectricAL Re: Mission Impossible - 09/19/02 01:23 PM
'66

Speaking to the bending radius on L1, around here, contractors and poco alike will take the conductor(s) completely around the inside of the meter enclosure to avoid sharp bends. Lay this one in the lower left lug coming from 10:30. Adds about 2' to the length of the conductor.

Al
Posted By: mamills Re: Mission Impossible - 09/19/02 01:29 PM
Virgil:
I Like the use of the wire ties to dress the GFCI circuit.

Question: Assuming that this service will eventually replace the one existing (due to the large lugs), how and where will the new service enter the building? Any info to share about what the old service consists of? Just curious.

Very nice installation. Much better then many I have seen. [Linked Image]

Mike (mamills)

[This message has been edited by mamills (edited 09-19-2002).]
Posted By: Joe Tedesco Re: Mission Impossible - 09/19/02 01:42 PM
Nice work!

However, the point of attachment?

Where will it be located?

I see the possibility of the conductors being located less than 3 feet from the windows that can be opened.

Your inspector charges for inspections?

Is he a third party?



[This message has been edited by Joe Tedesco (edited 10-20-2003).]
Posted By: sparky66wv Re: Mission Impossible - 09/19/02 01:49 PM
Intersting History:

[Linked Image from users.stargate.net]

[Linked Image from users.stargate.net]

The Bank of Williamsburg was built in 1920 and opened in 1921. It closed for business on Black Thursday, the banker attempted suicide by driving off the Sinking Creek Bridge, but failed. He went home and shot himself and succeeded. Later it was used as a merchantile. There is an apartment upstairs.

The brick was made on site, and are solid with no holes. Lots of oak inside, and really neat light fixtures that I'll probably rebuild with new sockets and wire.

I'll have pix of the inside when I get there the next time.

The building was wired 20 years before power came to the town. Here's the original service entrance:

[Linked Image from users.stargate.net]

Here's the pad that secured the genset:

[Linked Image from users.stargate.net]

Later, a 200A service was installed, probably in the late 60's early 70's.

This pix shows three generations of service equipment:

[Linked Image from users.stargate.net]

A really neat old building!

[This message has been edited by sparky66wv (edited 09-19-2002).]
Posted By: sparky66wv Re: Mission Impossible - 09/19/02 02:03 PM
Forgot to mention that the inside will be gutted for the most part, and something to run power tools on is all they want for the time being.

Joe, the Point of Attachment is about 6" below and 8" to the right of the weatherhead.

I had similar concerns, but my AHJ and the PoCo engineer aparently had no problems with it. The Triplex will pass in front of the right window, and will be close enough to concern me. For the job coming up, this won't be a concern.

Yes, the inspector is third party.

Thanks!

OK, now I'm running late....

[This message has been edited by sparky66wv (edited 09-19-2002).]
Posted By: mamills Re: Mission Impossible - 09/19/02 04:06 PM
Virgil:
Thanks for the extra pix. Will be interested in seeing what you do to rehab the light fixtures. Kinduva unique perspective, seeing three generations of electric service like that, also.

Is that a bundle of NM's snaking up the wall from the 1970's vintage equipment?

Mike (mamills)
Posted By: Tom Re: Mission Impossible - 09/19/02 08:14 PM
Virgil,

You get full marks on this one (except from the French judge, but you know how that goes).

The only two points I can think of- I can't make out if the bonding screw/strap is installed and we'll presume that there are no metal water lines in this building.

Extra credit for the little straps on the grounding electrode conductor (250.64(B)), often overlooked.

If the two items I mentioned are in fact taken care of, I'd have no problem passing this one (I know you're 3 feet from the windows)

Tom
Posted By: Electricmanscott Re: Mission Impossible - 09/20/02 12:11 AM
Looks good! I am wondering about the service panel on the outside. No basement? I also would use pvc to protect the gec. I would not use the mini's for clips mainly to prevent future unsightly rust issues! If the inspector has a problem with this one perhaps there is an old safe hidden in the building that might "accidently" fall off the roof! Always works in cartoons. Wait just thought of something. How many ground rods are installed ? Are they (it) below finished grade? The 15 amp receptacle is fine on a twenty amp breaker as it is NOT a single receptacle as defined by the NEC, it is a "multiple receptacle".
Posted By: wirewiz Re: Mission Impossible - 09/20/02 01:03 AM
Sparky,
looks great to me! One thing we are required to use here in the meter can are grounding locknuts. Could that be an issue for you? Do they even make a sealing grounding locknut?
Wirewiz
Posted By: caselec Re: Mission Impossible - 09/20/02 01:35 AM
Since he is using PVC I think the grounding locknuts would be useless.
Posted By: sparky Re: Mission Impossible - 09/20/02 01:44 AM
Virgil,
are you using mini's on a pvc or metal riser there ?, i can't tell but it looks like pvc......
Posted By: sparky66wv Re: Mission Impossible - 09/20/02 02:21 AM
Wow!

Mike, You guessed it! Old NM bundled with friction tape. It will all be ripped out, as far as I know, and I plan to put a 100A sub panel upstairs for the apartment, if I'm given my choice.

Tom, you should barely be able to make out the bonding screw just below the termination of the GEC. Yep, about 6 UV rated straps at $0.35 each from TruValue... But they make for a nice install... Heck, putting the GEC in PVC would be cheaper! (Joe, I'm sold!) My supplier only had BX straps as the closest thing they can suggest for strapping the GEC! There may be old water line in the building, but their intention is to rip it all out a start anew with either PVC or the new plastic tubing, so I didn't bother bonding it. But you make a good point!


Electricmanscott, The 3R panel is actually a feed through disco, so a 200A panel can still go into the building and some circuits, like the subfeed for the apartment, will be connected to the disco's bus via properly sized CBs.

2 Ground rods, plumb, flush, with the tops exposed for verification. 4' away from edge of building, 6' apart, one continuous #4 bare GEC buried 6".

Sparky, I had wondered about the bonding issues with the min-Es on PVC (it is PVC). What do you think? Similar concern is if a "pipe hanger" can support conduit vertically.

Wirewiz and Caselec, Are the locknuts themselves the bonding issue regardless of the PVC? Wirewiz may have a good point!

Any more? C'mon! Don't be shy! The more the merrier! You're chance to be the "impossible" inspector without hurting anyone's feelings!

[Linked Image]

[This message has been edited by sparky66wv (edited 09-19-2002).]
Posted By: wirewiz Re: Mission Impossible - 09/20/02 02:34 AM
Sparky66wv, It was the case of the locknuts themselves, I had a pvc feeder!
Wirewiz
Posted By: Sean WB Re: Mission Impossible - 09/20/02 02:43 AM
Here in south TX , I would get failed PDQ for not having the gec come from meter can to main panel. Neutral cannot be means of bonding.It seems they are concerned with losing a neutral at the service entrance. It must be continuous from meter can , through the ground bar in main panel, then to ground rod. gec MUST NOT be spliced or tapped. I will get a pic of the temporary pole I just set up that has this system. I will have to find me a pic hosting service (free hopefully) Because I would like feedback on my installations [Linked Image]
That is a clean install, I like the straps, I may begin that habit myself:0

[This message has been edited by Sean WB (edited 09-19-2002).]
Posted By: sparky66wv Re: Mission Impossible - 09/20/02 02:44 AM
I forgot to make clear that this inspection has already passed, but I'm using it as an example to see what I may need to plan for on the next one.

Wirewiz, my first thought was the same as caselec, then I thought about it for a moment!

Sean, I wish we could connect the GEC at that point. Our underground cans even have provisions for the GEC but we're not allowed to use them!

Tom, do you know the rationale behind this?

You folks are great! Thanks a bunch!

(Am I sadistic {or is that masochistic?} or what?!?!)

[Linked Image]

[This message has been edited by sparky66wv (edited 09-19-2002).]
Posted By: master66 Re: Mission Impossible - 09/20/02 03:58 AM
Looks good to me except for maybe the distance from the window to the P.O.A.
But, if the poco didn't have a problem with it who am I to complain. Just hope the future tennants don't use the tri-plex as a clothes line [Linked Image].

If it were me, I would have tried to get above the windows but I don't know the particulars of the job.

And I thought that I was the only one that used plastic bushings on PVC... did it for years.

Looks good!
Posted By: Sean WB Re: Mission Impossible - 09/20/02 04:40 AM
Article 100 Page 4 of 9
General

Grounding Electrode Conductor

The definition for “Grounding Electrode Conductors” was revised to read:
Grounding Electrode Conductor. The conductor that connects the grounding electrode to the grounded (neutral) conductor at service equipment [250.24(A)], source of a separately derived system [250.30(A)(2)], or to the equipment grounding conductor at each building or structure disconnect that is supplied by a feeder [250.32(E)].
Posted By: sparky66wv Re: Mission Impossible - 09/20/02 04:53 AM
Would not the Service Disconnect be considered part of the Service Equipment?

But I like the way you think, Sean!
Posted By: Sean WB Re: Mission Impossible - 09/20/02 05:32 AM
as well as the meter
Posted By: sparky66wv Re: Mission Impossible - 09/20/02 05:37 AM
Hmmmm... I might just have to let Tom or Master66 he'p me out on this one!

You're gonna fit in well here, Sean!
Posted By: sparky Re: Mission Impossible - 09/20/02 09:47 AM
Quote
Sparky, I had wondered about the bonding issues with the min-Es on PVC (it is PVC). What do you think?

well i've been busted on it before.... the rationale being mini-Es are not listed for pvc, and do not allow for the pvc to expand/contract. Bonding would follow the definition of 'fitting' vs. 'fastener'......
(please don't go there, or we'll be bonding #100 staples too...) [Linked Image]

in my case i had 4-500kcmil's in 4" sch 80, and used beeline hangers every 30" , the AHJ let it go.....after i bemoaned the wieght of the riser vs. cheesy 4" two hole straps or quickclips..... [Linked Image]

(methinks a similar thread ran a yr or so ago on this?)

as to the definitional application of 'pipe hanger' , i have no white book reference
(or can't find one) ..... my god, we're the nitpickyest trade! [Linked Image]

anyhow,
your truely the Tom Cruise of the industry, carry on!
( you DID wear all black & a ski mask doing this right?) [Linked Image]
Posted By: Electricmanscott Re: Mission Impossible - 09/20/02 11:07 AM
In response to a few posts here, the way i am reading the NEC the gec must be connected to the service at the service disconnecting means which would not be the meter. 250.24 a 1. I also do not believe the meter is part of the "service equipment" as defined by the NEC.

[This message has been edited by Electricmanscott (edited 09-20-2002).]
Posted By: resqcapt19 Re: Mission Impossible - 09/20/02 01:19 PM
Scott,
Quote
250.24(A)(1) General. The connection shall be made at any accessible point from the load end of the service drop or service lateral to and including the terminal or bus to which the grounded service conductor is connected at the service disconnecting means.
Some argue that the meter is not accessible, but I think that it is, its just not readily accessible.
Don
Posted By: Sean WB Re: Mission Impossible - 09/21/02 04:34 AM
I stand corrected. 230.66 clears that up
[Linked Image]
carry on........ LOL
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