Is the 1/4" Knock-out hole in the bottom of some 3-R panels and discos an additional "weep" hole (they already have two, one in each corner...) or are they intended for use for the GEC to pass through?

If not, what type of connectors are listed for #6 and #4 bare copper solid soft drawn wire? The NM connectors I buy are only listed for 2 14-2-Gs to 1 10-2-G NM or UF Cables.

I have a feeling I've been doing this wrong for a long time...

[This message has been edited by sparky66wv (edited 09-14-2002).]

I have always used the 1/4 knockout fot the #6 ground wire. Was tought that that is why it's there. Never had any inspector say anythig about it. Have worked in 5 different states and at least 15 different cities.

66WV:
We use a 1/2" ko, and a MNC conn. Other than that a 1/2" ko, emt/pvc, etc.
Never used the 1/4 hole.
John

BTW; snail mail went Friday, late afternoon

What's the hole for?

Nothing in the Disco Instructions pertaining to it...



Thanks, John... (looking forward to the mail)

<dumb question>
What's an MNC connector?
</dumb question>

Crap, won't get to put the "100% Code Compliant" sticker on the service I did today...



[This message has been edited by sparky66wv (edited 09-14-2002).]

Virgil,

Are you talking about a hole or a 1/4" KO? If you have to punch it out how can it be there for drainage (or 'weep')?

Bill

This first pic shows the weephole to the left, and the 1/4" KO to the center.



This second pic shows the weephole on the right.

So, what's it for?

<perfectionist>
Man, I didn't notice before how crooked the washers were...
</perfectionist>

[This message has been edited by sparky66wv (edited 09-14-2002).]

I always thought they were there to be used. They are also in the Bottom and Top of every indoor-rated panelboard that I've ever seen. I've always used them for the GECs.

Bill

Joe T., what is your take on this?

I thought they were for the flanges (the bolts that hold them on, rather) that fit over the big holes for weather heads. I dunno its always been a guess.

A regional practice in parts of NorCal is the use of 8-, 6- or 4-AWG galvanized/armored bare copper with a 3/8-inch "two screw" connector, and a ground clamp that independently secures/bonds the armor and copper conductor. I believe this has evolved from details in utility-accepted service-entrance requirements.

What brand of Connectors are listed for #6 or #4 bare? Once again, mine are only good for specific cables...

So, either there needs to be a listed connector or there needs to be permision to use the 1/4" hole.

I don't see any other options.

Virgil,

Did someone tell you that you can't use that hole?

Bill

No one told me, but Joe's 4th post here got me to thinking:
https://www.electrical-contractor.net/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001602.html

Took me a while to find it, thought I had dreamt it there for a minute!



Joe, your views here would be greatly valued!

[This message has been edited by sparky66wv (edited 09-15-2002).]

NFPA 70, 2002,

110.12(A) Unused Openings. Unused cable or raceway openings in boxes, raceways, auxiliary gutters, cabinets, cutout boxes, meter socket enclosures, equipment cases, or housings shall be effectively closed ..........................

NECH: In the 2002 Code, 110.12(A) has been revised by changing the phrase "unused openings" to "unused cable or raceway openings" to clarify that openings such as "weep holes are not required to be closed up."

we would do well to find the listed usage of said hole...

[real world]
also, what would be the effects of lightning mitigation via a secured GEC vs. unsecured ?
[/real world]

But can I put my GEC through it?

If not, what type of approved connector should I use?



[This message has been edited by sparky66wv (edited 09-15-2002).]

I will look for the information that will help us to determine the recommendations that are given by the manufacturer concerning the "w e e p h o l e", in the meantime I would use this fitting.

[This message has been edited by Joe Tedesco (edited 09-15-2002).]

Where does the code say that the GEC needs a connector? I've always thought that the 1/4 KO was for that purpose. Of course 250.64(B) will require protection for the GEC in some cases, and if so most in this area use PVC conduit to provide the required protection.
Don

If you look at the bottom left of page 39 in the Square D Residential Products Catalog, it states; "5/16 KO for ground conductor". Page Link

[edited Link]

[This message has been edited by Webmaster (edited 09-17-2002).]

Joe, do you have a catalogue # and a brand name for that connector?

That's what I'm looking for, I guess...

(Assuming it's listed for the purpose)

Thanks!

It looks like an MC connector with a grounding locknut. I would guess armored ground is being used.

Curt

66WV:
"NMC" connector is a romex connector
(Non-Metalic Cable), sorry for the confusion,
some of us up here call them RX conn, for "Romex Connector" but, alas "Romex" is actually a registered trade name,

John

Oh, sorry, John, I thought I was missing something... I had no idea it was a typo!

I've called them NMC (non-metallic cable) connectors too!

Doh!

pg 39 nails it,
both my milbank & anchor catalogs show a 1/4~1/2 combo ko.......

(A clip from page 39)

Where do I find similar online info for a GE TM820RCUFL 200A 3R Feed-through disconnect?

314.17 Conductors Entering Conduit Boxes or Fittings sends me to 314.17(D) Conductors 4 AWG and Larger (I use #4 bare) which sends me to 300.4(F) Insulated Fittings which states "ungrounded conductors" so it's exempt there...

250.64 Grounding Electrode Conductor Installation doesn't seem to help much either...

Aye yi yi... (or however you spell that!)

heh! 250.64(E) was my first stop too....

Many years ago, I went on a service call where the customer was complaining of bright/dim lights in their home.

This, as we all know, usually means a bad neutral.

When I took the cover off of the panel I noticed an arcing between the GEC and the panel where it passed through this 1/4" (or 5/16") hole.

It must have been arcing for some time because the GEC (solid copper #6) was discolored due to heat as was the metal of the panel wall.

I did find out that the neutral was bad and ended up upgrading the SE.

Ever since then I've been using a 1/2" NMC cable connector. I believe that that arcing wire could have caused a fire if it had been near something combustible and that it would be better if the GEC was secured as it passed through the wall of the panel.

Well, safety implications are noted. However, the problem is the possible code loop where there are two solutions to a problem, and both may violate 110.3(B) for not being listed for the purpose.

3/8" NMC Connectors are not listed for a single, bare, solid, #4 AWG conductor.

If the connector Joe shows is indeed a BX connector, it would not be listed for my application, as I cannot aquire amoured #4 or #6 bare or insulated green conductors at my supplier.

The 1/4" hole in the enclosures (with the exception of Sq D) are apparently not listed for anything.

I guess I could use sched 80 PVC all the way down to 6" below grade, but that would end an interesting discussion!

Master,

It sounds like the Panelboard was not bonded properly.

Bill

This is a good example of my observation that as time goes on, some aspects of accepted quality standards deteriorate. (Has anyone else noticed 25 NM homeruns bundled on a basement sole plate with no regard to derating?) I also never liked the 2-piece NM connectors (Tomic) that provide little, if any actual securing to anything without squeezing the daylights out of the 8 cables passing through them.
I always used to connect the GEC with a romex connector, until I got back into resi work and noticed all of the new homes have it poked through. Now I'm not sure which is correct.
I also noticed that the "weep holes" were on the top as well
as bottom, but figured that the manufacturer wanted to make sure that the orientation of the panel was irrelevant.???????

We take a short piece of 1/2 or 3/4 pvc drill a hole in the bottom for the ground wire to run out of and bury the rest in ground.Protect for phy. damage They won`t let run unprotected, looks neat.Other words knock out hole in bottom box install pipe from box down in ground and drill hole hear rod and fish out ground wire hook to rod done.

Look here on the right side of the page where the fitting looks like the one used above.

http://www.bptfittings.com/main.html

I also reviewed the contractor's corner, and it was helpful.

Bottom line, although the "weep hole" has been used for the GEC in many installations, is that the hole is not really designed for that use!

The bonding of the enclosure to the GEC is required by the code, and cannot be accomplished without the use of a properly designed fitting. I would leave a RED TAG on a service if I found that the "weep hole" was uused for the GEC.

The best way to settle this issue is to submit a proposal to CMP 5 and I would be willing to bet, that the comment rejecting it would be similiar to my comment above.

So, then the bond through the bond screw or equipment ground bus mounting screws doesn't count?

How does one bond it to the enclosure when using PVC for protection?

[This message has been edited by sparky66wv (edited 09-16-2002).]

Bill,

Perhaps a bad bond was part of the problem but, my point is I feel that it is better to secure that GEC where it enters the panel. Or, on the other hand, if you can't use a NMC connector because it isn't listed then it should enter the panel by some sort of raceway, either PVC or EMT (properly bonded of course) but by no means should it be allowed to "float" inside of that 1/4" or 5/16" hole unsecured where arcing could ever become a problem.

Joe - I'm with sparky66wv on this one. The code requires the Grounding electrode conductor to be bonded to the enclosure but this is accomplished by connecting it to the ground or neutral buss that is bonded to the enclosure. The connectors shown on link you provided are for AC/MC cable not bare copper. If you use armored wire or install it in a raceway how are you supposed to bond the wire? The armor or raceway must be bonded with a bonding LN or grounding bushing but the wire still just gets connected to the buss.

Curt

[This message has been edited by caselec (edited 09-17-2002).]

arcing?


what would be the effects of lightning mitigation via unsecured 5/16 vs. a connector holding the GEC?

Steve, could you elaborate?

Joe,

Given that you would present a RED FLAG, which NEC section would you quote?

I'm not trying to be hard to get along with, I genuinely want to know.

Thanks!

Since the subject is of panelboard cabinets and the weep hole, would 312.5(A) and (C) be of interest?

A few weeks ago Joe T had some discussion of the definition of cable vs conductor.

Though, the text does not specifically state "Conductor" in 312.5 being secured to a cabinet, it does say "Conductors".
312.5(B) ends with " - - - and firmly secured to the enclosure." and 312.5(C) states in part " - - - each cable shall be secured to the cabinet, - - -."

Seem to me that any conductor or cable entering an enclosure needs to be secured to the enclosure so that any abuse to that/those conductors will not be transmitted to the conductor termination within the enclosure.

As an example see 527.4(I).

When that requirement was added to ( 305-4(i) ) the substantation was when secured to the enclosure, stress would not be transmitted to the terminal(s) within enclosure.

How can I reduce the width of this post so that it can be read with-out using the horizontal slide bar ( and also print ) ?

The long url sending us to the Square D site for a catalog is why the width is excessive.

You cannot change that message.

Glenn,

I edited the page Link in one of the posts. That seemed to help some. If you highlight just the text in the boxes and choose "Print" then "Selection" it should just print the text and it will fit on a regular page width.

First, a weep hole is supposed to be used to discharge condensation!

I would cite 110.2, and also base my decision on the following NFPA Codes 70 and 70B that give me a reason that will help to support my rejection.

This would be easy to explain to anyone who is involved in electrical installations.

NEC 2002, 555.11 Circuit Breakers, Switches, Panelboards, and Marine Power Outlets.

Circuit breakers and switches installed in gasketed enclosures shall be arranged to permit required manual operation without exposing the interior of the enclosure.

All such enclosures shall be arranged with a weep hole to discharge condensation.

70B, 21-4.3.4

On an outdoor busway, a visual check should be made to ascertain if weep hole screws have been removed in accordance with the manufacturer’s instructions.

3.11.2

Circuit breakers and switches installed in gasketed enclosures shall be arranged to permit required manual operation without exposing the interior of the enclosure.

All such enclosures shall be arranged with a weep hole to discharge condensation.



[This message has been edited by Joe Tedesco (edited 09-17-2002).]

So, then I should open all of the 1/4" KO's to allow for weeping of the condensation?

Thanks for the concise answer, Joe, and GWZ, thank you as well for your input.

My synopsis: since there's no listed connector for bare solid copper #6 or #4 wire without armor, then a raceway must be used.

The weep holes (if that is what they indeed are) need to be opened to allow drainage, but somehow must also comply with 110.12(A)...

Does this sound reasonable?

Personally, I don't like weep holes that are large enough to allow bees and wasps to enter, but hey, code is code.

[This message has been edited by sparky66wv (edited 09-17-2002).]

Yes, I agree.

Also, the following proposal has been sent to NFPA for the next 2005 NEC.

"Proposal for NFPA: 70

Section/Paragraph: 110.11

Recommendation: Enclosures installed in wet or damp locations shall be arranged with weep holes to discharge condensation, and shall not be used for any other purpose.

Substantiation: Although used for many years, "weep holes" are not designed to be used for the grounding electrode conductor.

The subject of "weep holes" is included in the 2002 NEC in Article 555, and in NFPA 70B.

Change Recommends: New Text

Original Material: Yes

Joe Tedesco
www.joetedesco.com

Thanks Joe!

I'm done thrashing this deceased equestrian!



Anyone can chime in if they have something to add, however...

The weep holes are the small holes that are already open when you buy the product. They are not the 1/4" or other size KOs.
Don

Joe,
Is it your position that the 1/4" KOs are the weep holes and that they must be knocked out when installing a 3R enclosure in a wet location? I've never seen an enclosure that was rated only as a 3R without small holes in the back corners of the bottom. The picture in Sparky66wv''s post of 9/14 at 9:57PM is a perfect example of this type of enclosure. The weep holes are open and there is a 1/4" KO for other use. The weep holes are open when the enclosure is shipped and are too small to be used for the grounding conductor. I have worked on some dual rated enclosures that came with instructions to remove a screw from the weep holes when used as a 3R enclosure.
Don

yes... the GE's & GEC are for voltage gradient & lightning /HV discharge.

as you know....

what are the effects/pro's/con's of a captivated GEC vs. one loose in the
*GEC hole i.e.-choke coil effect?

*as it's apparently not a weep hole...

Adding an opinion here. I thought it was clear, at least from Square D, that the hole is intended (can we assume investigated?) for use by a GEC. It is trade practice to use it as such. I've done it, and seen it done for a pretty good while now.

Has anyone ever had a problem with this? With all the eyes and ears out there, can we come up with a picture of one damaged? An accident report? I've never seen arcing evidence, and I've done a lot of fire jobs, anyone else?

Unless someone offers evidence to the contrary, as an inspector, I would allow the practice.

Heck—no one's opened a can of worms at E-C.net for at least an hour, so here goes...

1) Ever notice that a significant number of manufacturer-furnished weep holes in 3R enclosures are partially or completely plugged by paint?

2) Weep holes have their place in conditions of falling water. Where it’s “hose-directed,” this may often be a misapplication, but that gets into NEMA 4/4X territory.

3} Square D makes an extra-decent {XOP} disconnect switch with a NEMA 12/3 enclosure rating. [This excludes any of that idiotic, dim-witted “12K” crap. That idea’s right up there with ashtrys on motorcycles.] Anyways, their instructions for use as type 3 are/were to drill a couple of (specific-sized) holes in the enclosure bottom plate.

This subject is growing, and unless I can see, or read some specific words that are truly part of a recognized standard, or code, I will stand behind my comments made here. I thought 110.2 would be that rule.

As I said earlier, I know that the 1/4" hole, or whatever size it is, has been used for many years for the GEC without being bonded to the enclosure, or cabinet.

If that hole is OK for the GEC, then why is there no fitting available that will be capable of being bonded to the enclosure?

The image below shows pieces of a GEC at a service after being hit by lightning. A student brought it to a class for show and tell.

I do have another image that may be helpful but cannot locate it at the moment.



[This message has been edited by Joe Tedesco (edited 09-19-2002).]

Joe,
Can you cite any documents that say the 1/4" KOs are the weep holes? Can you cite a rule that says the GEC must use a connector when it enters an enclosure?
Don

Joe,
circumstances man!!! Nothing takes a direct strike. No doubt that's some righteous damage.

Joe - Even when using a 1/2" K.O. what type of connector are we supposed to use to bond the bare wire to the enclosure? You have shown several types of connectors that are suitable for bonding the armor of armored ground cable but the bare wire is still not bonded until it connects to the neutral buss inside the panel. If the grounding electrode conductor is installed in a raceway it does not get bonded to the enclosure. It may get connected to a grounding bushing on the raceway but this bonds it to the raceway not the enclosure. Is it your opinion that the GEC cold not be installed in PVC since there is no way to bond the wire as it enters the enclosure? I'm not trying to argue with you but if saying the reason that you don't feel that the 1/4" K.O.s' should be used because of bonding then I would like to know how to make a proper installation.

Curt

Seems to me that the words " open wiring " in 312.5(B) and 314.17(B) requires single conductor to be firmly secured to the enclosure.

312.5(B)'s verbage has me picturing those old K&T meters , i am not sure of the definitional interpertation of 'conductor' vs. 'cable' in this article...

314.17(D) here is interesting as i stock #4 cu for all 100 & 200A services....

(D) Conductors 4 AWG or Larger. Installation shall comply with 300.4(F).

which brought me to 300.4(F) here;

despite raceway,cable or conductor is the intent of both is 'ungrounded'....?

The Siemens catalog identifies these as "0.25" K.O." and shows them in the diagram for indoor enclosures(diagram Q7) located in the top and bottom of the enclosure. Why would there be a "weep hole" in an indoor enclosure or a weep hole in the top of any enclosure? In diagram Q2 it refers to these holes as K.O.'s for 0.25" conduit. Since when is there 1/4" conduit? Diagram Q7 also shows 12 K.O.'s for 0.38" conduit. These are all UL listed enclosures.

Whoa! I really started somethin'!

Yikes!



*runs and hides under bed*

Boy, I thought my puter was gonna catch fire there for a minute!



GWZ,

Splitting hairs with "conductor" vs. "conductors" would be the only loophole out of that one... I think the intent of the NEC would/should be clear, however.

Personally, I wish I could be partially responsible for practically one big black vertical line on the entire '05 code. Just too much subjectivity with the current verbage.

(chucks an ROP under Virgil's bed..)


Go for it, i'm not sure where or how, perhaps via exception to current rulings???

Go to www.ilsco.com and do a search on grounding and look at this bonding connector.GRM GRD CONNECTOR CU/ALUM.

It comes with a 1/4 or 5/16 stud and I suspect that this may be the purpose of the 1/4" ko.
I have had to use this fitting on larger services in the CT can to satisfy poco.

GRM
GRD CONNECTOR AL/CU


[This message has been edited by txsparky (edited 09-20-2002).]

[This message has been edited by txsparky (edited 09-20-2002).]

[This message has been edited by txsparky (edited 09-20-2002).]

I rather imagine that about a year from now we'll have a CMP comment.

Here is a reply from Mark Ode from UL

The choice seems to be evident.

What about the lone 1/4" KO without an outer 1/2" KO around it?

[This message has been edited by sparky66wv (edited 09-24-2002).]

But are we back at what connector is listed for a bare #4?

Yep, round and round we go!

Don'cha just love code loops!

Just use the 1/4" ko and you don't need a connector per the UL response.
Don

But Don, they're only talking about the KO that is inside a 1/2" KO...

In other words, the one in my pix is left out of the options!

Sparky,
It is not a weep hole and if a 1/4" KO inside of a larger KO doesn't require a connector for the GEC, then why should a 1/4" KO by itself require a connector?
Don

Well, it was just the loophole of no mention of the "stand alone" 1/4" KO in the UL report that leaves a little to subjectivity...

Boy what a can of worms!

The 1/4" hole has an intended use by the manufacturer...use it for the GEC and you are fine.

it is NOT a weep hole......plain and simple!

The bonding of the service panel takes place at the buss bar and not at the connector bringing in the GEC.....

Weep holes should be WEEP HOLES as that should go without saying....weep holes are VERY different than the KO that MUST be removed next to the SE KO's in the panel.

If the manufacturer states their use...then use it...thats MY opinion !

I have a different take on thes tiny KO's.

I believe they are intended for the phone, cable, and satellite guys, so that they can ground their stuff.

Naturally, I have never seen that done; it seems that their employers forbid them to open the panel, and rahter have than clamp onto any handy piece of pipe.

Reno, your thoughts violate 250.94, as it requires an external bonding location.

I talked with a Sqaure D tech support guy, and got it in writing that the little hole is for the GEC.

Thanks, Ryan ... for both the correction, and the info!

Reno, this is one reason I like a driven rod, adjacent to the utility entry. Even if you have other robust grounding electrodes the rod gives the cable co, telco and satellite guys a good, unambiguous, place to bond their entry protectors.
If I see the other utilities driving rods I make sure they get bonded to the service GES.
Sometimes you have to fight with the telco droid about this. They don't believe the electrical inspector can tell them anything.
Usually a call to the telco engineering department fixes this.

Joe,

Please look again at the statement of the Mark Ode...I will highlight in BOLD the issues I see with that statement.

1.) Mr. Ode Stated :A weep hole or drain hole, usually located in each corner of the
enclosure must be left open and not used for a No. 4 grounding electrode
conductor, even though it fits extremely well.

My response- Which holes would he be looking at...I dont see a # 4 AWG fitting in a true WEEP HOLE.

2.) Mr. Ode's statement: "There are some panels that have the corner drain holes with an additional
small knockout inside of a larger knockout where either the small knockout
can be removed and a No. 4 inserted into the hole or the larger knockout
can be removed with a connector installed and then the No. 4 inserted into
the connector and tightened down. These knockouts were installed so that
the user would not hopefully feel the need to use the weep holes for this
purpose.

My response is : within his statement he is saying two things.....that weep holes have knockouts in them...which I dont agree with...and they can be used.....

I will assume he is refering to the smaller KO designed for the GEC....not for WEEP HOLES....his statement is very back and forth and not very clear......

You cant say you can't use weep holes and then say a weep hole has a knockout in it...and if the larger inside is removed use it.....weep holes are not to be used in this manner regardless.....the small 1/4" type hole near the SE cable enterance at the bottom or top is not a weep hole....it is put their by the manufacturer for the GEC.

The small WEEP holes are in the corners as Mr. Ode stated.....

Hope this helps...

He in Lancaster, we are told that next code cycle an approved fitting for GEC will be required. The are calling them Kenny clamps. I have only seen ones that work on solid conductorand CU only. I personally not used them as they are not reversable and would need to be cut off if a panel change would arise. I'll stick with NMC conn for untill told otherwise.

Phil(Ob)

http://www.mwelectricmfg.com/NewAdditions.html

"The only UL Listed Connector that will insure grounding electrode condustor installations are code compliant!!!

All Service rated Panel boards, Pad Mount and Dry Type Transformer Installations are NOT being installed meeting the minimum NEC requirements!!

The Kenny Clamp is the ONLY UL Listed connector for bonding and grounding of electrode conductors in panel boards, Pad Mount, Dry type Transformers, metallic raceways and enclosures.

Install Kenny Clamp through a ½” Knockout with paint removed, tighten the steel locknut, insert grounding electrode conductor through the Kenny Clamp, and tighten the compression nut."

I guess that would fine in regards to using the 1/2" KO for the entrance. But the manufacturer provided a 1/4" opening that must be knocked out in the bottom or top of the panel next to the SE KO's location for the purpose of the GEC per their intentions.

Now I like the looks of that clamp for entering into 1/2" KO's.....great stuff....but they are streaching it on the claims and code references.

Until the manufacturers stop providing this opening...chances are it will always be used and meet compliance as the manufacturer intends.

How about this hole. It's not a weep hole.
[img]http://www.nachi.org/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=7481&d=1165167407[/img]

Agreed.....it should not be used for the GEC...but as we know it was used in this case...a freakin mounting hole no less...

Makes you wonder..WAS the approved KO hole on the bottom and why they just did not use the correct one...

Man I just realized this was back from 2002....quite some time ago this topic took place....

I'm just curious about something here... If we're all talking about just a standard NEMA 3R panel outside... we're not talking about a gasketed, and sealed enclosure. It has a deadfront that allows airflow, just as much as the flop-down outside cover would. I don't see how any condensation that might accumulate wouldn't just drip out the front of the panel, just as easy as it would a "weephole". I've used the tiny knockout in the bottom of most every panelchange I've performed, in many different jurisdictions in California (and one in NY), I've never been shot down or even had this brought up as a weep hole.
On a semi-flush installation, I'd think it would be beneficial for any mishappened moisture to make it's way out the front, rather than ending up inside a wall where all kinds of fun stuff can happen.. (toxic mold caused by an EC would be a lawyers heyday! )

Wow, this an old thread..... Some names I haven't seen in some time....

Anyway, IMO.... the only time this "HOLE" could be used is if, and only IF the ground conductor is bonded to the neutral for 250.94

Otherwise, I have no idea, the only other time I have ever used one was to put a 1/4-20 in it for a lug. Used to have a boss who would like to feel under there for a nut. No pun intended.... So he would know I used a lug, instead of those crappy bonding do-dads the panel came with.

But even though the hole fits a conductor great, as some of might know, it would have a inductive 'choke effect' on any current during a fault on the conductor. And although allowed by code, it is a bad practice in some peoples minds.

I'm with Phil on this one, NMC for the GEC. Although It's been interesting reading through this thread seeing how other Electricians handle this. Would be nice to see some concrete proof on that Kenny clamp being code compliant.

Luke

I have been having a life and haven't spent any time on this board in a few. Wow! you folks sure can sure whip up a lather over nothing.
I am quite suprised that no one has mentioned pole mounted services. REA specifications call for that hole to be used to exit the ground wire for clamping to the poco ground wire (# 6) extending to the copper plate on the pole bottom. This is done with a split bolt or sometimes with a compression fitting. This way, your ground wire only has to be 18 inches long. Of course, here in the Ozarks, routinely 200 Amp SE's are tied in with #6. Since the Coop lineman is the closest thing to an inspector that most rural installations ever see, that's what you get. I just completed a surge arrestor installation on a chicken farm last week and want to return with my camera, many of you will be shocked and appalled at the shoddy workmanship and disregard for the code. (example: a sub feeder to one of the 5 houses consisted of 2- 2-0 Al & the neutral was a # 10 TW...)This job was just across the Okla. line...

An aside: In southern Indiana the poco required the ground wire to be connected to the GR terminal inside the main breaker with no connection allowed inside the meter base. Their rationale was that ONCE a kid had been playing with a bare ground wire, pulled it out, and then stuck it back up into the little hole... the poco got sued...of course. Now everybody else has to adapt. I was taught to encase my ground with a piece of 1/2' emt and found out by accident that if the run is at all complex, insert the # 4 solid before bending the pipe...sparky's late night, unmarked truck outen state 'lectric

[This message has been edited by Almost Fried (edited 12-04-2006).]