Hi all;

Wanted to get some input from memebers as to your experiences with Energy Management Controllers [EMCs], either being installed new by you, serviced by you, or upgraded/changed out by you. Hopefully, this will start a nice thread on the subject.

I have experienced different faults and problems with a few different types, plus have built some simple, yet relable ones myself for a few projects.

Some were Andover, some from custom vendors.

Problems began when the EMC would fail somehow, then a service company would be called in to try to fix the problem. After some time, the problems would compound beyond belief, so we would be called in to re-design a new system. I had the designing tasks and coordination of control equipment, but each site was different.

These were added to many of our clients sites during an Energy Conservation upgrade. They are somewhat required in California, where the Energy Conservation Code [AKA Title 24, part 6] is inforced on any new, remodel or TI Commercial projects. Doesn't have to be a real complex system everytime, but the basics are to allow for occupancy level lighting, bi-level lighting, auto shut off for interior lighting with a manual 2 hour override, along with exterior lighting being controlled via either a photocell or Electronic astro timeswitch.

I am looking for any stories, situations, examples of custom designing and the like, to get some outside feedback on the subject.

Thanks in advance!!

Scott. "S.E.T."

Darn, got no feedback on this subject!
I'll try something else.

Scott.

Scott,

We know you had the Flu and didn't want to hit you with too much. (Kidding) I have a friend that has had experience with systems used in Retail stores and have been trying to get him in here to make some comments. - He tried once, typed up this long post and (forgot to register) ended up losing it. Anyway, He might have some opinions for you.

I, myself do not really have any experience with the lighting aspect of Energy Management. I did, however have some experience some time ago with HVAC controls.
That's a different subject.

Bill

Bill;

Thanks for the reply.

The EMC's I am referring to would also have HVAC controlling capabilities. Anything you or your friend can post will be greatly appreciated.

I am feeling much better as of today, so I guess it's back to posting !!!!

Scott.

Scott,

The ones I installed consisted of Electronic thermostats, a communications loop to all thermostats in a building and then to a telephone line which connected to a computer terminal in the office. there were 5 buildings connected like this. Sensors & relays in units I installed every inch of it (in a past life as a Maintenance Mechanic) It was a Honeywell system - it seemed pretty adequate for control and even some diagnostics. The only thing that was not used were the fresh air dampers, why? I dunno. The Mechanical contractor had lost or damaged much of the operating equip. as I remember.

Bill & Scott;
I was on a crew that wired a large Dept. store's lights, heat, ac, signs, even cash registers. All these circuits looped thru a panel full of soleniods that were activated via phone by the computer at the chain's central office.I don't think it was energy management in terms of conservation...if that's what the term means.

Sparky,

It sounds like it was Energy management. This is the area that my friend has had experience with, and I only, by knowing it was there. The stores have different lighting levels for different times of day or night. There would typically be a small lighting and A/C - Heating scheme that remained on 24/7 and then a short time before opening lighting levels would change to allow clerks (associates is proper I believe) to see to stock shelves, clean etc. At opening time Light levels come up full, Lighted Display cases and all signage comes on with A/C & Heat. And then at closing the process gets reversed.

As a side note:
This Retail chain recently went out of business and pieces of the stores were liquidated. I was involved in dismantling several stores (Electrically) to get back to Bare walls and ceiling. We did this process carefully and thouroughly, making sure to cap and cover everything after removed. This was on a by the hour basis. The liquidator's Home office did not appreciate this "unnecesary" expense and tried to subvert it at the end and even withholding payment. Needless to say, in all the other stores things were ripped out, usually by the purchaser at times when power was not "up" and therefore leaving a hazard to be met when things turned back on. I don't see how the individual Landlords allowed this, but it happened.

Geeez....I really dislike working for those types that see our trade as a necessary evil, especially when it's their _____we could be saving..........

People are inquiring as to the cost of operating any given electrical installation more often these days. I think we are at 13-14 cents a KW hour here now...I guess "Energy Management" could be the trade's next buzz word, even in the residential market

Sparky,

By me (Long Island) they've been giving instant rebates on Motion Detectors ($15 on a $14.99 fixture!) Flourescent Bulbs & Fixtures. Right at the register - no Mail-in coupons. The Utility is sponsoring it.

Hi Everyone;

The systems that you are referring to are indeed the ones that I was hoping to start a nice thread on. They are exactly as you have stated - HVAC controlling, Lighting control, etc. and have the ability to be remotely administered via MODEM connection.

I have seen quite a variety of EMCs, ranging from simple - stand alone units [basically a "dumb terminal" type of CPU and an uploaded program, plus MODEM support], to very elaborate systems used for multi floor corporate headquarters and such.

The vast majority of my work load for the last 8 to 10 years has been in the Commercial Banking Industry. Remodels, T.I.s, New, Service, Design/Build and Energy Management/Conservation upgrades ranging from individual branch locations, to their Corporate Headquarters [AKA Campuses].

A particular EMC system which was installed in lots of branches for a certain bank that has been Integrated by a well known bank [I don't know if I should use names - I don't like court!!] included a light level testing capability for the ATM lighting, along with HVAC, Interior Lighting controls per zones, exterior lighting and signs control - plus MODEM support [every one that I have seen had MODEM support].
Here in California, the Financial Code requires a minimum amount of lighting at and around the ATMs. The code section is formally known as FC 13,000 however it is better known by the Assembly Bill that was submitted to the state legislature - AB 244.
The problems with this system were that it only informed the service provider that there was a problem, and a lot of the remote sensors failed quickly!
The clients got frustrated with the red tape from the service provider/company, that they finally abandoned the entire contract to them and had the systems removed.

Seeing all the trouble and hearing all the complaints that the clients had, along with seeing the providers side too, made it clear to me that there must be an EMC that can benefit all that are involved.
I would like to design some that have the capabilities of the marketed EMCs, but be easy enough for the client to not only program, but have repaired by their choice of service techs [even their corporate maintenance techs] if a component fails.

That in a nutshell is why every banking firm we have been involved with wants to get rid of their existing EMCs. I have built a few for new and remodel branches that are just fine [the bank people just love them!!]. They are simple to program and repair.
I built them to conform with California's energy conservation code [Title 24, part 6].

I tell ya, I have seen some real BIG 2 story branches with all the lights left on 24/7! It's mind boggling to think of how much is wasted in KWHs to light the entire interior of a branch over a weekend !!

Keep up the great messages and by all means, if you have any suggestions, post them.

See ya soon

Scott

Scott,

One of the other Buildings We had space in (Multiple Tenants) had the Lighting controlled on a schedule and could Be overriden with a Telephone call. Each Tenant had a code for their area. When going in during off hours someone would call up, key in a code and the lights would come on (I think they might have been timed or turned off after the alarm was reset. I don't remember.

Bill,

Ya, most of the EMCs I have seen have that support via an internal MODEM. If an employee was going to the site after hours, they would call in and "schedule" the time they would be at the site, so when they arrived, the lights would be on and the HVAC system would have the area comfortable [either heated or cooled].
Some systems were accessable directly [user called it directly], while others were remotely administrated [service provider was called by the user, then the provider would do the override]. They had an "alarm" which would "flash" off then on a set of lights about 10 minutes prior to the scheduled override off event, so the user could then call in and extend the override for a period of time.
This can become a real nuicance when you are busy and the override time expires. We had to have someone in charge of just calling the override in while we were doing some large weekend remodels at corp. headquarters! This was a system done with remote administration from a provider, so we could not get them to run overrides more than 2 hours at a time!
Since it was this way, I was very reluctant to temporarily bypass anything [hardwire tweek!], so we just dealt with the nuicance.

I'll add a few more things later.

Scott.

Hello All,
Just found this site and this subject.
Have been installing Andovers for 15 years and most problems I have seen stem from software. Mainly programmers not understanding what they are controlling.
Now I just program them myself.
Hardware on these things is pretty robust.
Another problem is sequence of operations, the owner thinks it should do this and the PM thinks it is doing that. Define going in what is the sequence is and it will save you headaches and time in the long run.

Hello Henry and welcome to the group!!

A majority of the EMCs that I have dealt with were made by Andover [I believe the model #s were AV8, or something like that].

There were quite a few instances in which the battery for back-up power had failed - either by being disconnected, bad connections, or completely removed - making the terminal lose it's program. The Client was having too much trouble trying to get the Service Provider, that they had originally contracted these systems' administration and maintenance, to come out and resolve the problems. This was part of the Client's last straw!

I tried to get the program from that Service Provider and they were extremely reluctant to even think of selling it to me. Even had some of the "upper brass" from the Client explain the reason why we needed it, but no luck [I was going to program one of the dumb terminals, at least, just to see if it was operational].

I know that the Service Company was afraid that they would lose this Client's business by letting me program their EMCs, but they didn't really think the whole thing out!
They would not come fix many terminals that had failed - even after months of calls from the Client. Their lack of service was why the Client discontinued with them [along with the fact that most terminals were inoperable].

The PM personnel for the Client knew that I could program these terminals and make them work finally, plus they were still going to keep them if I could rectify the trouble, but they just got fed up with the Service Company [or Companies] to the point that they discontinued the usage of their installed EMCs in all branches.

In California, it is necessary to have some type of Energy Management System [more like Energy Conservation devices] for Commercial projects, either New, Remodel or T.I., in order to be compliant to the State's Energy Conservation Code - Title 24, part 6 of the California Building / Electrical / Mechanical Code. They can range from simple systems using an Electronic Astronomical time clock [in addition to bi-level switched lighting, motion and occupancy detectors, timed and resetable overrides and energy efficient lighting equipment], up to a fully integrated EMC system.

The Title 24 energy conservation calculations limit the actual amount of volt-amps per square foot that are installed, however this does not effect the feeder's volt-amps per square foot calculations [the feeder's load calcs are still made using the NEC's listed VA/Sq. Ft. as according to the occupancy]. I showed volt-amps per square foot because the databases will have lamp wattages and ballast load - in volt-amps [or total line power].

Correction factors and credits are given to areas with energy saving controls, such as occupancy detectors, motion sensor control and automatic ambient lighting adjustment controls [light level controllers].

There is quite a lot to cover for T24 non- residential electrical designs, so I'll stop here.

Hope to see more of you in these forums!!

Scott. "S.E.T."

I have put in some of these and had know problem that i know of. I really like them
becase most of the time the panel comes wired up. All i have to do is run my cir to the relay.The cool thing is it will do anything from outside lights to RTU

No experience with 'em.

Sorry!

Sorry Scott I missed this thread.

Many of the buildings we do have some such system, the complexity varies greatly.

I have never heard of EMCs (other than the company EMC) around here it is EMS (energy management systems), must be a local thing.

The system I like the best is made by Comptrol, we install these in the supermarkets we wire, the system consists of 'satellite' electronic boards spread out all over the building networked back to a central touch screen in the front office.

This system handles lighting, HVAC, and refrigeration.

These are 80,000 sq ft stores with a temp sensors located about every 8' in anything refrigerated.

Then using the touch screen you can map and graph anything the system monitors and they monitor everything, a check meter on the main service to keep an eye on the POCO bills, compressor head temps, head pressure, oil pressures, emergency generator status, (block temp, oil pressure, exercise etc)

Once in a will they will use VFDs on the compressors to maintain constant pressure depending on the cooling load this system will control the VFDs.

Remember for the whole store there are only about 15 compressors and dozens of different refrigerated cases, depending on how many solenoids are open calling for refrigerant will change how many or how fast the compressors must turn.

For lighting it uses a photometer which measures the light level instead of a photocell which is on or off.

The touch screen is great with a map of the store that you touch to zoom in to get more detail and levels of info.

Anything that is outside the parameters generates an alarm to the main help desk and techs. are dispatched most times without the knowledge of the store.

Another customer that has large department stores uses a similar system, one of the strangest things is the key switch at the door the last person leaves from.

Turn the key and the store goes 100% dead, not an exit sign not a night light even the plugs on the sales floor go dead.

This means interconnection to the fire panel to bring up the lights if the panel trips.

To save money the Air Conditioning shuts down before the store closes and they 'coast' form there, at about 3 or 4 in the morning the roof units start pumping cool outside air into the building and will take the store down below the normal target temp before switching to mechanical cooling.

There are indoor and outdoor thermostats and humidistat's that the controller uses to 'make decisions' on the timing of these events, the controller 'learns' how the building responds daily.

Sorry for the rambling, ask some specific questions and I will try to answer, I know about the hardware not much about the software.

Bob

[This message has been edited by iwire (edited 04-10-2004).]

We can thank the transistor for making such wonders possible.

Here's the ones we use in auto dealerships.
Each dealership will have a few setups like this around the place.




The control unit (on the right cabinet)is made by a company called LCD. It's programmable by the local keypad (under the cat5 cable), by LAN, or by telephone through its modem. All the systems (HVAC, FA, Security) go through the system, so it's very flexible. The relays (up & down the rt and left side of control cabinet) are rated @ 20A, so the larger or simultaneous loads go through the contactors in the left hand cabinet, with the controller's relay running the contactor coil.
The contactors are GE, and consist of a base containing the coil, and contact blocks that are mounted to the base (very installer/service friendly).

Having spent much toil in the past making many lighting controls from mechanical timers, photocells, lighting contactors, octal-base (icecube) relays, and jumper wires, I can really appreciate the new technology stuff.
We Californians have been at this a long time, and this makes life much easier...S



[This message has been edited by electure (edited 04-12-2004).]

Scott without saying any names we have had no end of trouble with the newer style contactors in the left hand cabinet.

We have had to have company reps come out to new jobs to try to track down the source of the problem.

Call me old fashion but I like NEMA stuff over IEC stuff, unless I have very little space to fit the equipment in.

I do believe we installed an electronics package like the one on the right in a parking garage it worked great until getting water logged, hardly a problem with the design more of a bad installation.

Do you design the equipment to fail "on" that is something I always try to do for lighting loads, and the super markets actually have the refrigeration fail "on", you can always open doors if things get too cold.

Bob

Hey, I remember this thread!
It's an old one!!!

Would like to discuss this stuff in more detail, so will create a new thread in the Electrical Theory section later this week.

Bob,

EMS is just one of the terms "Thrown Around" out here.
EMS being "Energy Management System".
The other terms are:

• EMC: Energy Management Controller,
• BAS: Building Automation System,
• BAC: Building Automation Controller,
• BMC: Building Management Controller.

Very interesting Animals, they are!
Definitely worth duscussion here!

Also, per CEC Title 24, Part6, they are of assistance for credits, and at times are mandatory.
Devices used are to be "Listed" as Recognized by the Commission.

Scott35

Bob, I've only had to replace 1 base and 1 contact block that I remember with the contactors (I already mentioned the manufacturer's name). These aren't lightly loaded, either. The circuits in this particular photo are mostly site lighting, 30Amp 480V circs.

An added benefit to the "newfangled" units are the fact that bypasses can be accomplished by a button, or as mentioned before, a phone call.
An old "Catch 22" was the CA required zonal bypass timers. We used the spring wound "twist" type timer switches. Because of the twisting motion required, they didn't meet ADA requirements. We were stuck between a rock and a hard spot...S