Most lights come with a small note stating that they are not to be connected to anything less than 90C wire, or pre-1985 wiring.

This is usually found on the bottom of the instructions after the packaging and pre-cast foam enclosure is totally destroyed.

Sometimes there is a 'consult an electrician' disclaimer to be also seen.

I would like advice on the installation of these in an older (pre-85') 3-story home.

caution please.... loaded Q.....

This could get ugly. The real answer for me is I am not sure of the absolute legal, no loop holes, code compliant answer short of rewiring the circuit. I have heard of people pigtailing thhn to the wires and connecting them to the light. Honestly I just install the fixtures. It seems that all fixtures these days have this requirement and I would bet there are more installed "illegaly" than not. I believe this is more of a cover your ass from the manufacturers than any horrific safety hazard. Regardless of the wire type the fact is if it is not bright enough people will not hesitate to install the higest wattage bulb they can find. That to me would be far more of a hazard.

It's a sticky situation at best.

I give my clients a fixture schedule that will include the caution that 90ºC wiring requirement will result in additional installation charges. They are left with the task of working through how to balance their aesthetics vs. cost vs. installation fee.

This is a topic I have pondered (and pounded) a bit myself. I would assume that the warnings are the result of tests based on a worst-case scenario, such as insulation and hot attic above.

I would like to see the testing results based on various conditions such as encountered in spaces between floors where there is no insulation or other contributing heat (ex. Attic) factors. In this case perhaps 75C wiring would still be acceptable.

Bill

[This message has been edited by Bill Addiss (edited 09-03-2002).]

So guys what do you do? ElecticAL what would the addtional installation costs entail? I think this is a great topic an a common situation and i hope to see some honest answers.

I believe this new temp. requirement is due to homeoners habit of installing 100 watt bulbs in fixtures limited to 60.
On a surface-mount ceiling fixture, the excess heat will rise into the outlet box and (over)heat the wiring.
I seem to notice that ceiling fixtures that have lampholders that aren't close to the ceiling don't have the warning.
As far as a solution...

I have purchased small rolls of high-temp. electrical insulation from McMaster-Carr.
It comes in different sizes to slide over the existing insulation of different conductors. It is inexpensive ($7.00 for 10')and I am more comfortable with using it than I am just installing the fixture on 60c. wire.

Go to mcmastercarr.com and search for 7453K86

[This message has been edited by Redsy (edited 09-03-2002).]

highlights from past disscussion include;

~installing a thermal cut-out from IC cans

~installing a ceramic cieling disc bettween fixture & cieling

~having a 'floating' JB within the cieling that makes older wire to 90C wire

~90C pigtails

~wattage specific bulb bases


remember...nearly all fixtures sold have this info, and are subject to a market primarily pre-85.

what's your advice?


Steve aka sparky

E Scott,

The price per fixture is situational.

A chunck of my clients live in single family dwellings built prior to 90ºC wire. I am almost always working directly for the homeowner, so communication is direct. The wiring method at the fixture runs the gamit from most common as #1:
1. K&T
2. BX (pre-drain wire, rubber insulated cloth covered conductors)
3. Flex (T or TW)
4. Rigid (rubber insulated cloth covered conductors)
5. NM and NMB (the innercity "all-metal-code" relaxed and allowed NM in 1975)
The first conversation, the estimate, will bring out the changes of fixtures that the homeowner intends. I'll give my client the information about the importance of not overheating the wires, and let them marry that info with their aesthetics. The worst problem occurs when they have already purchased the fixtures, and they are on shoe string budgets. Like as not, these folks will not hire me, or will exchange the fixtures.

I'll be at most of the jobs a couple days, so, when there is the need to know the price ahead of time, I'll pull the old fixtures first, put up pigtails for temp light, take stock of the visible j-box wiring. At that point, I'm comfortable with giving a price, explaining that buried violations will add yet more. In my experience, the visible wiring in open mechanical areas is a great indicator of what I will find inside the wall, and will guide me in my cautions ahead-of-time to the homeowner.

My take on the 90ºC fixtures is that they will heat the supply wiring and all the other conductors that may be in the j-box. All the wires that terminate in or pass through the fixture j-box must be 90ºC.

Check this out. Let me have some opinions, please.
http://www.mcmaster.com/catalog/108/html/0669.html

no disrespect to anyone here nor was I the originator of this question BUT I still see no answers here as to what to do with this situation. For better or worse I told you how I handle this. I know there are many of you reading this. I am curious to see some honest answers. I do not believe that all you guys are rewiring houses in order to install replacement fixtures. I also do not believe it is neccesary. I have taken down more than my fair share of fixtures only to get a handful of overcooked insulation. I have come across just as many with insulation that is perfectly fine.

A viable option Redsy.....let's see if any tech support people show?!


exactly Al...... now would you ( or anyone) market an item that has a narrow market?

with a small and somewhat technically oriented disclaimer/warning easily misunderstood (thus blown off) by the general public?

note this is not the generic ' hot coffee in yer crotch burns' deal, it refers to technical jargon...

how is it the NRTL's would allow such a scenario marketed?

but that is another sister thread to go along with the Validity of the NEC



...... realize that if WE, as a BB of skilled tradesmen fumble explaining how to change a simple light fixture to the DIY'ers here......pot meet kettle.....i now this is a rather unpalatable subject, yet it exists for me as well as you....


honest Q, honest A...Electricmanscott,

i'd wager the majority of fixtures simply get changed out, and that's that.....

Guys,

I had the same problems years ago when I was in my own business. For the most part, I would just wire to the existing outlet if the wires in the box looked good. If there was an attic, then we could add a floating box up there, or if the light was between floor and the wires was in bad shape, we sometimes had to put in a flying box above the new light fixture. By the way all of my elec. contractor friends and my inspector friends back then couldn't give me an answer either. Basically it is the usual CYA for the light fixture company. They don't want to be held liable in case of a fire. All the responsability will fall on the contractor.

In reality this, as said before, is a CYA for the manufacturers. I am more than familiar with old insulation falling off in my hand.(my house 1930.s for one, along with many I have worked on)

In my case when we redid the house we used antique fixtures. Being that the only code problem here is "follow the manufacturers recomendations and there was none, I simply took all precautions that could be taken dealing with old wires.

This type work (without the 90C problem at hand) is one of the most frettfull task we have to deal with ie, wondering if by moving these wires around in the box actualy caused problems upline that we couldn't see.

This type work is dangerous enough for the seasoned pro, much less the DIYer.

On the otherhand if he is being coached through a project (books, family electrician, neighbor, or friend) that is simple enough,
there should be no problem.

Roger

Redsy — The McM 7453K-series [slang—"silex"] will do when nothing else will. The material is the classic "motor rewind" sleeving. Use two layers if you're nervous.

Many little old ladies like them 200-watt PS incansdescents in their kitchen ceilings.


[This message has been edited by Bjarney (edited 09-04-2002).]