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Posted By: Redsy New receptacle/old home. - 04/12/01 07:04 PM
While we are comparing local practices, I have another subject.
In doing some real-estate transaction work, I have been asked to install receptacles(GFCI-type) in bathrooms of older homes where there is no receptacle at all. This is to satisfy township use & occupancy requirements. The (twp.) AHJ says to grab power from the vanity fixture outlet box. After doing this twice, I began to wonder about the wisdom of not having installed the required (210-11 c 3)separate bath ckt. Obviously, in most cases, the cost to the seller would be significantly higher. Most of these homes are over 40-50 yrs old, anyway, and don't have small appliance or laundy cicuits, either so I dont know if it's worth suggesting running a new bath ckt. Thoughts?
Posted By: wayne Re: New receptacle/old home. - 04/12/01 08:16 PM
Redsy I understand where you are comming from. I personally would install a new branch cir as required. Prior to the code change for the new bath cir, when I priced a service change I would upgrade 4/w range,dryer ect and bring everthing up to code.Most would only change panel only, and according to adj that is all we would have to do. But on the other hand use empirical judgement.And according to the Current Code.I know most people are concern with the cost,We are concerned with the safety as well as abiding by the code. Which is a set of principles that we All Electricans should or must follow to promote safety to everyone.
Wayne
Posted By: Mike Re: New receptacle/old home. - 04/12/01 09:02 PM
Here in Warrshington state, I would bet dollars to donuts that the AHJ would require installing a dedicated circuit for the bathroom GFCI. Our AHJs can be hard-nosed at times.
Posted By: Steve T Re: New receptacle/old home. - 04/17/01 02:45 AM
I say tear down the house and rebuild it because a lot of things with building, plumbing, and mechanical are not up to code either.

But seriously, where do you draw the line?

If the receptacle is not there and there is no neutral available at the switch, I think the AHJ's are requiring too much work for an existing situation.
Posted By: Bill Addiss Re: New receptacle/old home. - 04/17/01 04:32 AM
Redsy,

I too would always try to do it right and install a new circuit. Some people though cannot see the value in this. Local AHJs have said it's OK to install a GFCI receptacle as an extension to existing. I figure that it is still an improvement over the person plugging into the fixture over the vanity, at least it will be GFCI protected.

Bill
Posted By: SlamTex Re: New receptacle/old home. - 04/18/01 02:00 AM
I think that I will "chime" with the others, and install the new circuit. With the problems of curling irons, and hair dryers tripping circuits, you can "kill two birds with one stone."

HMEL 688
Posted By: zapped1012 Re: New receptacle/old home. - 04/18/01 11:31 PM
INSTALL A NEW CIRCUIT. I WOULD SLEEP BETTER AT NIGHT, ESPECIALLY IN A OLDER HOUSE.
Posted By: sparky Re: New receptacle/old home. - 04/19/01 01:39 AM
I see a lot of bias when it comes down to whom is hired by whom in this situation. Is it the realtors sparky?, the buyers?

I see NFPA 73 used to define the 'line' , not by NEC, but fire AHJ's.

This is for big no-no's
-no receptacles in a room
-no cover plates
-extension cords under carpets
-open JB's or no KO seals
-loose or unsecured wiring
(basically the photo violations section)

[Linked Image]

So the next obvious Q is how to prioritize repairs, etc. when asked to comment on older maintenace-challenged dwellings over and above this.
[Linked Image]

-GFI's
-Smokes
-proper GEC & bonding
-proper Service size ( really no sense in growing branches if the trunks rotted!)
-Dedicated appliances
-Dedicated circuits ( kit, bath , etc)
-Possible AFCI's to those K&T circuits
bettween floors
-Split up & derate older circuits above
- reterminate & pigtail all old to new devices
-replace old & worn fixtures
-Home runs as far as possible, any future renovation to continue the circuit.


This is very generic, so don't flame it apart! I tell customers that this is how i would proceed if i were to move in!

[Linked Image]
Posted By: zapped1012 Re: New receptacle/old home. - 04/19/01 02:25 AM
SPARKY,AS YOU KNOW REALTORS WANT WORK DONE AS CHEAP AS POSSIBLE, JUST TO MAKE IT LOOK GOOD, FOR A QUICK SALE. SAFETY DOESN'T MEAN MUCH.
Posted By: Redsy Re: New receptacle/old home. - 04/19/01 03:38 PM
Thanks, guys. I am trying not to rationalize, but it seems to me that tying into an existing dedicated bath ckt to feed a non-bath ckt is a violation. But,is tapping into an existing non-dedicated-bath ckt to provide power to a bath truly a violation? As Bill pointed out the local AHJ is OK with this,and it is an improvement over the fixture receptacle. And as Steve stated -where do you draw the line for the purposes of re-selling an older home?

[This message has been edited by Redsy (edited 04-19-2001).]
Posted By: sparky Re: New receptacle/old home. - 04/19/01 08:05 PM
Zap;
so true!
i'm called in after the 'home inspector' who usually works for the realtor has 'found' the problems i need to address.

they do not usually want my advise, nor do i feel obligated to give it unless i'm asked.

my billing is headed
"electrical work as directed"

the ethical and/or moral implications fall on the powers that be who require absolutly NO certification for these "home-inspectors" in my area ( making it hard on the real ones)

[Linked Image]
Posted By: Bill Addiss Re: New receptacle/old home. - 04/19/01 08:18 PM
Redsy,

The other side of the coin ..
Ask yourself this, is adding a receptacle in a bathroom that will likely be heavily loaded by a 1875w hairdryer to a existing 15a circuit in questionable condition really an improvement?

Installing the new circuit might avoid some problems.

Bill
Posted By: golf junkie Re: New receptacle/old home. - 04/22/01 04:53 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Bill Addiss:
Redsy,

The other side of the coin ..
Ask yourself this, is adding a receptacle in a bathroom that will likely be heavily loaded by a 1875w hairdryer to a existing 15a circuit in questionable condition really an improvement?

Installing the new circuit might avoid some problems.

Bill


OK Bill, which side of the fence are you on???
To answer the question you posed.
Yes, it's an improvement.
Is a dedicated circuit better....of course it is.
But if the customer cannot be sold on the benefits of additional work, and the AHJ has no problem with it, then it is an improvement to tap power for the GFI from an available source. Of course overload protection for that source needs to be verfied.

Biggest problem I find on a routine basis is old screw type fuseboxes with 30A fuses on all the circuits.......but's that probably another thread entirely!
Posted By: Bill Addiss Re: New receptacle/old home. - 04/22/01 05:49 PM
Golf junkie,

Can I call you Gj?
not really a good typer ..

Welcome aboard, always looking to meet someone interested in the Trade.

I will always try and put a dedicated circuit in if at all possible.

My personal opinion ... (for starters) is that UL should require a 20A plug on any Hairdrier over 1440 watts (80% of a 15A circuit). Just like anything else.

Ever see one of these?
[Linked Image]
There's more versions coming out all the time.

[Linked Image]
Bill
Posted By: sparky Re: New receptacle/old home. - 04/22/01 08:20 PM
Hi Gj !
welcome to an excellent forum here, many who are into the trade, much good advice, etc.

in my opinion apprentices should be held to hours here as accountable.

Bill, is that a 'backstab' special?
[Linked Image]

clarification;
i don't mean to sound like i'd blindly go about what others wish i do electrically. But i do need to feed the fam ! We all see no-no's on a daily basis. Where the LINE is drawn is a fairly good Q, one i've asked my AHJ and insurer. The answer gravitates bettween situational and ethical points of view.
The feedback i'm recieving eludes to 'what i touch', 'repair' 'get a tool on'
if it were 'what i see' i would forever be quoting the NEC

[Linked Image]
Posted By: Bill Addiss Re: New receptacle/old home. - 04/23/01 01:57 AM
Sparky,

No, it's an Aluminum wired receptacle. I think over the years they tend to loosen up a bit and sure don't need the daily workout that an 1875 watter can give to it.

I've got some worse than that I used to carry around to make a point.
Here's a side view of this one:

[Linked Image]

Bill
Posted By: sam Re: New receptacle/old home. - 04/23/01 02:17 AM
that picture is scarie!!good way to make a house a fire box!
Posted By: Redsy Re: New receptacle/old home. - 04/23/01 11:36 AM
Let me shed a little more insight (or controversy.) There is usually a fixture-mounted receptacle that presumably has been,
and would otherwise continue to be used to power curling irons, etc. Is it an improvement to disconnect it and feed a GFCI receptacle below it? Yes. Is it a violation? I dunno.

[This message has been edited by Redsy (edited 04-23-2001).]
Posted By: Bill Addiss Re: New receptacle/old home. - 04/23/01 01:16 PM
Redsy,

No argument that it's an Improvement over using the Fixture-mounted receptacle. If there was no receptacle in there at all it could be viewed differently. When you think about it if a Hairdrier is being used in this house it could be somewhere else, possibly on a different circuit. Using it on the Bathroom circuit (which is of unknown condition) may or may not be better than where it was. (Strictly Speaking) In that case it's a "Toss-up"
... Back on the Fence

Sam,

The really scary part is that this outlet was 2 rooms away, not used and had wood panelled walls (box set back) and a bed (Mattress) up against it. This was apparently the weakest point in that circuit. It's something to think about.

Bill
Posted By: Scott35 Re: New receptacle/old home. - 04/23/01 05:23 PM
I've seen a few Receptacles which were barbecued kind of to the extent of the one in Bill's attached image. Not quite as fried, but close to it.

The ones I had replaced [in houses - I'll leave out the vast amount of damaged outlets in Commercial installs] were mostly where the branch circuits were connected "In Series" - where the makeup was done on the Receptacle's terminals, rather than using Wirenuts and Pigtails.
Lots of older houses [circa 1955 - 1960] with the NM cable W/O ground had these types of terminations.

Other R&R Receptacles were- of course - Bathroom Receptacles [gee, I wonder why?? [Linked Image] ]
Along side of each one was the 1800 Watt blow dryer, which also had a fried cord cap / plug.
Some had replacement caps.

A few outlets were torched from portable electric floor heaters. They would usualy have signs of guilt too - their plugs were all charcoal.

I'm thinking seriously about not only having dedicated circuits per bathroom receptacles [1 circuit per bathroom], but using heavy duty 20 amp Hospital grade GFCI receptacles, or something in Spec grade which holds really solid.
Along with that, promote leaving the device plugged in at all times [to reduce internal contact / wiper wear].
This would be for my own house, or suggestions towards a person building a house, who mistakenly asks me for advice [Linked Image]
[P.S. this is the "edit" portion - forgot to include that personal note part the first time. my mind is wandering off againnnnnnnnnn..........]

This might not work so well for those whom have recepts real close to sinks and such. Ours are far enough away that a plugged in appliance would not be able to fall into the sink.

Scott SET

[This message has been edited by Scott35 (edited 04-24-2001).]
Posted By: sparky Re: New receptacle/old home. - 04/23/01 08:03 PM
Scott; i'll second that for a new installation, but for the thread.....

Redsy;
if there is an existing receptacle that is non-gfi in a light fixture or med-cab then is the AHJ's concern with load on old circuits or GFI protection?

I point this out because a GFI breaker
( assuming breakers) may equal a cut in GFI T&M wise. There is the possibility of the AFCI/GFCI combo also

Better protected in the dark than energized in the light? dunno.....

Bill, is that a strong fence???
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
Posted By: Bill Addiss Re: New receptacle/old home. - 04/24/01 12:50 AM
Sparky,

It better be a strong Fence!!

It would be better to cut in a Receptacle on the Circuit I think because the Fixture wires are usually pretty small.

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
Bill
Posted By: Redsy Re: New receptacle/old home. - 04/24/01 10:59 AM
Sparky,

Tha AHJ concern is GFCI protection, not loading. Remember that this is a safety inspection for a real estate transfer. They also insist on installing a ground rod if none exists, and all current GFCI location requirements. Not a bad idea, in all. However I cringe to think about them getting involved in proper design, retro-actively!! As far as GFI breaker, I agree, but, interestingly enough, the most recent job involved a (here we go) Federal Pacific panel that was about 45 years old. This was overlooked until I recommended replacement. So much for Twp. AHJ.
Posted By: njelectricmaster Re: New receptacle/old home. - 04/29/01 09:19 PM
I know I'm new to the forum, but I will stick in my two cents as well.
I am a service electrician and forman in Colorado Springs, colorado. Home inspectors are the norm, and are usually paid by the perspective buyer or the buyers agent. When they call me to come do the repairs that the inspector caught,I am liable (leagaly) to tell the buyer, the seller, and the inspector of any additional things that I see that are EXTREEM hazards.
If I am called in to add a GFCI recept. in the bathroom, I do what I feel the situation requires, and usually that meens going back to the panel.... BUT if I open the panel and find that there are multiple violations I'm required to stop work and inform them that a service upgrade will be required.
After that, I report to the building dept. on what I have done or found. If I install something I am LEAGALY responsible, therefor I do everything in a manner that I can sleep at night !
Posted By: sparky Re: New receptacle/old home. - 04/29/01 10:17 PM
Hi nj, welcome !
i gotta say i'm a tad jealous that you have an AHJ to fall back on.
we gotta have a 5-alarmer here to gain one's attention, to make a long story short, there's nothing like an AHJ ( i mean a real one, not sudo-home-inspector-gadget-fool) to make the call !
[Linked Image]
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