ECN Forum
Posted By: Cindy switch? - 07/12/02 12:21 AM
can someone point me to a switch that can be used for two appliances? not sure if this is ok or not ---- but i wanted to take an existing circuit switch leg flexed into the garbage disposal and flex it into a j-box to use it for both a disposal and a 120v instant hot water heater --- so i'd blank and abandon the wall switch and run the old switch leg black, white, and egc as the 120v circuit to be shared from the j-box, then go from the j-box to a cabinet front double throw switch {????) and take the switch leg back into the disposal, and another into the instant h.w.heater------ so that when the switch is to the left the disposal operates, and when it's to the right then the h.w.heater operates, which would obviously be the normal position except for the rare occasions that the disposal is needed.

i think the double throw switch isn't the right term [they open/close 2 legs like 240 or 277, or 2 motors together, right?], and i'm not sure if there's any code problem here...... probably something obvious huh? never claimed to be smart [Linked Image]
Posted By: caselec Re: switch? - 07/12/02 01:06 AM
Cindy

You are correct with the term double throw switch. Just use a standard 3-way switch. Connect the hot to the common terminal, the disposal to one of the traveler terminals and the instant hot to the other traveler terminal. Another option would be to use an air switch designed just for this application. ISE and Franke make them. They plug into a constant hot receptacle and have two receptacles on the air switch box. One for the disposal and one for the instant hot. When you press the button it turns the disposal on and the instant hot off.

Curt
Posted By: Cindy Re: switch? - 07/12/02 01:40 AM
thanks curt, found an air switch here: http://www.homeportfolio.com/catalog/Listing.jhtml?catId=483&avId=13970

always embarrassing to find something i haven't dealt with before. let me see if i understand ---- it's just a push button switch that's in some kind of receptacle housing with a pigtail on it that you plug into any receptacle? then you plug the disposer into this receptacle-housing air-switch-box, and it has another receptacle to plug the instant h.w. into?

thought about the 3-way idea, but it sounded too easy --- thought it should be harder than that [Linked Image]

i didn't want to run another circuit inside the walls or underfloor, so this sounds like the trick
Posted By: Electric Eagle Re: switch? - 07/12/02 01:43 AM
This sounds like a great plan to me. I can't think of a reason why you couldn't do it, although if posible I would fish a wire from the current switch box for the instant hot and replace the current switch with a 3 way. If someone knows of a code against it Ihope they post it. This could really come in handy.
Posted By: caselec Re: switch? - 07/12/02 01:53 AM
Cindy

The push button is separate from the air switch box. It can be mounted in a spare hole in the sink, a hole in the counter or where ever you feel like mounting it. The button connects to the switch box with clear plastic tubing (like for aquariums) included with the kit.

Curt
Posted By: Cindy Re: switch? - 07/12/02 02:02 AM
cool, where would you find one? i think i might try the air switch just for fun

and thanks dbl-E, but this is really an ugly fishin hole, looking for a quick clean unscrew it, wire nut it, drill it, rescrew it, no mess, in and out in 15 kinda-thing
Posted By: arseegee Re: switch? - 07/12/02 03:11 AM
I get my air switches from an appliance dealer. They are made by the ISE disposal company. Runs about $50 bucks or so. Works great and they come with all the parts you need.
Posted By: Joe Tedesco Re: switch? - 07/12/02 05:03 PM
Cindy:

I would discourage this effort using the methods you are discussing. This is not the normal way for these appliances to be disconnected, and would present an unusual situation that would be difficult for some to understand.

Review the 2002 NEC Article 422, Part III. Disconnecting Means


[This message has been edited by Joe Tedesco (edited 07-13-2002).]
Posted By: Cindy Re: switch? - 07/12/02 11:03 PM
thanks for the input, but i guess i'm not able to see the problem yet...... have you wired them using this combination and had difficulty? what was the problem? electrical theory wise? i can't see that the electrons are going to have trouble with it. and it seems like an efficient use of materials. how often do we use the disposer conductors to run the disposer? seems like i might as well use them for something else when they're not busy. if there is a listing that only allows these switches to be used with one appliance, then why would they have two places to connect the appliances? i'm groping in the dark here, because i've not installed one before?

there's only one ungrounded conductor to disconnect from each appliance, no different than the single snap switch, right?

the loadcenter provides the primary disconnecting means, the receptacles would provide a secondary disconnecting means.

if it's wrong it's wrong, but help me out? 422 and 110 seem to allow it, assuming it's listed for the appliances. i'm wondering if your caution was just in regards to the homeowner who might not understand the 3-way switch used for both. guess they'd be in just as much trouble with 3-ways in a hall, so i'm still wondering -----

does everyone think this is a bad idea? i respect all opinions ..... except my own [Linked Image]
Posted By: caselec Re: switch? - 07/12/02 11:22 PM
Joe

The disconnecting means for the disposal and the instant hot unit would be their supply cords. I don't see any problem doing what she wants to do. The 3-way switch method might confuse some people but is no different that using a standard single pole switch for the disposal but it prevents the instant hot from running at the same time. The instant hot is normally plugged into to a constantly hot receptacle. The air switch is UL listed and designed for this application. Please explain why you do not feel this installation does not meet the NEC.

Curt
Posted By: motor-T Re: switch? - 07/12/02 11:37 PM
Curt:
If you tie the hot to the common of a 3-way how do you shut both when not in use ?
-Mark
Posted By: sparky Re: switch? - 07/12/02 11:48 PM
It would have to be ON-OFF-ON....
Posted By: caselec Re: switch? - 07/12/02 11:50 PM
Mark

The instant hot is not normally ever disconnected and is designed to be connected to a constant hot receptacle. The only reason to disconnect it would be for servicing and this would be done by unplugging it.

Curt
Posted By: Joe Tedesco Re: switch? - 07/13/02 01:07 AM
My concerns were directed towards the possible confusion that could become a problem for someone someday.

This method is not the way that the rest of the world thinks, and an electrical designer would not include this method in their design.

If so, I would like to hear from them and even if a few do, its still very unusual and although it may work, I still feel it is not a good idea. I did not quote the rules to call attention to any specific violation, only to give my personal opinion.
Posted By: Roger Re: switch? - 07/13/02 02:01 AM
Joe, I agree.

When we stretch things too far in the terms that there is no violation according to any authority, we are treading on very thin ice.

With enough thought we can find a loop hole in anything. IMHO thats the very reason our courts are so backed up.

I think as profesionals we should hold our ground when we are turned down for an inspection that we feel is correct, but is turned down.


On the other hand I don't think we should be trying to defeat the very purpose of the code by skating around it.

I'm probalbly in trouble again. [Linked Image]

Roger

[This message has been edited by Roger (edited 07-12-2002).]
Posted By: Cindy Re: switch? - 07/13/02 02:16 AM
thanks for that opinion joe, that's kind of what i thought you were getting at. and that's what i was looking for...... some diffent opinions.

mark, like curt said, the hot water heater is intended to be on all the time anyway.

so maybe you're wondering why didn't i want to simply put a hot water heater receptacle in the j-box so it could be on all the time [with the cord and plug, additional disconnecting means] without going to the trouble of using the switch leg? because i didn't want the potential of overloading the circuit with both the disposer and the water heater being used at the same time..... the switch solves that problem. i thought i invented something, then curt burst my bubble [Linked Image]
Posted By: motor-T Re: switch? - 07/13/02 12:20 PM
Cindy:
The Hot water may want to be on all the time but there has to be someway to shut it off, disconnect it for servicing/safty ? Instead of having to run to the basement to find the breaker and shut it off.
The way I see it is you have two separate circuits, one is a resistive load and one is a motor load. JMO but I would treat each in turn.

-Mark-
Posted By: sparky Re: switch? - 07/13/02 12:32 PM
Are they small enough to meet the provisions of 422 together?
Can a new circuit be run if not?
Posted By: Cindy Re: switch? - 07/13/02 01:11 PM
mark, i don't know how to do the quote thing you guys do all the time but you said that "The Hot water may want to be on all the time but there has to be someway to shut it off, disconnect it for servicing/safty? Instead of having to run to the basement to find the breaker and shut it off."

what's wrong with the cord and plug disconnect? it's accepted practice for appliances in 422.33(A) and even works for the range where you have to reach through the bottom range drawer 422.33(B)

and the conductors don't kow the difference between the resistive load vs the motor load as long as the circuit is rated for them and the switching device is rated for either

am i missing something, or are you guys just messing with my head?
Posted By: Cindy Re: switch? - 07/13/02 01:53 PM
use 422 and 210 for rating limitations and even in 430.24 for motors and other loads exception 3 says if the circuitry is interlocked so as to prevent operation of selected motors or other loads at the same time------ that tells me this is not a new idea for a device to provide interlocking

several sections use interlocking to allow separate loads on one circuit 220.32(C)(3), 440.34, 440.62(C)
Posted By: motor-T Re: switch? - 07/13/02 11:04 PM
Cindy:
The original thread was to use a standard 3-way switch, no the cables dont know the difference but switches have a tendency to arc and eventually burn up.
If the water heater can be disconnected by an attachment plug that should be fine, if the manufacturer says it to be so.
The wiring connections suggested seemed like a bad idea. A switch is suppose to have an off position not an on and an on position. To me, and this is just my opinion, you want to connect a water heater, small I assume, and a disposal. Why not two switches and a multi-wire circuit to the same yoke, or no switch for the hot water heater as long as it can be disconnected at the receptacle and a switch for the disposal.
I personally dont like the idea of a switch that cannot be turned off.
JMO
-Mark-
Posted By: sparky66wv Re: switch? - 07/13/02 11:40 PM
Cindy,

If you type the following (the stuff inside the code quote block) then it should work (if I get this right...)

Quote
Code
 [quote]Your quote[/quote]

and it will look like this:
Quote
Your quote


Go here:
https://www.electrical-contractor.net/ubb/ubbcode.html

...for more tricks of UBB!

[This message has been edited by sparky66wv (edited 07-13-2002).]

Hmmm.. that's weird, the code tags should make it ignore the "quote" part in brackets so you can see it.

Another thing you can do is to click on the "edit post" button to see the coding involved.

[This message has been edited by sparky66wv (edited 07-13-2002).]
Posted By: Cindy Re: switch? - 07/14/02 12:17 AM
just trying to avoid both appliances operating at the same time. thats all.

the idea was to use 1 circuit efficiently. only way to do this is to use a device that cuts out one when using the other as is commonly done in electrical installations. even the neutral is used similarly, right? each phase gets to use it alternately.

imagine leaving instructions for a family to be sure the water heater switch is off before using the disposer switch

wont go there, so i wont wire it to allow both to be on at the same time, even if that draw were within 80% of the 20 amp circuit capacity. i'm still trying to understand your concern about a 3-way switch not having an off position, its a matter of persective. it is "off" for the disposer one way, then "off" for the heater the other way...... so maybe you're thinking now that this installation is waaaaaay "off" [Linked Image]

i'm not trying to cut a corner just to make $, was just looking for an efficient use of materials and to save customer $ at the same time. joes opinion is its "not a normal way" to disconnect and might be hard to understand. marks opinion, its a "bad idea" for a wiring arrangement and use of a switch. hoping for something less subjective.

thanks for your JMO mark and joe[i'm sure you guys know a lot more than i do], hope i didnt disappoint or offend you and joe or anyone else[and i wouldnt want anyone reading or lurking to use this idea if it is a poor installation method, i'm just not convinced yet] [Linked Image]
Posted By: Cindy Re: switch? - 07/14/02 12:30 AM
so 66 i'm trying it
Quote
Another thing you can do is to click on the "edit post" button to see the coding involved.

i'm doing my yeehaw now just in case it works
Posted By: motor-T Re: switch? - 07/14/02 12:44 AM
Cindy:
Ok, Here goes, by definition of a Switch
article 100, Switch general-use, intended for general use of the distribution and branch circuits, rated in amps and capable of interrupting its rated current.
Switch, Motor-circuit, rated in hp capable of interrupting max overload current of a motor of the same hp rating as the switch at the rated voltage.
This would imply a significant difference, but that aside and considering that they both could be on the same circuit within the 80 % as you said, Why not a switch for the disposal and a receptacle for the water heater. That way they both have a disconnect and the water heater is on all the time and the disposal could be operated at will without interupting the hot water tank.
For me I cannot conccede the 3-way to be hot all the time and not have an off position. For one thing DIYers have a tendency to change things and not always understanding why or what they are changing, leastwise if we leave them a solid foundation to start with maybe they wont run amok as quickly.
As far as knowing more than you, I am not so sure, if I ever get too old to learn something new then they better close the lid.
As I said this is just how I see it

-Mark-
Posted By: caselec Re: switch? - 07/14/02 01:04 AM
I do not feel that the switch above the counter for the disposal is its disconnect. If you are working in the sink cabinet (where the disposal is) this switch is not with sight and could easily be turned on by someone. The disconnect for both of these appliances would be their supply cords. Using a double throw switch (3-way) to control the disposal might be confusing to some but in no way compromise the disconnecting means required for these appliances. I would never make an original installation in this way but Cindy is trying to work with an existing installation and trying to come up with a easy solution to connect 2 appliances to one circuit. The air switch would probably be the best bet for this job since it is designed for this exact application.

Curt
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