" Liable to ANY degree or NOT"
An Electrician is handed a set of plans from his boss ( the EC ) for a job , they are a stamped set from the Elec Eng ,
During the installation he comes to a part that violates code , and says " well thats how they want it done " and does it ,
knowing it's a violation .
Now someone get's hurt due to this .
and the Electrician says' " well thats what was on the plans and they said Do IT"
Now we know "THEY" ( GC,EC, Elec Eng) all will have some degree of liability , the big question is Does the Journeyman doing the job, have any at all , knowing what he was doing was in violation and wrong ????

HV

A Nuremburg scenario HV


was there no AHJ??

HV,
Different states vary a bit, but I'm willing to bet it's not much.

A journeyman gives direction to an apprentice, but a journeyman, by state law (at least in VA) cannot pull permits, an must take direction from a master. If it is a master licensed electrician involved in your scenario, they are quite culpable for the work they directed.

I always tell my students that getting your masters license is not necessarily a good thing

FYI, I've been asked to testify as an expert witness probably about a dozen time (once to save my own Butt) and will tell you this: If you are a master, and get into a squabble with an engineer (PE or not makes no diff) the court will throw out the testimony of the PE in favor of your practical experience, given that you have credible argument. It's worth considering carefully. Remember the guy in Conn. that was convicted of manslaughter for improperly installing a bad heater.
I look forward to hearing from our barrister on this one though.

gee thanks George now i feel better.......

High Voltage, Sparky:
Just remember the phrase, " Nicht Schuldigt ", that should help,,, If not try ,
Vee all had to answer to higher ausority..
What the hay worth a shot, right.

-Mark-

Even here with our no licenses/no inspections system, I have seen an odd case reported where someone was taken to court after his faulty wiring had caused an accident.

The law basically said: If you didn't know enough to do the job safely, you shouldn't have done it at all. You're responsible.

Paul of the UK:

The law basically said: If you didn't know enough to do the job safely, you shouldn't have done it at all. You're responsible.

What a novel idea, that a court actually said that someone is responsible for their actions, thats a difficult thread to find these days,
Hark, maybe there is still hope.

-Mark-

Paul,
LOL!
such simplicity would put many lawyers out on the streets here........

I've send back prints to our in house PE he will usually fix it and has backed me up when the fur starts to fly.Also I've been told by others to "just do it or go home".In this case will give them the defects in writting,stating that the machine will be tagged and locked off until inspection sees it.If they think they can get SPECIAL PERMISSION fine i say for it.If they cut my lock off it it gets personal.Around here if you refuse a job get you repremanded.If you do the job and follow this route you get respect.Of course they want to kill you until they come to the revelation that YOU ONLY DO THINGS THE RIGHT WAY.I did not bust my a** and eat sh*t as an apprentice to have my ticket pulled for somone who does not care.One engineer cut one of my lock outs in front of other employees when i was not on site. They handed him a Ministry of Health and Safety Booklet(CANADA) and kicked him off the floor.

Guys,
Frank does have a valid point. If you have done your homework, sent the EE, or whoever may have authority over you, IN WRITING, OR noted in your field notes that you told them, then your responsibility is significantly reduced or eliminated all together.

To that end, I have notebooks and field notebooks going back to the first job I ever ran. It takes 10 minutes a day, I started it because danged if I could remember every little thing I did 2 weeks after I did it, such as a customer asking me to wait 30 minutes to turn off power to something. I did not realize it was a legal document until much later.

Handy though

I am unfamiliar with what a Journeyman is, but I am not sure if it would change my answer anyway. If you know its wrong, regardless of what EE has in his plans, and you do it YOU WILL assume some liability, it may not be the lions share but you will be second in line to pay out. That answer goes for all the owners, a different answer goes for an electrician employee who is told by his boss JUST DO IT- in that scenario the employee will have minimal to no liability, while the boss will assume the larger portion. Actually, to play all the possible situations in my head, if an employee electrician, does the work, knowing or not that the EE messed up, and he continues the job without any input from the boss, the boss will still be liable. In an employer/employee situation, most states employ a theory of Respondeat Superior, which is latin for let the master answer- in other words if an employee is acting in furtherance of his job and there are problems later the employer will assume the liability of his employee's actions. This theory can be applied to any and all actions while on company time, most times that I encounter it is when litigating auto accidents with a company vehicle.

[This message has been edited by RMIESQ (edited 06-15-2002).]

Rob,
Beautiful answer, I did forget my Latin

The answer is in line with most states in that you can't be an electrical contractor without a MASTER. The master is, in theory, the technical head of the enterprise.

A journeyman is someone who has shown skill and knowledge of the trade sufficient to work with no direct supervision on a daily basis, but must take direction from the master, it's an OLD system, and pretty much works well.

The apprentice is just learning the trade, and must take constant supervision from a journeyman. Most states have quotas, in VA you must have no more than 3 apprentices to each journeyman. The IBEW has a 1:1 ratio, etc..

Thanks for taking the time on this one.

George,

Since you know a bit of Latin; I guess the best advise for all is "cogita ante salis et consilio et prudentia" - interpretation - Think before you leap and by wisdom and prudence you shall prevail.

(that may not be grammatically correct, sorry)

[This message has been edited by RMIESQ (edited 06-16-2002).]

Well I already like the "employee electrician" answer because that would be me.

[This message has been edited by frank (edited 06-16-2002).]

[This message has been edited by frank (edited 06-16-2002).]

Hmmm... I said the other day to my partner that the unlicensed have more than just the lack of NEC to curb their "creativity" to their advantage, their liability concerns are next to nothing, aren't they, technically?

I probably made the situation here sound more simplistic than it really is. I was thinking of a case that appeared a few years ago in which a workman (I hesitate to use the term electrician) wired a remodeled kitchen.

Don't ask me how on earth he managed it, but he somehow left exposed metalwork hot instead of grounded. Twice the owners called him back, reporting that they were getting mild shocks when they touched it, and twice he "tested" it and said that nothing was wrong. Then someone came in with bare/wet feet or whatever and was killed. He was charged with manslaughter.

But I think that's a rare case of somebody being brought to book. With no permits etc. and and virtually no paper trail (at least in most residential work), I'd bet that in many cases by the time any sort of accident happens nobody has any idea who was responsible for the work. Just another statistic chalked up to "electrical fault."

I'm no lawyer, but I'm sure that in the case of an apprentice working under direction from somebody who is supposedly knowledgable, that a large proportion of the responsibility would be aimed squarely at the person in charge, unless it was something so simple that even a greenhorn apprentice should have realized that what he was doing was dangerous.


[This message has been edited by pauluk (edited 06-16-2002).]

Paul,
the 'workman' scenario is 1/2 my biz here. i'd drop a dime on these clowns if only the state would back me up....

Sparky
That is the whole problem is getting someone to back you up. Especially the state or in my case the county or even the city. We have illegals working everywhere doint "Their thing" taking jobs by under bidding them to the point where we legal contractors would not touch them, but if reported NOTHING is ever done about it.
Here for example, the homeowner can pull the permit, and its the biggest joke, an older lady in her 80s pulls a permit to do a 200 amp service and no one questions her as to the validity of her claim.
Recently our state went through a state licensing program where if you were previously State Certified you were automatically Licensed, However; They had a grandfather clause involved that if you could show training in the electrical field they could get there contractors' license, now we have Plumbers, pipefitters and HVACs licensed as Electrical Contractors, but one consulation is maybe now the plumber wont put the hot water heater so close to the Service panel.
-Mark-

yeah Mark, bad news....

We need HV & George to make the rounds....

then watch all the rats jump ship....

Where to start, oh where to start.

Pualuk- As I said above, the apprentice and the licensed electrical employee can work free of concern of negligence liability. The employer overseeing the work (or not even on the job site) will eat any damages that result as a result of work he billed on.

Sparky- Bare with me guys, I am still not sure what State is everyone from. Many States don't take the approach I would like to see against unlicensed workers doing electrical jobs. In NY a homeowner can do their own electrical work, but someone for hire must be licensed. More often than not a contractor will come in to remodel a bath/kitchen and will say that an electrician is not needed, and in an effort to save the homeowner money he tells the homeowner to apply for what ever permits may be needed and the contractor does the work. Say some time down the line a box isn't grounded and the same scenario as above (barefoot and wet) results in death- who is liable. The homeowner, when filing for the permits indicated that he was doing the work, Here the contractor is getting away with murder. The best advice is join your local Electrical Associations, Here in NY I am the attorney for the Suffolk County Electrical Contractors Association (SCECA) There is Strength in numbers, Associations such as SCECA can lobby to have local politicians put programs in place to fine/jail unlicensed electricians.

How do I start one?

Is there one in WV?

What can I do?

WV is already far better off than other states, but also far behind the rest.

I just feel really compelled to do something about it.

Rob,

Out of curiosity, I know that in general the law in America was derived from English Common Law, then modified over the years by the individual states.

Are you aware of any major differences that have appeared between British/U.S. law in respect of responsibility/liability?

Sparky, Start with a few local people, place an ad in a local trade publication, or newspaper. The hardest part will be getting it off the ground. At SCECA they hold monthly meetings, in the begining there will probably be a handful of you wondering what your doing there, but eventually it will grow and be beneficial. SCECA offers lectures (ie Legal, the local power authority, manufacturers) which stimulates attendance. It wont be easy, but its doable. I will speak with the board members and see if they can give me any tips that I will pass on to you.

Pauluk,

The differences between English common law and our current law (both statutory and common law) is amazing, learning about the development, since the law is an ever growing system, is amazing. But the topic is way to large to discuss in a forum such as this. If you are really interested go to a local Law school book store and pick-up Prosser on Torts (its a hornbook) Prosser is considered the Guru on Negligence/Liability.

one would think there would be more advocates of 'qualified' , given all the electrical orginizations, associations, etc already out there......

Its easier to be passive than aggressive. Ask an electrician should unlicensed worker get away with doing electrical jobs, there answer will be no. Ask the same electricians if they do actively do anything to stop it, you'll get the same answer.

so true Rob...
we expect the powers that be to jump outta the closet in a timely fashion
( clad in mask & cape..) and cite those nogoodnicks faster than a speeding bullet...

Yet this is not so, and the onus may well be on us.
This is due to our lack of universal consent as to what or who is 'qualified'. We have had many heated conversations throughout the electrical BB's to this end.
Myself, i think we need to start somewhere, and have certain benchmarks seen as being qualified.
The problem is individual states do thier own thing, and the 'revenue' angle seems quite the influence.
My previous post alluded to these orginizations moving in that direction, This may be coined as 'political suicide' in some circles, and even draconian by some, yet the results may well justify the means......

IAEI
NECA
NFPA
VIECA
you get the pix.....


[This message has been edited by sparky (edited 06-17-2002).]

Your life, your community, your enviornment is what you make of it, I can assure you your opinions/feelings are not unique. The trick is to gather all the people in your situation and form the strength (in numbers) to confront the local politicians (Village, County or State) to make changes to improve your life. Many of us are afraid of the politicians (this is a feeling that the politicians try to encourage so as to make their jobs easier)but we must remember they work for us, they are in office to serve the people. If you have a legitimate problem (which this is) they must correct it.