My question, A customer with a garage has one welder and wanted 4 50a outlets for this one welder, he wanted one in each corner for convience only, so as to not have long leads all over the floor. Are there any code provision for daisy chaining these as 110v outlets just one 50a breaker in panel and then from first outlet to the next and so on.
I normally wouldn't consider this but thought someone might know a code reference off hand. thanks joe

No. See 210.3, Exception and 210.23(c)

Joe,

That seems to be a common request. It makes sense to the user. However, NEC Article 630 (Electric Welders) would not permit such an installation.

Your local electrical inspector may choose to waive the code article and permit you to install as "convenience" outlets as you describe. I would have no problem with that.

Your local inspector may not permit such an installation and justify it with the following reasoning: The owner of the garage may sell his business one day. The new owner may operate several welders at one time not knowing they are fed from one 50 amp circuit breaker.

Frank

Thanks guys, I was hoping to find a valid ref. and got it. Quick work I might add. I had no intention of installing in a chain, buta guy I work with asked for a code, he'll get it monday.

Frank,
What in 630 would prevent the requested installation?
Don

Seems to me that all 4 outlets may be fed from the same 50 amp branch circuit / breaker [all 4 outlets on the same branch circuit].

Reason[s] being that at this time, there is only one load device intended to be used at one time, and the outlets are for Convenience only - rather than intended for multiple loads to be connected, or run together.

Even if two loads were connected at the same time, this should not be a non-compliance issue to the NEC, because if the circuit is overloaded the OCPD should trip.
This would fall more under the "Bad Designing Conscept" for which at this time there is no Federally Backed Code

Last I saw in Article 90, the NEC couldn't care less if things run inefficiently, per designed criteria, or without some level of inconvienience
[per non-life threatening or non- hazardous results things ].
It [NEC] just doesn't want any Hazardous Situations installed by the installing Gods <hee, hee, hee>

Am I correct, or should I put on the Straight Jacket???


Scott S.E.T.

I would have to agree with Scott. I am not finding specific reference to the scenario. This would parrallel a bathroom or kitchens dedicated circuitry....

Not being an electrical person, I only have the ICC 1&2 Family dwelling code.

4202.5:

Multioutlet branch circutis shall be limited to a maximum branch-circuit rating of 20 amperes.

This appears to be a big (50amp v 20amp) waiver.

I guess the proper trade off might be a long power cable v. long welding leads.

I would put a 20' or 30' power cable on.

ok George,
but we can still slip out of 4202.5 because this is not a dwelling....

Don,

I referenced NEC 630.11(B) (Group of Welders) Mainly because I couldn't find anything else even close. Upon reviewing it further and more careful I noticed it states group of welders not group of welder outlets. Based on that I would presume Article 630 would not prohibit such an installation. There doesn't seem to be a clear cut answer I can find in the Code Book.
As Scott mentioned, The OCPD would open in any event to provide safety. Beyond that it's a design issue.

Frank

The exception was to cover this exact situation, except that it is for circuits OVER 50 amperes, and in industrial occupancies. There is nothing wrong with using a portable welder at more than one location on the premises, all location receptacles fed by a single circuit.
Creighton.

Welcome Creighton: That's exactly what I meant by referencing the exception in the first reply to this message above.

Thanks for your reply.

Joe

[This message has been edited by Joe Tedesco (edited 05-20-2002).]

Welcome Creighton.
I guess we are befuddled by code verbage once again here, have you ever written anything on the topic?

The original post by joeh20 specified 50 amp circuit (outlets), not greater than 50 amp as the exception indicates.

Aside from the Code issue, I would think it would be more economical to put in only one 50 amp receptacle and buy a long cord, and drape it around the wall on nails or some other better hanger.

We must take into consideration - where branch circuits with multi-outlet receptacles are used the next larger O/C protection cannot be used. This may affect the installation design.

Creighton Schwan?

If so, would you please recount your recent editorial(including Code references) in EC Magazine which addressed why replacement of non-grounding receptacles with GFCI types is unacceptable in situations where the equipment is required to be grounded. I have misplaced the issue and think it is a good point of interest.

Thank you, and I look forward to your ongoing participation.

We seem to have drifted from the original post, but as requested: In the Feb. 2002 issue of Electrical Contraactor my Code Comments pointed out that although 406.2(D)(3)(b) permits replacing a 2-wire receptacle with a GFCI receptacle, it has three good reasons against it: 1. In 250.114(3) there are listed several applicances which must be grounded. These could not be served from this ungrounded GFCI receptacle, but the homeowner doesn't know this. 2. Th required marking "No Equipment Groound" would be meaningless to most homeowners. 3. The presence of the grounding opening would lead most of us into believeing that the receptcle provides a grounding means.

Still legal, but bad code in my opinion.

Creighton.

Thank you. It is a useful point of view.

In case there are one or two readers that live under rocks and haven't been out in a while, Creighton has a monthly article in the NECA magazine.

Go to http://www.ecmag.com/backsearch/ and type "Schwan" in the first field. It returned 41 hits today.

Creighton, it is an honor to have you offering advice here. {It’s safe to say Creighton is considered by many to be a true Electrical Kingpin in Northern California.}

Welcome Creighton,

I think it's safe to say that your writings have guided many over the years. I still have copies of Wiring Simplified and Practical Electrical Wiring at home somewhere. Thanks for helping to make things understandable.

I look forward to any input you may have here.


Bill

I think that the nec does allow for this type of instalation, as in 210-21 3. it does say "supplying two or more"

210-21. Outlet Devices
3. Where connected to a branch circuit supplying two or more receptacles or outlets, receptacle ratings shall conform to the values listed in Table 210-21(b)(3), or, where larger than 50 amperes, the receptacle rating shall not be less than the branch-circuit rating.
Exception: Receptacles for one or more cord- and plug-connected arc welders shall be permitted to have ampere ratings not less than the minimum branch-circuit conductor ampacity permitted by Sections 630-11(a) or (b) as applicable for arc welders.
Table 210-21(b)(3). Receptacle Ratings for Various Size Circuits

Circuit Rating
(Amperes) Receptacle Rating
(Amperes)
15 Not over 15
20 15 or 20
30 30
40 40 or 50
50 50

:Wayne