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Posted By: aldav53 New Home Estimate - 04/12/02 05:29 PM
I just put in a bid for $4406.00 for a 1155 sq ft 2 bedrm single family home with approx 74 openings, everything electric, a 200a service, all basically standard stuff. Would like to get some approx bid comparisons. What would an approx bid be for you. Am I in the ballpark?
Thanks,
Posted By: sparky Re: New Home Estimate - 04/13/02 12:42 AM
aldav53;
Does this include the service? OH or UG?
Posted By: arseegee Re: New Home Estimate - 04/13/02 02:32 AM
Underground $3332. Overhead $3682.
Posted By: aldav53 Re: New Home Estimate - 04/13/02 04:07 AM
Underground service. Thought I might be a little high in my bid. umm..
Thanks,
Posted By: frodo Re: New Home Estimate - 04/13/02 02:29 PM
hi, all i can say is WOW! thats almost $4 a sq. foot!

where the heck are you located?

i dont think i have ever heard of $3.85 a sq foot for residential wiring...here in ky that house would go for around $2500 at the most..

hope you get it though..

good luck
-regards

frodo
Posted By: aldav53 Re: New Home Estimate - 04/13/02 05:28 PM
I'm in AZ, but may have to shave some off the bid..
Posted By: arseegee Re: New Home Estimate - 04/13/02 07:20 PM
Aldav, General contractors don't build by the sq ft and I dont wire by the sq ft. Charge for what you do! Service + 240V openings + 120V openings + tv/ph = price.
Posted By: aldav53 Re: New Home Estimate - 04/14/02 01:40 AM
arseegee, ya thats how I bid it plus 25% overhead & profit, maybe I'll cut back on O & P.
Posted By: master66 Re: New Home Estimate - 04/19/02 02:17 AM
We were recently asked to bid a similar project. We do mostly commercial and industrial work and explained to the customer that we would probably be high.
The job included a lot of recessed lights and ceiling fans in most rooms.
We proposed using CAT 5 instead of CAT 3 for phone wire and RG6 Quad shield for future home networking. A 200A OH SE w/Copper wire in conduit and a basic Leviton Home Networking panel. We bid $7,200.00. Another contractor got the job for just under $4,000.00. I'm sure that he didn't include provisions for home networking but theres still a big spread. I would like to know how anyone makes any money doing homes for this price. How much profit is there? How long does it take? How many men? How much are the men paid? Someone please, please reply.
Posted By: arseegee Re: New Home Estimate - 04/19/02 02:42 AM
Master66, speed is the key. We can rough in 9000+ sqft in a week. We pulled 6000 ft of 12/2 yesterday before 2pm. Five man crew including myself. I usually keep two crews in two places, three men on rough in and two on trim out. We can knock out a 3 bedroom spec house in one day. That's what it takes to make money in residential. All work is to my uniform standard. Any of my guys can make up a 4 gang box w/ one s.p., two three ways and a four way and I can't tell which guy it was. That way who ever comes back to trim out knows exactly what's going on. Labor runs $10-$14 per man depending on time served. We also install LANs and structured cabling for houses with a Low Voltage distro panel we custom build. It offers a lot more than Leviton or PS and is actually cheaper.
Posted By: aldav53 Re: New Home Estimate - 04/19/02 02:43 PM
I didn't get the job, they went with a lower bid. I know they bid homes tight, not a lot of profit built in, but that makes you wonder about the quality.
Posted By: donles Re: New Home Estimate - 04/19/02 09:04 PM
Absolutely. I do residential wiring by myself as a second job. Lots of repairs and relatively small jobs. I've been in some very large, expensive houses and was surprised to see very shoddy work.
I do not mean to imply all new work is like that. The folks on this forum all sound top-notch and I would love to spend some time on one of arseegee's crews learning the business.
donles
Posted By: master66 Re: New Home Estimate - 04/19/02 11:16 PM
arseegee, I'm curious about where you are from and what the labor pool is like there. I'm assuming that you are not a union contractor. I'm not either.
I have a reputation about being very particular about the quality of work that we turn out. But, its difficult to find quality help where I'm from. (60 miles south of Pittsburgh, Pa)
Posted By: arseegee Re: New Home Estimate - 04/19/02 11:54 PM
Master66. I am in GA near the coast, and we are non union. I guess I am fortunate to have a good work force although it is not easy. I always bonus my men for a job well done. I have had a couple of my lead men for several years and all my employess are under 28. The two helpers came from commercial companies and love the ease and speed of residential. I just lost a good man who moved and did my best to keep him. On his departure I shook his hand, said thanks and gave him a big farewell bonus. That type of thing gets around in the work force. If he ever moves back he'll work for me again. I too am notorious for being an stickler about the smallest detail... from roughin to trim out.

[This message has been edited by arseegee (edited 04-19-2002).]
Posted By: Fred Re: New Home Estimate - 04/20/02 01:36 AM
I am probably a fool, but I bid my residential new constructions jobs at $1000.00 for 200A service (underground with out disconnect) and electrical openings @$30.00 each. Phone and CATV are $25.00 each. Elect.range @ $50.00, elect dryer/waterheater @ $40.00.
I also let my customers know that they are getting 40ct. copper buss panels, commercial grade 15A receptacles that backwire with pressure plates and no smaller conductor than 12 ga. They get circuits with no more than 8 duplex receptacles on them and (3) small appliance circuits serving the counter tops in addition to dedicated circuits for the fridge, microwave and dw/disp. I tell them up front that they will get what they pay for and the electrical system is an investment. If they choose to cut corners on the electric they will pay for it down the road.I stay busier than I want to be.
Posted By: The Watt Doctor Re: New Home Estimate - 04/20/02 02:04 AM
I've been on the commercial, manufacturing, industrial scene for my entire career, but it seems like I always have people asking me about houses. My company doesn't do them ($20.00 to $22.00 per hr for a Journeyman), but I've done a few on the side. I would be willing to pay for a home video of a "jam up" residential crew "getting after it". More importantly to me, would be to know the secrets to speed in residential.
As I'm sure that you all know, resi, commercial, industrial, etc, are all very different, and I'm always interested in learning more.

Resilogical Regards,
Doc
Posted By: arseegee Re: New Home Estimate - 04/20/02 03:21 AM
Doc, preperation is the key. I try my best to have everything for the job on the trucks before my men roll out, EVERYTHING! I make sure that I personally lay out each job by hand and label the circuits on the studs. Since I have calculated loads the guys are basically wiring by numbers... HRA1 to A2 and so on. I even write the wire destination inside the larger switch boxes so all you have to do is look and say "hey I need a switch leg there for the kitchen cans". We use the same type wire, boxes, panels, devices, service equipment, connectors and even hardware over and over again. We use two double wire spools loaded with 12/2 and another 1000ft reel at the panel. This allows us to pull five homeruns at once. Each spool is labeled so we can keep track of the circuits. Even all our tool bags are loaded with the same tools. We use story poles to mark heights. 1x6 ripped with a 46" top, a 16" notch, a handle, painted orange so in doesnt disappear in the lumber. Had em for years. My old boss asked me if I still had my old story pole, I said yes, he said they lose two a job. We use blue THHN for switch make up to identify the hot taps. It's cheaper than wasting 12/2 and cuts down on miswired switches. Well thats just a few of my secrets. I wish I could tell you more but the enemy may be watching.
Posted By: The Watt Doctor Re: New Home Estimate - 04/20/02 04:07 AM
arseegee,
Thanks for the info, and I understand about the enemy.

Standing the Midnight Post,
Doc
Posted By: golf junkie Re: New Home Estimate - 04/20/02 03:42 PM
Master66,

Welcome to the board!

We are in a situation similar to yours. In the last five years we have gone from 50/50, residential/commercial to 5/95. The only residential we do anymore is custom homes where a personal contact is involved.

The competition can sell residential jobs for less than our cost. There is more profit in commercial/industrial so that is the route we have taken.

It sounds like Arseegee has a very good system. In our rural market, residential construction is filled with small one or two man outfits who sqeeze us out on price.

FWIW,
GJ
Posted By: golf junkie Re: New Home Estimate - 04/20/02 03:47 PM
Arseegee said;
"All work is to my uniform standard. Any of my guys can make up a 4 gang box w/ one s.p., two three ways and a four way and I can't tell which guy it was. That way who ever comes back to trim out knows exactly what's going on."

Amen brother, Amen

GJ
Posted By: AndrusT Re: New Home Estimate - 04/20/02 05:11 PM
We do all residential and we can do them pretty fast. So key points that really help are..
Having proper tools.
a Method, 1 guy lays the house out, other guy, bangs up all over head and boxes.
1guy pulls HRs, as the other guy, drills the house out. The guy drilling, drills threw the walls not just over the box.

I think one of are most valued speed tools
is how the circuits are laid out. We do 'drops'. I see alot of companies keep the upstairs circuits upstairs and the downstairs circuits downstairs. We try and pull most our HR upstairs, and drop out of upstairs boxes to feed downstairs boxes. This makes pulling the upstairs a bigger job, but when you go downstairs you have drops over 80% of your boxes. There is less drilling and pulling. (also less drilling through lam beams)
Doing it this way you cant label your HRs specifiec rooms, you just have to label 'general lighting'. And when the gfci protecting bedroom plugs becomes more accepted this method will be less effective.
but it works for us. 2 guys can pull a 4500sq. ft. home, 15 recess, tall great room ceiling, j-tub, garage, bang up and cut in panel, in about 4 or 5 days. This also includes sitting in the van for an hour before working, and 1 hr lunch.
But we young guys.
Posted By: CTwireman Re: New Home Estimate - 04/20/02 06:46 PM
Is it really necessary to use 12/2 for all household circuits? It seems like overkill to me. I wired new houses for a while and we used 14/2 all the time and never had any problems with overloads (we didn't use it where it was forbidden by code, of course). Can somebody enlighten me?
Posted By: master66 Re: New Home Estimate - 04/20/02 07:06 PM
Fred, I did exactly what you do. I explained to the customer that the service was copper in conduit with a panel with a copper buss, no wire smaller than #12, dedicated circuits for all major appliances, etc...
I usually tell the customer its like buying a Cadillac instead of a Volkswagon. Either one will work but you pay more for quality. (No offense to Volkswagon).
When the customer called to let me know that they gave the job to someone else for under 4K, they told me jokingly that they couldn't afford a Cadillac so they had to settle for a Saturn...
I have always tried to cater more to higher end residential customers and facility owners that care about quality and want things done right but, it seems that they are getting fewer and further in between. The steady customers that we do have trust us immensly to do a good job that "meets or exceeds the requirements of the National Electrical Code" and that means a lot to me. I just wish that there were more people around here that thought that way.
Posted By: arseegee Re: New Home Estimate - 04/20/02 08:19 PM
AndrusT, a hour in the van? a hour for lunch? Are you guys hiring?
Posted By: sparks55 Re: New Home Estimate - 04/21/02 03:12 AM
I started out in the trade working for a company that wired over half of the houses built in a city of 50,000. The key was standardization and buying material in mass quantities. Rarely went to the supply house. Everything you needed to rough and trim was in the shop. Load the truck and go. Every house was wired with the same standard.

I wired a 6,500 s.f. ranch style home a couple of years ago. We did everything; 400A service with subpanels, lighting control, home automation, structured wiring, audio, networking, home theater. Bid the job directly to the homeowner. He said my electrical bid was 30 percent higher than the other bidder. I told him to hire the other guy. He said he wanted me to do the whole job. I told him my bid was final. We did the whole job. The house next door was even bigger than this one and had a 200A 40 circuit service, no subpanels, wires doubled up on breakers, and was wired by the low bidder on my project. Some people have a hard time understanding the cost of quality work.
Posted By: marixelectric_dfw Re: New Home Estimate - 03/03/04 12:48 AM
im in california and i have 3 price packages.

$3.25/sq. ft is basic
$4.00 upgraded
$4.75 premium
you can imagine what s included in the premium package. therefore, your 4406 for a basic installation in az may have been a little high. something more like $2.75-3.25/ sq.ft would have won you the bid. then once you get the job for the basics, introduce the homeowner to a wide range of extras he just cant live without. I've lost a few houses and sometimes i think i'm a little high, but for the most part i think i'm in the ballpark.
I would've bid your job at $3465
this includes your profit and overhead.
works good for me, i have an 80% hit ratio

[This message has been edited by marixelectric_dfw (edited 03-02-2004).]

[This message has been edited by marixelectric_dfw (edited 03-02-2004).]
Posted By: DougW Re: New Home Estimate - 03/05/04 02:18 AM
Master66 - your comparison (Caddy v. VW) reminds me of the customers that used to complain about my "expensive" receptacles. (When I first started out, I tried the (then) .39 Big Orange Box cheepos - found out quickly why the extra $ for "commercial grade" is worth it - to me AND my customers). I would give them refs to previous customers, and ask them to call, and find out when the last time was that they needed an outlet that I installed replaced due to normal use and abuse (teenagers).

I also would get the customers who would ask if "all that stuff" was really necessary - (you know, 12 AWG for 20A circuits... that sort of thing...) back when I was "handymanning". I'd tell the customers that the City might be able to get me for not being licensed, but not for doing non code compliant work.

Admittedly, I'm working in a much more "lower middle class" community, but you see the same "$ v. quality" mentality down here.

I have to agree with you - someone who spends $65k on a car that's "safer" for their family will choose the lower bidder with no research, and no background info to make an educated decision. Kinda makes you wonder.
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