ECN Forum Forums Code Related Discussion NEC & other Code issues Modifying panel to fit main breaker

Bob:
A little HUTC??

I think we all basically said the same thing above. I used verbal reserve, as I was leaning toward the common term for a 'meat cutter'.

As I said above, a red sticker. That being IF there was a permit. If not, definite $2000
fine for 'no permit' and a call to the BOE.

John

Alan had good advice, that's why I posted back this morning saying I was going to go MLO! I just happened to find a relavant bit of code to my original question in the process, and figured I'd post it.

And no, I'm not a licensed electrician, I'm an electrical engineer. As I'm fond of saying, engineers know WHAT to do, electricians know HOW to do it. As such, I can spend all day ironing out harmonics, selecting derated transformers and calculating positive/negative/zero sequence fault analysis, but I'm only legally able to *do* actual work on my own house- as usual, I'm biting off more than I can chew (framing, roofing, plumbing hvac, the works) but that's how you learn! I certainly wouldn't try to sell myself off as an electrician; my own house is one thing, maybe quietly help a neighbor with something minor, but I'd never take a job to wire up new construction or anything like that. But I'll be damned if I'm going to be an ivory tower EE who won't get his hands dirty That's partly why I'm doing this work myself, and mostly why I read this forum- gotta learn somehow, and if I do have a question on HOW to do something, I know this is a great place to ask so I don't end up doing something stupid

[This message has been edited by SteveFehr (edited 07-20-2006).]

Steve,


LOL!

Been in the Industry (Full Time) since 1983.
Began "Doing Both Sides" of the Trade in 1988, AKA: Working in the Field + Electrical Engineering... along with several other "sides"
(Proj. Management, Consultant, LAN & Security Systems Design, Gen. Contractor Rep. / Superintendent, Broom Pusher, etc.)

Have the same concept about the "Ivory Tower Only" thoughts - only it looks like I may be finding myself in the Office 95% of the time, instead of the "50%/50%" I have been used to doing.


ECN is a GREAT Forum!!!
Lots of knowledgeable Members, with very minimal "Gun Fire" (flames).

The "Regulars" in the NEC & other Code issues area, are very serious about compliance to all relevant Codes and NRTL Listings. This tends to draw some fire at times, along with replies which may appear as flames.

Unless a person comes in here and starts throwing fire around - acting like a complete moron; therefore removing any and all doubt from anyone's mind that the person, is indeed, an idiot; then all questions are "Helpfully Answered".

As an EE, you may be familiar to the flaming techniques, which are very common (and outright rude at times), in unmoderated, open public bulletin boards / forums - such as "alt . electrical . engineering" for example.
In some of those forums, the "Default Reaction" to many posted questions, is to classify them as "Stupid Questions".
In almost every case, the real problems were "Stupid Replies" from arrogant EEs with way too much time on their hands, "Ivory Towers Syndrome", and far too narrow mindedness!

Saw a flame war thread run over 100 posts, over a question regarding Tesla and a Low Power Generator!
Some of the insults thrown back at other EEs were funny (like extremely long worded expressions of how the "other EE" should take his/her Meds daily, and the occasional "On This Planet Things Work This Way, Not Sure Of How Things Work On Your Planet" replies), but far too many of them went so far overboard, flaming the original poster, it was just sickening!

That's one of the main reasons I frequent ECN - none of that type of Garbage is tolerated!
(actually, the highest ranking reasons are knowledge base + integrity of Members, and the wide range of experiences + topics of discussion with Members).

This concludes today's Soapbox Speech; You may now resume normally scheduled tasks!


Scott35

and:


Very well said, Scott!! I for one have always felt welcome here, (I'm a cinema tech with some electrician experience) and even on the most "flammable" topics (Shared neutrals for example), the debates have always been very opinionated (not in a bad way) yet conducted with tact and mutual respect.

I too have seen some of the flame wars on other sites (one in particular related to the cinema biz) get wayyyy out of hand before the mods even attempt to step in. But not here!!

Back on topic, I have run across a few installations where the panel's deadfront has been modified. The modification has almost always been a piece of heavy guage sheet steel (at least as thick as the deadfront) cut to fit snugly around the breaker opening and securely riveted in place.

To play devil's advocate, and put on an AHJ hat:

Is it to Code?: Most likely not. {But I seem to recall seeing something in my '99 book that addressed this issue specifically...}

Is it unsafe?: Again, most likely not.

Would I use my authority to accept it?: Yes, I would pass it.

But the one thing I would most be concerned about, rather than the modification of the deadfront is:

Is the breaker in question suitable for use in that panel/application? In both trip current rating and AIC capability?

And finally:

What about a situation where the entire deadfront was custom cut and replaced the original? {Again with the premise that it is of at least as heavy guage steel as the original.}

Just goes to show that the NEC isn't perfect, but then again, who or what is?

Slick I have to ask you.

Would you expect to see this on a new installation?

This is the kind of repair that if I was an inspector would surly consider on an obsolete panel but would not consider if a new installation.

The fact that the panel cover had to be modified like this screams that something is not right.

The panel, the breaker, the cover....one or more of these items is not the right part and we should not be looking for a workaround.

No flames, just my professional opinion, Bob

Didn't bite on this earlier, but if the panel had an opening in the wrong spot, wouldn't it suggest that the breaker for a Main apllication was wrong? Or that the equipment wasn't suitable as service equipment? That would be my first guess.....

iwire:

No flame offence taken

Yes, you're right of course, on a NEW panel installation I would also not find such a modification acceptable. So a red sticker it would be.

But on older equipment or a repair of obsolete but still adequately serviceable equipment, I would weigh the overall picture before passing or failing the situation.


Does that mean you might pass such a modification, given the conditions I mentioned in my first post?

This is why I love it here, professionals bringing up all the possible variables and options.

This panel was packaged as a Main Lug panel with Ground Bar, convertable to a Main Breaker panel. Lowes only carries one main breaker, so I assumed it would fit, and it does, sort of. Attached are photos of the panel with the breaker on top- it will fit perfectly over the main lug bolts. And I didn't tear the paper off the breaker, but I'd imagine the main lugs will likewise fit perfectly on the breaker. As you can tell from the dead front, though, it's not going to fit...

<IMG SRC=\"http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/3549/img6145qq0.th.jpg\"> <IMG SRC=\"http://img73.imageshack.us/img73/1056/img6146nx2.th.jpg\"> <IMG SRC=\"http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/8866/img6147pn9.th.jpg\">

To reiterate, it's moot, I'm going to return the breaker and connect it MLO, but it's still an interesting conundrum!

If any of ya'll spot any other violations in there, feel free to point them out now while it's easy to fix I know I need to stick another 2x4 within 12" of the top of the box yet to secure the NM, just haven't gotten around to it yet.

[This message has been edited by SteveFehr (edited 07-23-2006).]

Steve:
Something's not right here.........
200 amp rated panel? Using as a sub-panel; OK!....with 125 amp feeder?? (as you said)
Why the 200 amp "main"????

Without reading the label on the Siemens panel you installed, and based on the cover in the photos......Something's not right!!

Either:
You have wrong 'Main', that you don't need.
You have wrong cover.
You have wrong panel.
"MLO" panel or "convertable" panels usually DO NOT come with the KO out for the 'Main'

As stated above by others, for a repair type job, a butchered cover MAY be acceptable, but on a 'NEW' panel install, NOT Acceptable.

John

You have the wrong breaker! The breaker you purchased (MBK200) is for replacement use in older loadcenters. The MBK200A is a completely different design. Look at the breaker picture just below the breaker you currently have in the link you posted. It’s marked EQ869X.

Modifying the cover would be the least of your problems trying to use this breaker. How would you connect the incoming feeder conductors? The breaker you have is designed for bussed connections on the line and load side.

Curt