ECN Forum Forums Code Related Discussion NEC & other Code issues to GFIor not to is the question

Again I point out that even if you live in an area with a State "OSHA" you are still bound by the same rules or stricter rules than what Federal OHSA has.

Your State can not 'take away' the requirement for PPE or the requirement for MSDS availability.

They can either match or exceed the Federal rules.



[This message has been edited by iwire (edited 07-16-2006).]

Iwire... Some things are so basic as to defy a specific citation.

The Constitution is a document that defines, limits, and assigns powers, as it's primary purpose. That is what makes it truly revolutionary.
Nonetheless, I believe it is the Tenth ammendment that clarifies matters, where is explicitly states that what is not specifically assigned to the Federal Government belongs to the states, or the people.

In similar manner, the Constitution has as its' basic framework a "sepraation of powers" doctrine; that is, powere are specifically assigned, and are not up for grabs by just any "government" entity.

Folks who are not clear on these points often express amazement when they find there is no Federal "murder" law. Indeed, for there to be such related laws, Congress has seen the need to narrowly restrict the Federal laws so as to not overlap with local laws; they will apply to Federal personnel, on Federal property, etc.

In it's landmark insurance case (Roosevelt era), the Supreme court muddied the waters considerably with a murky decision that failed to clearly assign insurance regulation to "interstate commerce," or not.

It has become typical of Federal statutes to "encourage" States to pass similar legislation themselves. This step is unnecessary, except for the "separation of powers" doctrine.

Likewise, Federal contracts contain pages of clauses specifing that you agree to various Federal rules... again, not necessary if the rules are a matter of "law."

"Public safety?" Spare me. That excuse can be, and has, been abused in the grossest of ways. That's why 'warrants' were invented in the first place. To exert that sort of authority, the governemnt needs a specific complaint, specifying an imminent danger... a simple, routine "compliance inspection" is not sufficient.

Apart from other regulatory bodies, OSHA litigatd many of these issues early in its' existance, and lost time and again. Warrantless searches? Nope. Application everywhere? Nope. Superior to, say, the USDA? Nope.

Now, I think we're getting off on a tangent. For this reason, I have started a related thread in the Safety & Health forum.

Reno, do you have any back up for the "25" rule you mentioned you had heard of?

Roger



[This message has been edited by Roger (edited 07-16-2006).]

No, Roger, I do not have a direct cite. I first heard of it from a customer... who benefited when various complaints were dismissed by Federal agencies as soon as it was determined he was 'under the limit.'

Most courts now seem to say the 14th amendment has trumped the 9th and 10th. That allows the feds to encroach on things that were always considered "state's rights". The states can't infringe on our federally granted rights like the right to be arrested for going over 55 mph or the right to be arrested for medical marijauna.
They are just looking out for us.

John heres the thing.

1)We all know OSHA fines are expensive.

2)Many ECs are in fact small shops.

3)Many ECs come here to ECN for advice.

4)We have info with references from both Greg and myself that OSHA applies to all employees.

That being said I am not at all comfortable with someone saying 'OHSA does not apply to small shops becuse'....


This is weak hearsay.

I will continue to maintain that OSHA applies to all employees until shown reference from OSHA or at least a Gvt. agency that says otherwise.

The stakes are to high here to mislead people.

I also have to ask a question.

Do you really believe that the fact the someone works for a shop of 24 people that they are not required to be protected from work place hazards?

We are not talking about Health care benefits or paid vacations.

We are talking about an employers requirement to provide a safe work place.

Bob

In Michigan, we have MiOSHA which is OSHA with a Michigan spin on it. I would say that a small Electrical Contractor would not get a visit from MiOSHA - unless there was a complaint. I have worked in large shops (over 100 people) and we used to get annual, unannounced inspection.
Now the municipality I inspect for has a maintenance department consisting of 2 people and they had a visit from MiOSHA last year for an unknown reason?? Maybe because they are an enforcement entity.
Let something happen where someone gets injured or killed and that's when MiOSHA shows up to investigate. Like yellow on a bee- Like a moth to a flame- Like stink on s**t. And I'm glad they do

George, that is the pattern here too. Nobody ever sees OSHA until an accident investigation "Go Team" shows up, then everyone gets a ticket for something.
The go team is pretty much like speed trap cops and meter maids. They just write tickets all day. It may not really be a "quota" but they certainly have "productivity" guidelines.

I also agree with George Little.

Small shops won't see OSHA until an accident happens.

At that point they will show up and you will find that the fines are just as high for small shops.

Bob

Here CalOHSA has a program, who knows they may have it elsewhere? But it works like this.... You think you might have a violation, and they send a consultant to you FREE, and they cant bust you for what ever they find.... Just help you set a up a program to change it in the future.... My last shop did it, very edjucational.... If you're in CA check it out: http://www.dir.ca.gov/DOSH/consultation.html