ECN Forum Forums Code Related Discussion NEC & other Code issues GFCI readily accessible?

You can argue either way:
A GFCI is a switch
It disconnects the power - but then so does partially unscrewing a light bulb (8' up)

A GFCI is not a switch
It is not intended to be used as a regular means of connection and isolation (can not easily determine if power is connected or isolated based on the physical status of the switch (buttons)

Reading the same line that iwire was reading:


Make it pretty clear to me that 404.1 does _not_ apply to all devices which may possibly be used as switches.

In particular, the scope calls out 'circuit breakers were used as switches'. While a circuit breaker is clearly mechanically a switch, 404.1 only applies if the circuit breaker is used in a switching application.

I believe that the same point could be made for a GFCI. If it is used in an application to turn loads on and off, then IMHO it is a switch and 404 applies. If, on the other hand, it is used as a circuit protection device, then IMHO 404 does not apply.

If 404.1 applies to anything that could be used as a switch, then it applies to plugs, receptacles, and screw shell lamp holders, among other 'non-switch' devices.

-Jon

Winnie - I follow your logic to a point. But when a GFCI device says "Switch" on the device, It's a switch period. It's only when CB's are used as switches that 404 applies. Circuit breakers do not say switch on them. Receptacles do not say switch on them. Bulb holders do not say switch on them. Neither bulb holders or receptacles are switches.

OK, again I have to agree with Bob; I vote for the GFI being accessable, without having to remove an 'access panel' or using a ladder.

As to the jacuzzi tub, a single receptacle is installed under the tub, as it is a dedicated circuit, and a faceless gfi device is installed on a wall. Tubs with pump & heater, get two single recepts & two faceless
That is how it's done, and approved.

John

PS: Let me throw in the P&S combo device, gfi single recept and a sp switch on 1 yoke.
Anybody seen/use them??

BTW, after 4 years of AHJ in one town, I think I finally know all the locations for the GFI's, based on what EC wired the house.

Since we are all taking sides, I want to play on Winnie's team. I agree that 404.1 says: "circuit breakers used as switches". This in itself recognizes that a circuit breaker serves a different function (overcurrent and fault protection)unless it is installed for use as a switch. A GFI serves a different function (ground fault protection) unless it were installed to serve as a switch. I find it hard to believe that a GFI mounted in a soffit was intended for use as a switch.

And as HotLine 1 points out, P&S makes a combo unit: a GFI with a switch on the same yoke. If a GFI is a switch, then why do they make the combo unit with a switch attached?

Before I help start a firefight.....
I'm under the inpression that the P&S device is mainly intended to replace a switch/recept combo in 'old work', I can say I have not seen one installed.

Reason I brought one into the office was to do a 'show & tell'. One EC thought about wiring the switch to control the recept, and use it for the jacuzzi. (Hmmmm??)..

John

I'm not going to 'take sides' on this one in the sense of 'this is the correct answer'. I was trying to make a point along the lines of iwire's approach of 'this is a reasonable read of the code, go read it yourself'

Frankly I would _prefer_ an AHJ to be able to pull article 404 out and be able to say 'put that GFCI somewhere where a human can actually use it'.

If we presume that a GFCI is a switch, I believe that it is still reasonable to install a GFCI under the soffit or other high up location, under 404.8(A)Exception 3. Basically a high up, out of the way GFCI feeding equipment that is high up and out of the way is as reasonable as an inaccessible switch next to a bit of inaccessible equipment.

Under this interpretation, this same GFCI feeding downstream grade level receptacles would be a violation. The original post was about a pretty ugly design; GFCI that requires a ladder to get to, feeding receptacles at grade level. Given extension cords and wet, these GFCIs are likely to trip frequently.

-Jon

OK, I'm moving from Winnie's team to free-agent status. But I believe in the original post if the GFI were mounted in the soffit, it was not intended for use as a switch...actually, I'm not real sure what it would be intended for, but I'd guess maybe Xmas lights along the edge of the roof, making the use a receptacle.

The GFCI was mounted in the soffit because that was where he transitioned from the interior wiring method to plastic raceway. From there it went to a remote building with outlets at grade.