ECN Forum Forums Code Related Discussion NEC & other Code issues Damaged outlets

Can I get in on that insurance too?

It would be much safer to load the circuit gradually to an overload to get the breaker to trip. Shorting it could damage you and the conductors.

Dave

It would be even safer to use a voltage detector, multimeter, wiggie, or other pratical and safe means, rather than to "short" the circuit. But as a pratical means when lockout tagout is not available, once you are sure a circuit is not live, intentional short circuit bolting can help you if somebody trys to energize the circuit while you are working on it. He gets the kaboom on his end. This last little tip is more for work on panels, transformers, switchgear and the like. Best bang for the buck is lockout-tagout.

Was this advice meant in jest? I would hope so. While I agree that someone who intentionally resets a breaker/closes a disconnect/whatever is not playing with a full deck, this borders on the criminally dangerous. A "kaboom on his end" can have very serious consequences.

IMHO, there would be no excuse for such a thing. (POCO workers take note, I'm not condemming the practice by utilities, the circumstances are very different.) Every electrician would likely have some method to help lockout a breaker, panel or disconnect on his truck, even if it's a piece of #10 solid twisted through the locking hole, with a handmade tag. Better to do that than risk serious injury/damage due to a bolted short.

And what happens if you forget to clear your short? You may be the one getting the kaboom.

Finally, the safest work practice is to treat everything as live, no matter what!


Best advice of all! Thumbs up on that!

edited html, then spellin

[This message has been edited by mxslick (edited 08-30-2005).]

[This message has been edited by mxslick (edited 08-30-2005).]

Joe,
I'm not criticizing anyone in the least. They're doing a terrific job with the information they have. I'm simply trying to use the money that could be saved here for more important issues, such as GFCI protection in kitchens etc.. I was simply hoping to get feedback on whether or not it was a safety issue. We'd never want to ignore these outlets if they are a safety issue.
Thanks, And by the way the best way is lock-out tag-out and then use a multimeter or like device to ensure the power is truly off.

You guys are absolutely correct, and I was certainly less than clear. I did not mean to use shorting to trip breakers, but just as a last assurance that the circuit is dead.

When I am about to handle wiring on a circuit I have locked out, or otherwise "should" be dead, I still touch each hot wire to ground or neutral before handling the bare ends.

I mentioned "As long as you're replacing the old receptacles anyway..." because the arc will discolor the receptacle when you discover the hard way you missed a breaker.

Posted by Mxslick "IMHO, there would be no excuse for such a thing. (POCO workers take note, I'm not condemming the practice by utilities, the circumstances are very different."

I sat across a desk from a job applicant once. He had some gnarly looking scars on his forarms. I asked him if it was electrical related. He then told me about how he and his buddy who died from it were servicing a transformer at our nearby naval base when a chief petty officer decided to cut the lock off and re energise the main, not knowing the circuit was still bieng worked on. Nowadays this sort of thing would be unheard of at any navy facility due to the high level of education the navy provides to it's personel, but it might elesewhere. My first instructor who himself was an ex salt used to tell us to wrap 2" chain around switchgear bus when servicing it just to prevent such an event from killing us. It was his words to give the "kaboom" to the idiot who cuts off the lock. Yesterday I read about a similar incident in Canada where a lock was cut on a main breaker for converyor belt at a large plant, which sent a maintenence worker into a chute and then into process machinery. They also thought the repair was completed without properly checking first. That one resulted in Jail for the guilty party.

I hadn't read Larry's post very well before my comment. I use a circuit tracer to locate circuits, but am also wary of multi-wire circuits. After using a non-contact tester as a second test, I also sometimes touch a nuetral to the box as a last measure. This is after taking shocks from neutrals in the past thinking all was off.

Dave

I have read so many threads regarding "people" unknowingly energizing a circuit that is being worked on or worse yet, energizing a locked out/tagged out circuit by defeating LOTO device... This made me think of a simple invention (If someone would like to take it to market, be my guest!) Or better yet - make a homemade version and protect yourselfs now! Here it is: Build a compact, LOUD! siren into a small box with an appropriatly sized transformer for the panel being worked on to power siren. The device would have three wires with clips on each lead. This device could be placed inside of the panel being worked on. Two clip leads could be attached to a circuit that is not being serviced for continuous power. The third (sensing) lead would be clipped onto the breaker screw that is being serviced. When someone energizes this now (monitored) circuit that is being worked on, the siren would scream thru the conduits allerting the electrician of imminent danger. A simple control circuit could also be added so that even if the person who, surprized by the now (screaming) energized circuit quickly turns off the circuit, the siren would continue to scream untill the sparky resets it! If we wanted to get real fancy, one could add a transmitter at the panel with a belt worn receiver/pager to allert the electrician who is too far away from the panel to hear the siren. Hell, why not even add a cheap small digital camera to photograph the suckers - No question of "who did it" then! Take care! J.-

Problem Sponge is that by the time you hear the alarm you're already dead or caught up in the piece of equipment you're working on.
Safety education is still the best medicine for the ill.

Bogger -
Well... I guess that would be true if you were hanging onto those bare wires 100% of the time the circuit was locked out. Many times, during my current apprenticeship for example, I am moving a ladder from junction to junction, along with other duties while I'm working the circuit. Plenty of "Non-contact time" to possibly let me know before I open that next box. I am surprized that no-one has built such a simple device yet... Thanks for the response. J.-

[This message has been edited by sponge (edited 09-01-2005).]